8.14 Tara & Michelle: Goodbye Michelle!

The goodbye you can't miss! Michelle returns to the mic with Tara for a special, unfiltered conversation you won’t want to miss. From a sneak peek into her upcoming novel to never-before-told stories about starting Books & Beyond, this episode is part milestone, part behind-the-scenes tell-all.

They relive their very first author interview, reveal the moments that put the show on the map, and spill on their favorite guests. Plus, a candid look at how life, books, and the literary world have changed, from India to New Zealand.

If you’ve been here since the beginning, this one’s going to hit hard. If you’re new, this is where you start!

Books and Authors mentioned in this episode:

• GET OUT: The Gay Man’s Guide to Coming Out and Going Out - Aniruddha Mahale
• Why Men Rape - Tara Kaushal
• Heavy Metal: How a Global Corporation Poisoned Kodaikanal - Ameer Shahul
• The Namesake - Jhumpa Lahiri
• Delirious - Damien Wilkins
• See How They Fall - Rachel Paris
• Isobar Precinct - Angelique Kasmara
• Orbital - Samantha Harvey
• Brooklyn - Colm Toibin
• Ghachar Ghochar - Vivek Shanbhag
• The Nutmeg’s Curse: Parables for a Planet in Crisis - Amitav Ghosh
• Beautiful Thing - Sonia Faleiro
• Two Good Girls - Sonia Faleiro
• Meow Meow - Srinath Rao
• Lady Doctors: The Untold Stories of India’s First Women in Medicine - Kavitha Rao
• Daughters of the Sun - Ira Mukhoty
• The Secret of More: A Novel - Tejaswini Apte-Rahm
• The Blue Bar (Blue Mumbai Thrillers Book 1) - Damyanti Biswas
• 1950s Housewife: Marriage and Homemaking in the 1950s - Sheila Hardy
• The Most - Jessica Anthony

Michelle and Tara’s favorite episodes:

• 5.36 Vivek Shanbhag: Decoding Sakina’s Kiss, Ghachar Ghochar & Kannada Literature
• 2.9 Rheea Mukherjee: Exploring Unconventional Relationships and Lives Through Fiction
• 4.2 Amitav Ghosh: Highlighting The Reality Of Climate Change
• 1.12 Amrita Mahale: On Writing A Literary Love Story Set In Bombay
• 5.22 Chitra Divakaruni: Meet Phenomenal Indian Women Through Partition, Migration, and Mythology
• 4.17 Amitava Kumar: Decoding The Lives Of Writers
• 5.13 Damodar Mauzo: Chronicling Goan culture for over 50 years in Konkani
• 3.5 Sonia Faleiro: Uncovering Crime Against Women In Uttar Pradesh
• 5.27 Srinath Rao: Inside the Life of a Crime Reporter in Mumbai
• 3.13 Janaki Lenin: Bringing The Wildlife Into Every House Through Writing
• 4.3 Kavitha Rao: Chronicling The Lives Of India’s First Women Doctors
• 2.2 Ira Mukhoty: Reviving Forgotten Stories
• 5.24 Tejaswini Apte-Rahm: Time Travel to Bombay’s Silent Film Era
• 5.18 Bora Chung: Cursed Bunnies, Ghosts, and Dark Lore of South Korea

Movie mentioned in this episode:

• Don’t Worry Darling

Upcoming Bound Retreats
Immersive, one-of-a-kind literary experiences that take writers into the heart of India’s most breathtaking landscapes.

1. Wanderlust Travel Writing Retreat in Chetinad | 16 - 21 September 
2. Whimsy Fiction Writing Retreat in Coonoor | 8 - 12 October 

Learn more: https://boundindia.com/retreats/ 

Apply to all retreats: http://bit.ly/44TzYpY 

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

Tara Khandelwal: 0:51

Foreign Hi everyone. Welcome back to Books and Beyond. So today is a very special episode and a little bit sad as well. But if you're new to our podcast, first of all, welcome and make sure to follow us on Spotify and Apple podcasts, and don't forget to rate us. So let's get into it. For some of you loyal listeners who've been with us since the start, you might be wondering, Where did Michelle go? Well, Michelle has been doing something incredibly exciting. She's all the way in New Zealand right now, pursuing her MFA and working on her upcoming novel. I really miss her so much on the show, but luckily, she's here with us today. And for those of you listening or tearing up at this farewell, don't worry, this is not goodbye. We will have Michelle back, maybe as a host again, to interview more authors and even as an author herself. So this is not goodbye. Hi, Michelle. Hi Tara,

Michelle D'costa: 1:44

thank you for that. Yes, I really hope this is not a farewell, because I think the podcast has been one of the most exciting things that we have done, you know. I mean, we've done a lot of things at bound, but I think the podcast has been really, really fun, and especially just sort of, you know, discovering so many different writers in India. And I really miss that, honestly, but I have been very busy here, yes, so I have been working on my MFA, and this is sort of like a dream come true, I think, for all our followers who know I've been writing for a very long time, and I always wondered, would I ever get a chance to work on my novel, you know, through an MFA program. And I can say that, you know, my dream has come true. So I'm working on my second novel right now, and it's sort of like halfway through, so I'm not done, so I intend to sort of finish the novel by the end of the year. And it's been a very interesting journey for me as a writer, like, not just through the program, but I think just through, you know, living in a very different part of the world. I think it has been very refreshing for me to sort of, you know, just like, get some time out to like work on my novel with other writers. So like, we were, like a cohort of around 10 writers and a very small group, and sort of, you know, very interesting on how, you know, we did like the peer review and stuff. And there were a lot of moments where I missed, you know, our retreats, because it just got me to this flashback where we went to Goa on our retreats, and we would have peer reviews and all of that. But yeah, it's been fun.

Tara Khandelwal: 3:14

Yeah, that's so exciting. And, you know, I've been seeing your journey in New Zealand so far, and it's continuing as well. And I also want to talk more about sort of the writing scene in New Zealand, because I don't know much about that. But before that, you know this novel that even working on, I know a little bit about it, but can you tell our listeners a little bit about what the book is about?

Michelle D'costa: 3:35

Yeah, so, um, it is about an arranged marriage that really doesn't sort of plan out the way the bride and the groom intended to, right? So it, it's actually written entirely in second person narration. And for those who don't know what that means, the entire book, you know, uses the word you, so it doesn't use i or doesn't use he, she or they, but it's you. So it's kind of like something that I've experimented with for a long time. You know that I've written a lot of short stories in second person, but this book, the entire book is from the voice of a female protagonist, a woman in her 30s who's actually really struggling to find a partner. And then finally, she settles for someone like, you know, without going into details you know, to avoid spoilers, she settles for someone and then once they get married, and once they actually migrate to the Middle East, that's when a lot of secrets unfold, and then, yeah, so the reader finds out a lot of details through the novel. So I think through this novel, I'm sort of exploring a lot of things, actually, not just the arranged marriage system, but also, I think, really heavy topics like marital rape and also, sort of, you know, like what hyper, hyper vigilant parenting can do, you know, very religious parenting can do. So a lot of themes. I know it sounds very nerdy right now, but I do hope when the book, you know, hopefully, like when it's done and when it comes out into the world. I do hope that people will enjoy the story. Because I think for me, the the biggest aim is to sort of make it entertaining at the end of the day, you know, thought provoking, yes. But also like, hopefully it should be entertaining, yeah. And I hope you like it too, Tara, because I know that you like love stories. Like, literally, love stories. So I mean, this is technically not a love story, but it explores like, you know, like layers to like romantic relationships.

Tara Khandelwal: 5:33

I think what you were talking about, I think it's right up my alley, you know, because all of the themes, these are some things that we also talk about a lot, right? And we've spoken about it a lot with the kind of authors we've chosen and the books that we've read together. So I think these are themes that are very interesting. Stick to me as well. And I know how much sort of like of a labor of love this book has been, because I know how much sort of like effort also it's been for you to take it ahead.

Michelle D'costa: 5:56

Yeah. So, you know, as you know, Tara, it's been like a labor of love. It's been so much like, you know, time, energy and thought, like, put into it. So I definitely want to see it through to the end, because if there's one thing that I really don't like is leaving projects halfway. So I do think that, you know, every book has its own journey and needs, like, you know, time of its own. So what I'm trying to do is actually like, focus and take time out just to finish the book, because I'm just halfway through. So yeah, so I think that's why I sort of have to say bye right now for the podcast. But I don't see it as an end. I really do hope you know that I get to come back. I get to sort of interview more interesting writers. And just seeing the number of writers coming out with amazing stuff right now in India, it just makes me sort of really miss it. But I do want to, like, you know, take some time out to, just like, finish the novel.

Tara Khandelwal: 6:49

No, absolutely, I know how much sort of you know this means to you, and I can't wait to have both the books out because, because, you know, obviously you'll be coming back here, we'll be interviewing a lot of people, but you'll be coming back here as an author, which I think, you know, is super special, not only for me, but also for listeners who've heard you on the last eight years talk about and we've been doing this podcast for eight years, and that's so wild to think about. And who have been hearing you talk about this writing journey. So to see that come to fruition, I think, is going to be very fulfilling for not only sort of me and you, but everyone who's been listening in as well and come and coming, and coming back to Books and Beyond. You know, it's interesting, because I think we had 150 160 episodes in we have done this for eight years. We have interviewed the biggest of the biggest, you know, names like Amitabh, shitra, Banerjee, Jerry Pinto, but also we've discovered, and for me, that's the most interesting part of what we do is and that's what I plan to continue, you know, doing as well, is to discover these new voices and take new Indian books to our audiences, because we really want to promote the culture of reading. As you said, there's so much coming out in India today, in so many themes and so many stories. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa: 8:13

and I want to add here Tara that for me, like, you know, when I was just thinking about thinking back on all the seasons that we have recorded for me, you know, what has been like, the biggest sort of takeaway? Because I think you know that I'm a big, avid fiction reader, so no one has to sort of tell me to go and pick up fiction. I'll go, and that's what I'm doing. Actually, almost every day I go to the Auckland Public Library instead of borrow books. I might not end up reading all of them, but, you know, it's just, it's a thrill. It's sort of, you know, it's just a high that I get so but, but one thing that sort of was really interesting for me throughout the podcast is that I was really fascinated with the non fiction that came out, right? So I think some books that that come to mind is get out by Anirudh mohale. Then, you know, Tara Kaushal lab, but why men rape? Then I think heavy metal by Amir Shah. So these are just a few books, but for me, I think if it was not for the podcast, I would have just thought, you know, naturally picked up these non fiction books, and I'm so glad I did, and now it's definitely made me more aware of non fiction, and at least the way they've the way they write it, because what I've seen over the past few years is that it's not just the topic, but it's the approach to The topic that I find really fascinating. So everyone has their own style, you know, even though they are journalists, even though they are writers, everyone has their own unique approach to it. For me, that's sort of been the most interesting part. I think,

Tara Khandelwal: 9:40

no, absolutely, yeah, that unique approach. I think we both learned so much. Like, you know, when we first started out, we didn't know much about books or sports, for example, and I don't know about poetry, and we really also try to push ourselves through the podcast to read more and to read widely, because that's what we're trying to promote as well. And you know, so much has changed between then and now with podcasts, with the podcast, with life bound. You know, we started this in 2019 so not eight years, but six, six years, which is a long, long time. So where do you think you know? How do you have? How do you think you know you've changed as a person? Let's use this type of reflective, you know, and like reminiscing from that first podcast, which we did, you know. And Manu Pillai was the first guest that we had, and he was so sweet, and he agreed to come and we recorded it in person, and that was the first episode we released. And we couldn't have imagined that Books and Beyond would do so well, that authors would come to us, you know, wanting us to feature them where it was so difficult to get those first few authors. Yeah, how like, let's talk about, let's go to our memory lane. Yeah.

Michelle D'costa: 10:48

Yeah, yeah. I think for me, yeah, it has definitely really sort of enriched me as an interviewer. Because, you know, right, I used to interview authors before, like on my blog, which was a very written medium, and then, you know, when we started rehearsing, going to the studio to record, and then moving online in the pandemic, I think it has been very interesting, like this. I think the audio visual medium is definitely something that's going to just grow from now on, right? Like, like, I mean, though we have print, obviously, but I also think that audio visual has a lot of potential. And for me, that's something that I think that was a very, really interesting change as an interviewer, and I think as a person, I think just, you know, discussing the scripts with you, reading co reading books with you, has been super interesting. Because I think let's say, for example, see if it's let's say one person you will have, you know, very like you will have a very particular approach, for example, right, to pick books, to interview authors. But I think when you have two minds, and when you discuss it, it becomes, you know, way more entertaining, way more interesting. And I just love the bits where, you know, we agreed on things. But what I also like is that you notice some things that I didn't, and I noticed things that you didn't. And I think for me, that has been a very interesting

Tara Khandelwal: 12:03

approach. I think it's always like, really fun to sort of read a book with somebody, to discuss it with someone I definitely wasn't. I feel like I've grown a lot as an interviewer, and I can see things in books that I didn't before, and I can sort of see things in people that I didn't before, and really try and understand how to get you know, really good answers from them, get the best out of them, and get you know more interesting anecdotes from them, because at the end of the day, we want this podcast to be interesting as well. So I think for me, yeah, the biggest takeaway has been the quality of the conversations that I feel you know, were really good because we worked. I remember the first season we a lot of the authors did actually, like two or three takes with us before we published episodes, because we were new at that time. So we needed the practice. And we sat and printed out every transcript, you know, and we edited it three or four times. I still remember we spent so much time editing this podcast, rehearsing. We did many, many script iterations till we finally got so it's been a lot of work, I think, to get that format right, and that format because of the work we did. Think we spent six months before we even published the first episode. And I think because we did that groundwork, you know, that format has pretty much sort of stuck on. It did really well, but we've also managed to iterate, you know, within that format, and always keep experimenting and pushing boundaries. So for me, I think definitely becoming a better interviewer, seeing, as you said, new aspects, new angles, and consistently sort of also going beyond the comfort zone. So for example, you know, even in the coming episodes, the kind of curation, the kind of books that you know your I am able to pick or see the quality of the conversations I feel at least and I hope the listeners will agree, is a lot deeper now, which I personally enjoy, because I think even when we read, we want to we want to ask ourselves questions. We want to be stimulated, and that's one of the things that books do. And secondly, it's a lot of fun, because there's so many stories behind the stories, behind the stories. And some of the stories are quite wild, yeah.

Michelle D'costa: 14:13

And also that makes me just think about all the, like, different kind of episodes we have done, just so many different topics, you know, like, I think, yeah, I think especially, like interviewing with you, it's been interesting because, you know, like stories, like entrepreneurial stories, for example, you know, like something that maybe I would have not, you know, ordinarily gone for. I think it's super interesting because we have not only interviewed like authors who are writers. I think for me, what's also interesting is because I am a writer, I often like, of course, like love to know the approach of other writers. But what's also refreshing is when you get to meet a writer who's not conventionally, a writer, right? Who, probably, you know, who has a very different day job, or, let's say, for example, who's an entrepreneur, or, you know, like, like, we have done books on, like, leadership. We have done books on different kinds of thinking, which I think is, is really interesting, right? Because I think everyone has a different approach, but also everyone has a different background. So whenever I like, you know, come on a podcast. I'm like, Okay, I want to know, you know, when did that all start? What was the inspiration? So I think it's just, it's, it's curiosity that sort of drives it, but it's made it super interesting over the years. Because I also feel that story, like certain trends have been changing in storytelling, and you must have noticed it, right? So I do think that we have more of nonfiction, and maybe I can give you a little more insight into a New Zealand storytelling. Because over here, when I came here, I found it very interesting that it's not just, you know, let's say stories from like a particular community or a particular, you know, age group, and all of that, you have different kinds of stories. So for example. People have been introduced to stories about Maori people, right? So they, you know, they are the indigenous people here and and it's very interesting to read their stories as well. So you do get, I would say, different insights, you know, and it's sort of like, I would say more insight into the Pacific part of the world. So over here, that's definitely, I think there's more space for different kinds of stories. And I think that's been that's been very interesting to discover.

Tara Khandelwal: 16:14

Actually, I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the New Zealand writing scene, because that's something I don't think in this podcast that we've explored. We've not got there yet. I certainly intend to sort of explore from more from all over the world we've explored, you know, the subcontinent, a lot of Sri Lankan, Nepali, Pakistani, books, different parts of India, different, you know, breadths of India, but I really don't know much about the New Zealand literary scene. So is there a very thriving publishing scene? Is it bigger than India's? And when you say different kind of stories, what kinds of things you know are the big publishing houses there? I don't know anything. Please educate me?

Michelle D'costa: 16:49

Sure? Yeah, I would say it is. It's pretty much, I would say you're pretty much like India, in a way, where you have big publishing houses, like Penguin, you know, and at the same time you also have small presses, indie presses, who come out with, like, poetry, they come out with little, you know, memoirs and all of that. Yeah, I do think that it there's like a variety of voices here. So for example, you do have different presses that publish very academic work, right? So there are, like university presses that come out with academic work. But on the other hand, you also have very interesting stories, like why a young adult is booming. So there's a lot about that. Then there's a lot of space for Maori voices. There's a lot of space for women and queer writers, which is something that I find very interesting. So definitely, I would say publishing is super interesting in New Zealand. But there's also another observation that over here, there's a very large readership of books that are published in the US and in the UK, just like India, yeah. So they are very popular. So if you look at the charts, these books sort of like, you know, top the chart. So it's more like international publishing. So a lot of readers love, you know, let's say authors like Jody pickle or or, you know, John Grisham or James Patterson, and all the, all the, you know, most famous names. So that's something, and it has a very avid reading culture. I will say that whenever I go out, like, you know, it could be a park, it could be a mall, it could be a museum, or, you know, a library, whatever people are always reading. And that, for me is, like, super interesting. Of course, it could be, like, different genres, but definitely, there's a reading culture here, yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 18:29

I remember when I went to the UK and in the tube on in the tunnels, there were posters of books, you know, like billboards of books. And I was like, Oh, wow. Like, such a great reading culture. There must be that the publishers can afford to put billboards of books. I've never seen a billboard of a book in India. But in terms of, like, sort of, you said, yeah. Like one thing, I understand, it's an English speaking population, so books from the UK and the US, you know, they're still sort of popular all over the world, but in terms of, you know, the topics that you discover that you were talking about within New Zealand, like, Can you name a few books and tell me what, what they're about that are interesting from New Zealand?

Michelle D'costa: 19:06

Um, yeah. So on three books, okay, let me think. All right, I think the first one that comes to mind is delirious by Damian Wilkins. He's actually the director of the MFA program at University of Victoria, University of Victoria Wellington, all right, and the book won, like the Occam Book Awards this time, and just the excerpt from what was like read out in the event, I was like, Okay, I have to read this book. And it's so much in demand that if you go to the library, it's like, a lot of people have already requested it, so you're like, waiting in the queue. So I think it's very interesting, because it's about two elderly people and sort of how they navigate life, like, you know, like, sort of like, towards the end, and sort of how they come up to it. And I think it involves mental health and and I think for me, the most interesting one of the book is humor, you know? And I think, honestly, it's very tough to write humor, so I'm really looking forward to read that book. It's something that's really, really popular right now. I think another book that I'm really looking forward to read is see how they fought by Rachel Paris. And I think Rachel is, like, an alumni of our program at the University of Auckland, and it's a gripping thriller. And what I find interesting is that, you know, sometimes Tara and, like, you hear about the typical MFA books, or typical, you know, like literary fiction, what I like is that yours, like, there's a variety. So if you want a thriller, you'll get a thriller. You know, it's, it doesn't like, sort of fall into the literary fiction bracket. So it's very entertaining. So I really want to read that. Another book, I think it came out a few years ago. It's by Angelique kasmara. It's called isobar precinct, and it's actually speculative fiction, but set in the streets of Auckland. So for me, it's more like, it's also like travel, you know, you get to like, because I want. Explore the place, you know, I've been here for a year, but, you know, there's only so much that you can explore, you know. So I do want to read this book to sort of explore the nooks and crannies of Auckland, and that too, from like a person who's been here for from a long time. So, yeah, there's a variety, yeah. So once speculative fiction, one is literary fiction, one is a thriller.

Tara Khandelwal: 21:08

Michelle, a little bit more about, you know, the MFA program and New Zealand in general. I've always wanted to visit New Zealand, so I know what. It's really beautiful. So tell me about your experience in the MFA program and New Zealand.

Michelle D'costa: 21:23

Okay, so it's definitely, I think, one of those experiences that people should not miss out on. One thing is definitely so just to, like, talk a little bit about New Zealand, it's very calm, it's very peaceful, and sort of like, you know, like when people talk about, and we've also interviewed a lot of writers who say they want to move to the hills, and, you know, just to sort of be away from the city and the noise, I think New Zealand has those vibes definitely. And so I live in the city, which is, I mean, but coming from Bombay, I don't find it noisy at all. But if you ask people here, they find the city very like noisy. In comparison. I think the suburbs are sort of like, you know, quieter. But definitely throughout New Zealand, the wives are just like, relaxing, you know, chilling, for example, let's say if work ends at five, it ends at five. There's no work after that. So people just chill. And I think, you know, people like, sleep around seven or 730 that's done. They're done for the day. So, yeah, it's, I would say, like, the opposite of what Bombay is and, you know, the Russian although that's, I think that's been, yeah, pretty, pretty interesting when it comes to the MFA program. Definitely, I think I've had a lot of fun, especially with my professor, with my supervisor, Paula Morris, so it's, what's, what's really I think for me, the biggest sort of takeaway is that I think it's very important that your supervisor or professor gets what you're trying to do. So she really, like, sort of, she was very welcoming of the second person narration, which I found very, very helpful, right? And, you know, she's also, like, a big fan of the namesake when Jampa Lahiri, and so I think it's just, you know, like having a very supportive cohort, having having that atmosphere where, you know, you get to not only get feedback on your work, right? So it's not just focused on yours, but you also get to read and critique others work. I found that very interesting. So, you know, without going into details, I'll just tell you, like some of my classmates, they are working on, like a fantasy novel set in, like a completely made up world. Then some of them are setting something in a place very much like what we know, but then it's sort of like not really a place that we know of. So it's just sort of given, like a fictional name, but we clearly know that it exists out there. So it's sort of like dystopian fantasy. Someone's writing a thriller, someone's writing literary fiction about grief between, you know, two sisters. So there's just, I think there's so much variety. So for me, it's just been so much fun because I've also not, I've been able to, like, you know, engage in other stories apart from my own. So it's just been, it's been a lot of fun. And also, by the way, we had a few guest lectures, and the most recent one was by the Booker Prize winner, Samantha Harvey. I don't know if you've read her book, Tara, so it's a very slim book, actually, and it's, it's about people set in space. Yeah, it's the whole book is actually, yes, you have, okay, yeah, amazing, yeah. So she spoke to us about it, and it was very, very interesting. So actually, she came here for the Auckland Writers Festival. It was a lot of fun. I actually volunteered there, and just sort of seeing, you know, the the number of people who turned up, and I'm like, Oh, wow, that's great people. People love reading here. I think for me, definitely, the highlight of the festival was watching Gollum Tobin, you know, speaking. So he was speaking to my professor. She interviewed him, and it was just so much fun, because he's hilarious, you know. So it's not just his work that's very engaging, but he's also very, very engaging as a speaker, so that was a lot of fun.

Tara Khandelwal: 25:11

Sounds like a dream come true. I would love to live in a place that's so Ivy Lake, and then, you know, even interacting with the other students in their work, and I'm sure they would have amazing feedback for your work as well. It must have helped you so much that collaboration and other students, they are from New Zealand, or they're from all over the world, yes, yes. So

Michelle D'costa: 25:29

actually, yeah, they are from New Zealand. But also it's like, you know, they might have originally been from somewhere else, but then they have moved to New Zealand. So some of them have been here for, like, years. Some of them have been born here, but some of them were actually born somewhere else and come here. So yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 25:43

so you're one of the few international students. Yes, actually,

Michelle D'costa: 25:47

I. Am the only one, really only? Yes, I'm the only one. So, oh, so, yeah. I mean, it is, it is interesting, yeah, because I think with other degrees and other courses, you do have a lot of international students, actually. So let's say, if you pick commerce or science, right, it's common. But I think because it's creative writing and it's art, so that was the only one I would say I I definitely didn't feel like I was the only international student, if you know what I mean, because everyone's story had something or another about, like, moving places, about, you know, having, having, like, different cultures or different, you know, different sort of exposure to sort of different cultures. So I think that's that's been very interesting.

Tara Khandelwal: 26:32

And I think this theme of migration is very interesting to you as well, which is what you explored in your first novel. So how do you think, sort of like the MFA has changed your writing from, you know, your first novel, which is getting published by Westland, to now this novel that you're writing about, has it sort of change in any way? Yeah,

Michelle D'costa: 26:49

that's a very good question, dharav, because I've been thinking about that a lot. And I think one thing that has really, really changed for the second novel is the pace of my novel. So in the first one, I tried to cover a lot of story within less number of words, right? And it's sort of like I prefer novels that are slim or that Athena, and I know that nowadays, you know, a lot of us really struggle to pay attention to, you know, it's quite difficult to read like a larger novel. So as a writer, I also want to write something that's entertaining, that's that's concise and sort of, you know, tells the story, but within few words. So definitely, I'll say in my second novel, what I've learned is it's okay to to take things slow. So if you have a lot of story, it's fine to, like, write a little more, right, instead of rushing through it. So that's something that's really helped. And I think I'm definitely going to, you know, take away the lessons and and, you know, rewrite, or sort of, maybe not rewrite, but tweak the manuscript of my first novel, if I can. Yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 27:52

can you do that? Since it's already sort of gone to a publisher and picked up? Yeah, yeah.

Michelle D'costa: 27:57

It's, yeah, it has been picked up. But then it's with my editor, so that's something that I can, I can discuss with my editor, and I can definitely make it better. Yeah. Oh,

Tara Khandelwal: 28:05

that's fantastic. So that's, that's exciting, that you have two titles out and not to mention the poetry, which is a whole different part of you. So, you know, like you've had some distance from the Indian publishing scene. You've, you know, we've worked together for so many years, very closely. You know, helping writers, helping other people, sort of bring their stories out into the world. Worked in tandem with the Indian publishing industry, but now that you had some distance from it, you know, what do you think of Indian publishing today? What's the biggest shift that you might have noticed?

Michelle D'costa: 28:36

I think, over the years, just the kind of writing we have witnessed, you know, I feel that definitely publishers are taking more risks, and that, for me, is like a big change, you know, let's say like, maybe seven years ago, eight years ago, the kind of books that I was exposed to when I was studying in Bangalore, right? You know, I just started reading a lot of Indian fiction. There was not much of variety, for sure. But now I think that publishers are definitely giving more space to different kinds of voices. So for me, that's interesting, because, you know, after a point, you just get bored reading the same kind of stories. But then there's a lot of experimentation. There's a lot of risk taken. So I do think that the publishing scene is thriving. Also. We have more publishers, and we have agents now, which were in there, like, you know, years ago. So I do think that the publishing scene has changed quite a bit. Yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 29:28

it's very interesting to hear, you know, from someone who has some distance from it. And I also want to live an idyllic life in the hills one day. So let's see if that ever happens. But yeah, just wrapping up, what do you what do you think, like looking back Books and Beyond? What do you think, sort of, you know, your top three favorite interviews that we did together? Oh my

Michelle D'costa: 29:48

gosh, that is so tough. Sarah, it's really tough to pay because there are so many, okay, maybe I'll just tell you, yeah, three that sort of, I would say the kind of like my dream interviews. You know, one was definitely Vivek shanbaug, because it's not just because it's a translation, but because I loved his book, gachar Kocher, and I always wanted to interview him. So we managed to interview him for Sakina kiss. And we also, you know, got him to answer a few questions about so that was a very interesting interview. I think another one would be Riya Mukherjee. I think, you know, because we go, like, really long back. So I remember I first discovered her work online, not even sure how long ago. I think 1010, 10 to 12 years ago. And then I've been following her journey. And then I was so happy that we got her to interview her, not just once, but twice, on the podcast. So that was definitely a lot of fun. Um, I would say probably the third one would be Amitabh Ghosh, um. Because it was just, it was unbelievable. That moment was just like, you know, like, I think both of us are starstruck when we interviewed him. Definitely. I think he's done commendable work when it comes to, like, climate, you know, activism through writing, very interesting. So I think the nut mix curse was one of the, you know, few books that sort of really opened my eyes, to sort of climate change, because, you know, you read a lot of things, but there are very few stories that stay with you. So those are one of the stories that stayed with me. I want to add one more, though, I know you've asked her to pick three, but if I could add one more, I think definitely it would be Amrita mahalis interview, and I'll tell you why. The reason is because she talks about rejection, in a way, I think her book was rejected quite a few times before she got published. So for me, when I was getting a lot of rejections for my work, I still remember listening to the interview on loop, and that really helped me as a writer. So I definitely think these would be but I want, I want to know what's yours. I'm sure they'll be very different.

Tara Khandelwal: 31:48

It's similar like, I think those were definitely highlight ones for me. Amitabh Mahale, Amitabh Ghosh, I think one of the highlights for me was Chitra Banerjee, because you know how much I love historical fiction, you know how much I love her books, and getting her on the podcast talking about her writing process was really, really fantastic. I also really like Amitabha Kumar's interview. He's a professor at Vassar, and I actually studied at Vassar for a year, and he spoke about just observing and making stories about the everyday and the mundane. And I thought that was very powerful, and his powers of observation. And another interview that I really liked was Damodar mauso, who is actually, you know, a stall, literally stalwart, won so many amazing awards, and is also lives in a small Goan village and runs a little shop there. And his short stories, I found them really lovely, and their stories about, you know, life in Goa, which I really enjoyed as well. So those were some of the standout ones. Another one that I really, really liked was Sonia felleros interview, because she, the way that she writes narrative nonfiction is just, I just find it the most amazing. She's one of my favorite writers in that genre, and even the topics that she covered, because she covers topics about women. So the first book was, you know, beautiful thing, which is about bar dancers in Bombay and the lives of bar dancers. And then the book that we interviewed her for was called The Good girls, where she talks about, you know, these three girls who were found dead, and the case behind them. And she went into school, also, I think, two girls, two girls actually went, you know, into those villages and viewed all those people. So I think those were some standout interviews for me as well. And then I just remember so many topics that we've covered, you know, from a book, you know, called Meow, meow, which is about, sort of this drug woman, drug dealer in Bombay called Baby from wildlife, we've interviewed Jan ki Lennon to cricket. To, as you said, business books, biographies, story of whiskey in India. To, you know, Kavita Rao's book about the first female doctors. Ira mukhothi book about the unsung queens and Mughal times. So so many different topics, and so many fiction books also we've covered, you know, I remember Tejas when he upped his interview, which was about, it's a fiction novel which I really, really loved. Again, historical fiction called, sorry, called The Secret of more. And it's about the silent film industry in India, and it's historical fiction about that so many books, fiction and non fiction that we've covered. And I'm looking forward to the next season and the next few episodes as well, because the lineup that we've had, I think, is just getting better and better, richer and richer and deeper. And the kind of conversations, you know, every what I love about doing this is we 150 conversations in and I can't think of any conversation that is the same. Every conversation is something new. Adds a new perspective, a new dimension, you know, gives a new story behind the story, and is entertaining. And I think that's what motivates me also to keep going. One is, of course, you know the lovely feedback from our listeners. And I met a person at a retreat, I hope he's listening right right now, who said he's listening to every single episode, which is a lot of episodes. But the other thing is that no conversation is the same, which is supremely fascinating. And we've had so many journeys and highlights also with the podcast where we, you know, remember going and doing the Tata literature live, where we had to interview authors, or doing, you know, series with different publishers and different people. And the first time, we also got Bora Chang on the platform, which is a booker prize. Even if you book a prize winner. So these have all been moments you know that you remember and you reflect and look back on. And it was really nice, actually, to do this with you, because one never gets a chance to sort of look back in this way. So it was really lovely to have that opportunity to look back with you, yeah,

Michelle D'costa: 36:06

and I think you know just, I think you mentioned secret of more, right? Tara, so that really made me think about books that made us explore places better. I think for me, that was one of the highlight as well. So for example, books that cover Bombay, right? Let's say we have done two, three episodes. For example, Secret of more, even damianti Biswas book. So it covers this whole, you know, milieu of bar dancers in Bombay, or you could say even Delhi novels like Deepti Kapur, you know. So I think, for me, even the fact that it could be, let's say, about one place, but how different writers explore that? So I think that's something that we have done very well, sort of, I think, in the podcast as well. Yeah, yeah.

Tara Khandelwal: 36:45

I think, yeah, there's a lot happening in the publishing space. As you said, you know, a lot more stories. I think the future of storytelling is looking very bright. There's a lot of local stories now being told with global confidence. The writing that we have in India, I think, you know, has always been at a world class level, and it's just getting there more and more. You know, we just realized Kiran they sir, sorry, Kiran de sai is new novel is being shortlisted for the Booker. We've had international Booker Prize winners all of these amazing pieces of literature now going from India to the world, and that is something that I also want to do a lot more on this podcast.

Michelle D'costa: 37:22

Yeah, I think even me, Tara, I'm like, really looking forward to sort of what's coming up. You know, I do think that with Kiran DESA is shortlisting. I mean, definitely. I mean, she's a fabulous writer. But also I feel like Indian writers are starting to being, you know, noticed and and I think definitely with the podcast, like, my hope, my really, my hope is that a lot more people start reading right Indian writers based in India, right? Because there are a lot of Indian writers based outside India, right? Of course, like, like the diaspora that you know are well read and people know about them. But I think I really hope that through the podcast, they get to really discover the gems that are in India, and they are writing there, because there's a lot, and then they're writing about really amazing stuff. So definitely, I hope that they pick them. It could even be like, you know, one writer, but I really hope that it will sort of expand their worldview, or sort of just see the richness in India. And just to add to that, I think especially books that are written in translation from regional languages, we have covered quite a few on the podcast, and that's something that's that's really rare, right? Because you're writing in regional languages, but then, you know, it gets translated into English, and very few of these books make it outside, yeah, so I do hope that in this way, it reaches a larger audience.

Tara Khandelwal: 38:42

No, absolutely on the same page with you. So what are the next few months gonna look like for you? Michelle,

Michelle D'costa: 38:49

definitely. I'm gonna be very hard on myself when it comes to trying to finish the novel. And the reason is because if I get distracted, which I often do, I think it's just gonna take away longer, more time. And I'm a bit impatient when it comes to finishing these projects. And that's how I actually finished my first book. Like, I set a deadline, and I was like, I have to finish it within this time. So definitely, the next few months are going to be very hectic when it comes to writing, because, like, even the first half, there was so much of rewriting and writing, like, even though the it was like, Finally, 40,000 words, I'm sure I would have written probably double, right? Because then you rewrite, and then you're like, Okay, does this make sense? Is not, is this okay? So it's definitely going to be. It involve a lot of writing, but what I'm also hoping to do is I'll get time to read more. I've been reading really interesting books, and I wanted to recommend this to you. I'm not sure if you have sort of explored this category, right? So it's sort of, it's sort of like, called the housewife syndrome, the 1950s housewife suburb syndrome. So it's actually really interesting. There is a movie that I would also recommend to you. So it's called, don't worry, darling. If you like horror, if you like dystopian, you might like it. Okay? And I would also recommend a book. It's called the most by Jessica Anthony, very slim book, you know, very interesting about this couple. Um, so if you're interested in, like, um, a romantic relationship, but also, like, sort of secrets within a marriage, and sort of exploring the, you know, what a suburban housewife's life is like you might like it. So that's something I've been I've been reading, and I really enjoyed it.

Tara Khandelwal: 40:32

Interesting is that a book like based in New Zealand? No, no, it's not okay. So that was such a great conversation, Michelle, I think I'm really gonna miss having you here like this. But as I said before, it's just goodbye for now. And. And we will be back with more episodes. In the meantime, look forward to our next few episodes, because there are going to be many more and some very interesting conversations coming along your way.

Michelle D'costa: 40:58

Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Tara. This has been so much fun. I'm definitely going to miss it, but yes, hopefully I should be back and because I think Indian writing is only going to get better from here. So I can't wait to explore more of it.

Tara Khandelwal: 41:10

So follow along and make sure to hit the subscribe button on Spotify and Apple podcasts until next time, happy reading. Hope you enjoy this episode of Books and Beyond with bound.

Michelle D'costa: 41:21

This podcast is created by bound, a company that helps you grow through stories. Find us at bound India on all social media platforms, tune

Tara Khandelwal: 41:30

in every wedding day as we peek into the lives and minds of some brilliant authors from India and South Asia. You.