Re-release. Devashish & Nidhi: Enter The Psyche Of Indian Psychological Thrillers

What happens when two women find themselves in the midst of horrendous crimes? 

Join us as Tara and Michelle speak to two avid thriller writers– Devashish Sardana and Nidhi Upadhyay. In this episode, Devashish discusses his book “The Girl with Broken Dreams”, a story of a feisty CBI investigator who finds herself in a quest for the truth behind a string of suicides, while battling her own demons. And Nidhi Upadhyay talks about her book “I Hear You”, a story of a woman trapped in an abusive marriage, and how she starts talking to the baby in her womb- only to find him responding! 

In this exclusive series in partnership with Penguin Random House India, we will shine a spotlight on two compelling contemporary voices each month, individuals who are reshaping the landscape of Indian literature. 

Tune in to hear how they started their thriller-writing journey, how they kept finding their way back despite having day jobs, and the concerning contents of a thriller writer’s search history! 

Books and authors mentioned in this episode:

• The Silence of the Lambs - Thomas Harris
• And Then There Were None - Agatha Christie
• Gone Girl - Gillian Flynn
• Godaan - Munshi Premchand
• Where the Crawdads Sing - Delia Owens
• Movies and TV shows mentioned in this episode:
• Misery - Stephen King (Director- Rob Reiner)
• Mahabharata - B.R. Chopra

Upcoming Bound Retreats
Immersive, one-of-a-kind literary experiences that take writers into the heart of India’s most breathtaking landscapes.

1. Wanderlust Travel Writing Retreat in Chetinad | 16 - 21 September 
2. Whimsy Fiction Writing Retreat in Coonoor | 8 - 12 October 

Learn more: https://boundindia.com/retreats/ 

Apply to all retreats: http://bit.ly/44TzYpY 

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Chapters

• 0:00 Books & Beyond Intro
• 2:07 Introduction to Devashish and Nidhi
• 52:43 Books & Beyond Outro

Transcript

Unknown: 0:48

Has reading so many awesome books inspired the writer in you. So right after this episode of Books and Beyond, pack your bags and your ideas and head to bound retreats. Join a hand picked group of creative minds for an experience that will transform you. Explore local cultures. Stay in for one on one, mentoring sessions, collaborate on enriching workshops, develop your writing craft with solo exercises. Get inspired by curated experiences and find your literary soulmates and community along the way. Three retreats, infinite possibilities, limited seats, so apply today. Bound retreats, literary experiences designed for you.

Devashish Sardana: 1:39

Bound

Unknown: 1:41

Welcome to Books and Beyond. With bounds. I'm Tara khande loal, and I'm Michelle D'costa, and in this podcast, we talk to India's finest

Michelle D'costa: 1:51

authors and uncover the stories behind the best written books

Unknown: 1:55

and dissect how these books shape our lives and our worldview today.

Michelle D'costa: 2:00

So let's dive in. This episode is part of our branded series with Penguin Random House India. Hi everyone. Welcome back. Tara and I are super passionate about thrillers, and we often discuss thrillers, and you know why we like them? So today, we have two very talented authors with us whose books have become best sellers. We are going to be unpacking the whole world of Indian psychological thrillers with them. Also, please exercise scorching while listening to this episode, because it covers so many sensitive topics like mental health, suicide, cancer and gaslighting, among

Tara Khandelwal: 2:36

that we really like the two books and the two authors that we're interviewing today. And one of the topics is about women, and women have been portrayed differently across thrillers, from being dark and deranged to being victims, to being vulnerable and being strong, badass investigators and the heroine of Nidhi upadhyas latest book, I hear you, mahika is one such woman. So the story goes like this, mahika is hoping that a baby will breathe new life into her dead marriage, but all of her pregnancies meet the same fate, because no baby is perfect for her husband, Shivam, who is a genius geneticist, until there is one Rudra, the world's first genetically altered fetus, and he is Shivam, perfect creation and mahika, last hope so. The question is, does Rudra help her escape her marriage, and how reliant Is she on her child to save her? And I could not keep this book down. Yeah. And

Michelle D'costa: 3:35

on the other hand, we have another page turner by devashi sadhana, whose main female lead, Simon Singh is one of the most gutsy female investigators I have come across. So we know that this detective is actually inspired by Deva. She's lifelong affair with thriller fiction and his passion for suspenseful cinema and his own struggles with mental health as a kid. Um So Simone actually encountered a really strange case in her tenure as an investigator where she finds young girls were turning up dead with a box in their hand sent to them by someone really mysterious called the dream catcher. And most of the people think that these are suicides, but we actually read to find out if they are really suicides, or if there's something more sinister in the background. So Will she be able to crack this case without affecting her own sanity? She has her own dark past, she has her own battles to fight through. Will she be able to do all of this by herself?

Tara Khandelwal: 4:30

So welcome devasheesh And Nidhi, and let's crack the code of successful psychological thrillers with both of you.

Devashish Sardana: 4:38

Thank you so much Vishal

Nidhi Upadhyay: 4:39

and Tara for having us over. Thank you, Tara, Thank you, Michelle. Super excited to be here.

Michelle D'costa: 4:44

Yeah, I'm really excited as well, because I think thrillers is one of our favorite genres, right? Tara, so before we begin, you know, I just really wanted to know, how did you both actually get into the world of psychological thrillers? Where did it all begin and what, according to you, makes a successful psychological strength? No. So

Nidhi Upadhyay: 5:05

for me, it was actually a very simple choice. I grew up reading a lot of thrillers and mystery books, and I just love drama, and I just love, you know, an author, or even if I watch movies as it's always thriller movies where I love the director just pulling the rug from under my feet. So I love, just love that feeling. I love the feeling of, you know, putting together a puzzle. So, so for me, it was a very clear choice of, it has to be a thriller. So my first book actually was a fantasy thriller. Was in the psychological thriller, but I realized that I gravitate more towards, you know, books where characters are internally. You. Motivated. And what I mean by that is, usually in thrillers, you you have, you know, it's, they're plot driven. A lot of thrillers are plot driven because it's about, you know, solving that mystery, solving the puzzle, action, something's happening, you know, the detective is trying to chase down the camera. So it's very plot driven. And it's okay to have characters who are shallow. I'm going on a limb there, but it's okay. What, for me, makes you know psychological thriller stand out is you really have to delve in deeper into the psyche of the characters and bring that out, because that's where the motivation lies. So So, yeah, for me, I just love that, you know, aspect of combining strong characters with the plot that a thriller demands. And love writing psychological service.

Michelle D'costa: 6:40

So, you know, before Nidhi answers, I'm curious, because you said you like character driven psychological thrillers. Who's the, you know, your favorite, I would say, I think antagonist. If I'm not wrong, what was your favorite antagonist in any thriller that you either watched or read so far?

Nidhi Upadhyay: 6:57

See for me, I'll tell you, I saw this movie, and later I read the book, you know, I'll be honest, silence of the lands, right? And for me, I saw the movie, and the whole time I was so, you know, not sure attracted is the right word, but, but for me, the antagonist was such a strong character, I was almost rooting for the antagonist. And later I realized that, and why is that right? And it made, for me, it made the story just so much richer. So, so that was one, I would say,

Michelle D'costa: 7:37

Hannibal Lecter, right? For all our listeners who haven't seen the silence of the lamp series, it's actually based off a series of books, and Hannibal Lecter, even, according to me, is one of the most interesting antagonist I've ever come

Nidhi Upadhyay: 7:50

across. So, in fact, I'll tell you, even when I was writing, you know, my the first book in the Simone Singh series. It's called the girl in the glass case, I started, of course, Simone was a character, and I really wanted to start with, you know, a woman, an empowered, kick ass woman like that. That was that had to be my protagonist. But on the other hand, I also wanted a kick ass antagonist who was a woman, or in this case, a trans woman, right? But I started with that character first, because I really wanted the antagonist to have deep, strong, motives that readers could connect with and root for, because then once you connect with an antagonist, then it's almost because you're rooting for both, and then who wins. And that just makes the story so much richer, and so much from a thriller standpoint, so much suspenseful. So yeah, Nidhi,

Devashish Sardana: 8:48

what about you? So for me, Michelle and Tara, leading psychological thrillers per se would start back when I first read And Then There Were None by gatha Christie. Back then, we did not have psychological thrillers as a genre. It was more of like who done it, and that's when I realized what it means to playing with the psyche by all of them being in a house and trying to find who has done what someone has done, right? So later on, we had these Gone Girl and other things coming into picture other books that categorized as domestic noise or psychological terror. So my first love was Agatha Christie when it comes to reading or writing, I still go back to the same god of mystery, and that's how it started. But like devashi said, it became more and more intense the love for psychological thriller when I understood the psyche behind people and how to kind of use it or manipulate it for creating fear or a crime, why it is done so it kind of helps us to write a mystery with layers. And that's how the psychological thriller part started attracting me in the books, of course, Gone Girl cannot be missed. You cannot be missed in terms of books. And again, on the side, where the negative character comes and you gets into the brain of the negative character, understanding the motivation or the back story is what makes a psychological thriller the most engaging psychological thriller, when you are understanding and getting into the head of a person, whether it's a protagonist or the antagonist?

Michelle D'costa: 10:29

Yeah. And I just, I'm a big fan of psychological journalists, you know, and Tara often wonders, she's like, Michelle, how do you manage to watch all these, are

Tara Khandelwal: 10:37

these books? And I really, she really watches the darkest things of people doing, you know, so many disturbing

Michelle D'costa: 10:46

and people. Really made me, made me think about, you know, like you said, Devesh, what is it? I'm using the word attraction. It just feels very, you know, I would say very wrong here. But yes, I think it is. It is that sort of like, you know, seeing, seeing the extent to which people can go to and the way they can behave in certain situations and, and I think one, one movie comes to mind. And this, again, is based off a book. I think most of our favorite films are based off books where, you know, this is misery by Stephen King, and you know, for for this ones who have not seen it or not read the book, I don't want to give much spoilers, but there is this woman who is a fan of this writer, and she actually kidnaps him one day. And what I liked was it actually flipped or supported this, this trope of how men, usually men are, you know, stalkers, or all of that. And here it was, this woman and and the extent to which she can go to to sort of, you know, capture this writer in her house. It was, it was just mind blowing. And I feel there are so many more rich thrillers that sort of unpack, unpack, you know, the sort of Darkest Minds, you know, in the, I would say, human psyche. But before we unpack, different kinds of films, different kinds of tropes, you know, I wanted to know more about both of you, because I know that both of your first books were also best sellers. Your current books are just sort of hitting off the charts, you know. And I know that there are not many thrillers which are published in India, especially not through traditional publishing, you know. I know it's a small world, but I don't want to assume that you both know each other. I want to know have you read each other's work?

Nidhi Upadhyay: 12:24

Oh yes, yes, maybe. And I know each other. We we've known each other now nearly, what, a couple of years. I think this was so we share the same editor at Penguin guru, and guru was the one who you know introduced us, because both of us write thrillers. And like you said, there are very few Indian authors in the thriller genre. So, so yes, we we go back a couple of years. We both, incidentally, live in Singapore, so So yeah, so we stay in touch, and yes, we read each other's works as well. Nidhi, in fact, was a beta reader or my latest book, The Girl with broken dreams, and I can't thank her enough for her valuable feedback. And, yeah,

Michelle D'costa: 13:15

actually, may I know what? What did you suggest, which sort of made into the final version of the book?

Devashish Sardana: 13:22

I think it was already perfectly written. There was nothing needed in it, because he has a very good understanding of characters and how to sketch them. So there was nothing I could have done other than enjoying the book and getting out of my reading slump, because we write so much and there is so much research to do that fiction takes a backtrack in terms of reading. And I had written to him after finishing the book that thanks for kicking me out of my reading slump because I had stopped reading fiction completely to write. So devashish owes

Tara Khandelwal: 13:55

that. I think that's the biggest compliment, right? For a writer who gives their book to beta reader and the book comes back. I mean, the beta you says, I'm done. That means the book is really good. You know, they're taking that much time to read a book. It means that, oh, it's very hard to get through. So that's the biggest compliment, and it's okay that you guys know each other. Maybe you can maybe co write something in the future. But before we get to that, you know, I also wanted to find out about your backgrounds, because you don't come from writing backgrounds. Nidhi, you were a headhunter. Devshi, sure, I am a graduate, you know, so and both of you are so passionate about psychological thrillers. So can you tell both of you? Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood and how you got introduced to stories in the first place, and how did that writing journey then come about? Go ahead. So

Devashish Sardana: 14:46

with me, Michelle and Tara that simple, very simple reason why I started reading was that I was a key lock child. My parents were working, and summers were the most difficult times when we were locked at home, because, being a girl, we were not allowed to move around. So what she did was she would go and bring a few books. And I'm not talking about, you know, mills and bones. I'm talking about hardcore Hindi Sahitya, which is Gabon go down by Munshi Premchand, because my giving just a bit of background on it. My mom is a Hindi literature educated in that and is a graduate, so she was the one who introduced me to these fiction which had very strong characters, and I had that as my, you know, only passion in terms of growing up. And then I realized that I write as well and more of therapy, or, you know, expressing my feelings as they say, that authors feel very keenly about anything. So if I. With my brother, I would write down a poem about him. If I was happy about something, I would write again a poem. So people started gradually noticing that I'm expressing my emotions using words rather than going and confronting anyone. Which was the era I was being brought up, that women were not allowed or were not encouraged to say what they wanted to say. I was studying in a convent school. Still there was, there was a lot of discrepancy, I must say, in terms of what was taught and what was actually practiced. So it started there, and then I remember I was in grade 10, I had secured really well in my exams, and I picked physics, chemistry, maths as my subjects. So my mama, who was in Lucknow, he took a train and came to my hometown and told me, you're making the biggest mistake of your life. And he used to call me kavini Because he used to compare it with Mahadevi Varma. And he would say that, you know, you will find engineers in every house. You won't find poets and writers everywhere. So don't miss out on the talent you have. But at that point of time, getting financial independence, standing on my feet was very important for me, and I knew that by writing a book or being a art graduate won't cut it, not in that era. So I decided to stay where I was, and kind of like for two years, studied physics, maths, chemistry, there was nothing about writing anything. Then I went to engineering college, and then the passion again caught up with me in terms of like writing scripts for the hostel night or the school, or doing some kind of competitions in terms of poetry competition. Then they started noticing my talent, however, again, went back to job. Had kids. The only medium that stayed in terms of writing was writing one poem for my husband for anniversaries. Now he collected a few, like, 15 odd years, and then he and yes, I won't deny, anytime I would fight, I would give it back in words. Anytime I did not like anything about anyone, I would write it in a diary. So he knew that I was upset not to code. It was to decode is, well, very difficult. Easier way was to find my diary and read what I felt. So it kind of became the medium. And then, for good, like 1516, years, he kept on saying, write something. Then, as you said, the im graduates have a new profession sideline that they write, like Karan Bajaj and, you know others, Chetan Bhagat. So he was bitten by the same bug. He said, You should write. I cannot write, but you should write, and you should not waste your talent. It is, it is the era when I was kind of looking for a job after my younger one. So he said, You should write. I ignored it. He said again. Then I said, Don't rub your midlife crisis on me. I don't want to write. I want to go back to work, full time work. And then he said, You just give yourself three months and write something. That is when I first wrote the first actual novel, without thinking of publishing or anything. And that was, I hear you, and I wrote it. I had no clue what I was writing, but I knew that if I'm reading thrillers, I would write something. I had an idea which was brewing in my mind, and then I wrote it. And after that, there was a long, torturous, I must say, journey to get published. But here I am accidental writer, I must say,

Michelle D'costa: 19:18

I would say thanks to your uncle who took that train journey Delhi. It's not common to come across relatives who actually support the arts, so it really kudos to your uncle, and then, of course, to your husband for pushing you in the right direction. Yeah.

Tara Khandelwal: 19:33

What about you? Devish,

Nidhi Upadhyay: 19:34

yeah. So see, for me, I grew up around stories, and as most kids, kids do, it started with my grandmother, you know, my daddy, and it's, Sunidhi. She was actually in the, you know, school teacher as well. So something else we have in common, like, you know, the family but my daddy, she used to tell me stories, right, like, as grandmothers do. And the one story I absolutely loved and wanted her to tell me again and again, was the Mahabharata, so much so that once you know the the BR Chopra series came out, you know, I would watch that series on ReLU on, on a loop again and again and again. And what, what stood out for me, because, again, this was my first trust with, with the literature, you know, right? Were actually the female characters? Because now again, literature, a lot of times reflects the times, right? And it is Mahabharata is quite patriarchal in that sense. But I loved some of the female characters. I. You know, in the Mahabharata, be it, you know, drop these resilience, or kunti's resourcefulness, or even, you know, Gandhari strength, when you know she's she's asked to she, she herself, blindfolds herself as an act of solidarity. And for me, this was a time when this was the literature that started influencing me. Then it was my mother. And again, you know, when I was in school, unfortunately, you know, my parents separated, and so I grew up with a single mom who is, you know, who, who raised three kids. So again, seeing the strength of a woman first hand. And my sister again, you know, who my elder sister, who was, you know, who's, who's like my little mother to me. And then when I got married, my wife, who's, who's actually a super strong, you know, woman very strong opinions. Go getter. She does what she wants. So growing up around strong women is, I feel, why I inherently, you know, like bringing those voices out in literature, because it's about celebrating that resilience, that confidence and the strength of women and portraying the times of today, that's to answer why, you know, more female centric voices in my novels as well. Now, the journey for me was a bit similar to what Nidhi was, you know, sharing with us. I actually the last time I ever wrote anything was in high school. So the last time I ever wrote prose or an essay was in high school, and that was because it was mandated, yeah, and I'm not written anything like, when did engineering? When went to ima, started working. I'm a Marketing Brand Builder, you know, branding professional. And it was really few years into my job. You know, you have one of those days where you come back and you're like, why are you working? You know, you know, what's the point of corporate life? And I remember, and my wife, she, she's, she's very, very candid, yeah, very straightforward. And she was like, So what do you want to do? And I was like, I don't know, but it's I don't know, like, what I should when she so, my wife's answer to anything, usually is make a list. Yeah, so anytime you're in doubt, make a list and then action it. So I said, Okay. So she said, Okay, just answer one question. If you did not have to work for a living, right, what would you do? And I remember, I sat down, wrote, you know, created that list, and that list only had one thing, which was I'd love to write. She was like, Yeah, you sent me a lot of, you know, lovey dovey messages, but I'm not seeing you write prose or anything, why? And I just felt, I remembered that feeling of writing fiction back in school. I remember that, you know, just when I sit down and write and let my mind wander and imagine I just absolutely love that feeling. And my wife was like, So what's holding you back? And I was like, but I don't have time. You know, like, everybody's busy and I'm busy. My job's demanding. And she's like, Yeah, so find time. Like, how do you find time? And she said, wake up early. And that's what I do. This was seven years ago, and for the last seven years, I wake up early, five to seven is my time, yeah, so I try to separate my or keep my day job and my, you know, so to say, hobby separate, but five to seven is my time. I wake up I write not not all on, not every day, but most days. And, yeah, that's that was seven years ago, and now it's three novels round, hopefully one novel every that's the goal. So here I am

Michelle D'costa: 24:55

that requires a lot of willpower. I know that I can never wake up so early in the morning, but I just love how supportive your spouses have been, both of you, right? And then just sort of made me think of my own journey. So in my case, it has been my parents, I think that has not been a time where they haven't seen me writing. So sometimes my parents, in fact, ask me, you know, can't you do something else in life? Like, can you do something which is more realistic? Like, you know, cooking. Don't you want to learn cooking for survival? And I say, No, I need writing for survival. It's just, I think, you know, like, if you love writing, nothing can keep you away from it. So even me, for example, I studied commerce, you know, lady, I was always raised with this, with this upbringing, saying that, you know, you need to have a day job, you need to earn your living. And you know, as we know, even now, it's very difficult for Indian writers to earn, earn a living from writing. So I've always had a day job, and I've always tried to figure. Route, a way to make writing work, you know? So, yeah, I just, I love that both of you have, sort of, you know, figured finally, that you love writing, and you do, you know, anything to make that possible? That's really, yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 25:58

and, and the books are so exciting as well, right? So, Nidhi, like, I really love your character, the character mahika, and I hear you and you know, it's very interesting, because, as we mentioned, you know, she's pregnant, and she the husband wants a perfect baby, and she feels like she's a victim of patriarchy. And you know, we see her barely have any agency of her own, and what that does to her, and it's a very nuanced character. So can you tell us, sort of the inspiration behind this multi layered character and all the things that are going in her head, and how has she found herself in this kind of a situation where she has this baby who's a sort of anomaly, and her husband who is a, you know, genetic genius. So

Devashish Sardana: 26:48

I act, it's a very interesting question, and I really have to look back how the character came into, you know. Picture is that I had a story idea, which was that I wanted to read a book that was a thriller, you know, but a thriller that was not gory. And this is during the time of my pregnancy, second baby, that I really wanted to read something which was thrilling enough, but something that I could read with a baby within me. So I started thinking of looking for books that had a mother and a child's relationship, but we had horror in it. We had, you know, thrillers in it. But there wasn't anything that would be, you know, digestible enough for a six, seven month pregnant lady. And now the need to read thriller was killing me, so I started thinking, what if a baby starts talking to the mother? Now it stayed, I am not a writer. It stayed with me, and I thought this is a great story idea. Somebody would come up with this. And being a science student, being a logical person, getting into that picture where a baby will talk, the only logical explanation to that was genetic modification. It cannot be magical, because it won't sit well with me. It has to be a science fiction based story. So now I had to do my research in terms of, like, what era I base it in, because if I put it in today's timeline, genetic modification has been done, cloning has been done. My own dad's organization in Karnal had done cloning for the fellows and the cows. So I knew what was happening at back then, when I was in grade 12, so I knew I had to go beyond that. And that is when I took the character mahika, to 1990s when she is growing up. So when you say the idea of feminism was still not there, terms like gas lighting, mansplaining were not there. There wasn't the whole idea of a women asking for the rights. All she knew was to, you know, stand up on her own feet so that if something goes wrong, at least she has someone to support the kids. She has some form of money to support the kids. That was the only idea of feminism back then. Now she moves in that era, in 1998 and comes to us, and she has left behind India progressing. She's left behind how the women in India are fighting for their rights. She has been stagnant there where she left. So I wanted that character. I had a choice to make her kick ass and, you know, kind of fight and break the mold. And I had a choice to create a character that becomes the Phoenix, arises, rises from the ashes, and become the feminist by exploring her own, you know, strengths and weaknesses. So I picked the second one for the simple reason, because I was talking about the era when actually women were wired wrongly, that you just have to give, give, give, taking always came with a guilt. So that is how the character became. So I had to make the character fall in love with sahih Shivam in a very, very different way. So it was completely in love so that she couldn't see anything, which is the case of every domestic noir premise that you keep on taking violence and keep on taking harassment, because you love the person, and you keep on giving chances, which was in staying with the character. Then came. She was well educated so that she could stand on her feet. But I have lived out of India for 20 odd years to tell you this, there are certain level of degrees that don't work outside architecture dentist, and they are all well educated people, but they are doing jobs of attendance if they don't upgrade their skills. So it was a very, very real character, if you talking about my era or today's era. So I created that weaving around those kind of women who had. Have actually sacrificed the entire, you know, BDS, MDS, or even MBBS, because they cannot practice outside India. So that became my central idea of a character, of an expat woman who's been, you know, whose wings have been cut for different reasons, and then how she finds herself and then gathers the courage. And when you say Tara, she was looking for the baby for strength. She wasn't actually, she was giving strength to the baby that I'm here for you because I will cross the road and cook and do everything possible to save you. So it was a mother's feeling that you know you can, you can do whatever you want to do if you want to save your child? Is the emotion I explored in that particular character,

Michelle D'costa: 31:34

yeah. And I actually, you know, Nithi, I was drawn to the book because I'm fascinated by medical thrillers. You know, apart from all the dark and disturbing stories that I consume, I think medical thrillers was my entry point towards thrillers, you know, to the whole psychological thriller genre. So Robin Cook's medical thrillers was something I read back to back. I reread them. I consumed them like, you know, like a virus. So I think for me, that's why I was drawn towards your book. And I think what would work for me was how realistic it was, right? Like you said, Because had you made her sort of a woke contemporary character, we might have not seen that manipulation, or we might have not seen all the things that she goes through in the book, you know, which makes me curious about your own character, devashish, because, you know, I think I haven't seen many female investigators in books so far. I grew up reading Nancy Drew. I remember borrowing Nancy Drew books on my library, and, you know, wanting to see more of female investigators, but I did not see them, especially not in the Indian fiction world. So I want to know what is the inspiration behind Simone, because, in fact, we are also having a series. This is your second book in the series. I'm sure that you really love the character. In order to, you know, write a whole series, and you even have another book coming out. So please tell us, how did the story begin?

Nidhi Upadhyay: 32:43

Yeah. So see, for me, it had to be a female protagonist, and then exactly to what you said, the more thrill. And I read a lot of thrillers and mysteries, very few have female leads, and especially when it, when it comes to crimes, and I'm talking about, you know, especially maybe five years ago now, more and more we are seeing it in fiction. We are seeing it in TV dramas, but it wasn't the norm, right? So, so for me, as I was sharing my backstory, it was important to bring those voices and do my bit, you know, in influencing through literature, the the whole point of and the need to have strong, empowered females, and I would go as far as saying diverse voices. Because, as you'd see in both of my books, it's, it's it goes beyond just, you know, women empowerment, to actually empowering anybody on a spectrum? Yeah, so, so I was very clear that needs to there needs to be a, you know, female protagonist. In fact, in the first book, we see two female leads. And that was intentional as well, because I felt, why stop at one, right? It's because a lot of times we've read novels where we have two male leads, or a male and a female lead, and the female is just to provide that romantic angle. And which I felt was, why, like, that's not her role, just to, you know, to be the arm Gandhi, to be honest. So, so why not have two female leads? And then you explore that, because when two females with very different personalities come together and are forced to work together. How do they do it? Right? So, of course, tensions and sparks fly with different kind of sparks. It's not romantic, but it's, it's, how do they then come together? So that's, that was why. That was the reason I chose Simone, and again, for me, it was, I was clear that Simone has to be flawed. Yeah, she, she, she's not the chosen one. You know, she's not like there's absolutely nothing wrong with her because, or she's not flawed because we as human beings are flawed, right? And stories need to portray reality. Otherwise, readers are going to reject it, and they're not going to connect with the character character. So in fact, in the second book, The latest one, the girl with broken dreams, we see that Simone, who's lost her grandma, the only family she's ever had, only and she's lost her she's going through a mental turmoil, and she, she's, she's, she tried to take her own life, and which is where, especially in this book, I'm exploring the themes of, you know, mental health and suicides in young adults, especially who are. I'm learning that that's, that's the the bigger or the larger societal angle, but it was important to also look at it from an individual's point of view, right? And Simone kind of reflects that, because she's going through it herself, and how she is then battling her own mental demons while solving this case, which is so interlinked with what she's going through. So, yeah, that was, that was the thought behind choosing her and putting her into difficult situations, and then see her come out of those, and then battle those. Yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 36:21

I found the whole, you know, the book brought up so many questions, right? Because you have these suicides, seemingly suicides, of teenagers who have cancer. And it just makes you think, I mean, it makes you think of undeterminally ill, right? So there's a lot of these, like ethical issues that come up as well, and the question of, you know, euthanasia, all of those things. So I think the book had many layers in that way. And I just had a question for both of you, is that you know you're dealing with, especially in the psychological thriller genre, you are dealing with, you know, these characters who are very dark, who have a lot of sort of issues, you know, so to say, and obviously, are very different than you know, what you guys are like in real life. I mean, these guys are, you know, a little bit off the spec of the spectrum of normal. If you look at a TV show like you, which is also one of my favorite TV shows, that guy is like, I mean, he's scary shit. And I always wonder the person who's writing this character, you know, what are they thinking it? Does it affect like, does it start affecting you? Because you're with these you're writing these characters, so you're obviously with these people for so many hours of the day. So does that affect

Nidhi Upadhyay: 37:40

you as a person? Yeah. So, okay, so for me, there are two things. One, yes, it's absolutely necessary for any you know writer worth their word, to get into the shoes of their characters, or shoes or heels of their characters like so, the biggest, I would say, or the skill that we need to pick up, is empathy. Because we need to empathize with our characters. We need to understand what they're going through. We almost need to become them. Yeah. Now, does that impact us? For me, I can, I can, of course, speak for myself, yes. Short answer is yes. There have been times when at, you know, 5am I'm sitting down writing, and I'm trying because my character just lost someone, or she's just gone through something horrible, and that's how she's feeling, or in the shoes of the antagonist who is not going to murder someone, but I'm sitting there in the chair enraged because I feel like doing it, but again, it's all happening in my head, so I understand that, but I need to let it unravel In my head, because if I don't do that, I will never become one with the characters, at least that's how I think about it. Nidhi, how about you?

Devashish Sardana: 38:55

First of all, thank you, Tara, for calling us normal, because I think I doubt anyone outside trust me when the first book came out. It's a story about four friends, and it's a story about, you know, engineering college and friends. And incidentally enough, I have four friends, which were a core group of, you know, friends in the engineering time, they started reading together the book, and everybody started thinking, who's who? Who's Natasha, who's Catherine, who's, you know, Riya. And they kept on guessing. And this Whatsapp group was so active that I forgot that today is the publishing day of my book. And they were discussing the book. And then after reading the entire book, they said, None of us are inside the book, and all of us are there. So that is what you become after writing a book that you have everyone of you, and you're not stepping out or stepping in. For me, I have been living in and out, breathing in and out, and it, you know when I hear you. Was launched to answer your question from someone who's looking at us from outside. Few of my friends called and said, what goes in your devil mind? So what all can you think of? Where is it coming from? And how do you separate the two, raising two boys, staying with two boys and a dog. I don't think I am any less devil anymore. When I'm I want to scare them. I have lots of stories that they would not come out of their room. So rarely I differentiate. Like he said, You need to empathize. You need to be the character. So with me, it's very difficult for me to cut off from the book. So it hangs for the entire day somewhere in the back of my mind. But as you know, being a mom, it is. Easy to multi process, so one part of my brain keeps on working on the character, but I know where to draw. The thin line between using that knife to cut the onion rather than slitting someone's throat is the thin line I draw. And I'm sure people around me have started being very scared. Trust me, I have to close the door of my room before I start writing, because my search history, I would one day definitely be caught by Singapore Police. I have searched things that I won't like to mention on the podcast. So it's, it's that dark, but it's separate from my real

Michelle D'costa: 41:24

world. Yeah, I think, I think the search history of writers is something people should never hold against us, like never, never use as Exhibit A because you never know what you search for. And there have been instances in my case as well. So I don't really write thrillers, but no matter what I write, you know, exhibit now, I think people have sort of understood, okay, it's fiction. Earlier, I would get messages and say, Oh, Michelle, is this you? Are you okay? And I said, No, it's okay, chill. It's it's fiction. You know, there's a reason it's fiction. So, yeah, I do think that, and especially when you know writers who write on dark themes like this, they often joke that when people ask other writers, you know, is this autobiographical? Definitely, they can't ask thriller writers that, because

Devashish Sardana: 42:08

we know. The interesting story to this is that I was doing some kind of a research, and I actually typed that, how long does it take for a baby to drown in the water? And I left the search like that, and 15 minutes later, the younger one, who's 11 now I was this is for the current book. He walks in and he sees the research happening, and he's like, where are you? Drowning me. So I said, just with your homework. Don't worry, nothing else. So it is the kind of what you say, research that goes so living with boys, teenager and Queen, they have their own minds. They really think the mom is a devil. So,

Tara Khandelwal: 42:51

my God, I can't imagine what went through your child's

Unknown: 42:55

such a scary moment. No, imagine. Oh, my God, I can't imagine. Yeah,

Devashish Sardana: 43:00

so it's actually an opening scene of my next book, and that is where I was trying to understand how many minutes it takes. So I went into the details of how much, how long will it take, how many times a baby will come up? So I was reading all that, so it was scary

Michelle D'costa: 43:15

for him. Oh, gosh, in fact, in fact, you know, my next question is about scenes, really, because I can imagine, in like, you know, thrillers have to be written fast paced, right? Every scene has to matter. You cannot have even one scene that sort of drags and sort of gets, you know, the attention away from the page. You can manage to do that with literary fiction, but definitely not sellers. So every scene has to be well thought out. And now I can imagine the research that you put in. So, you know, there's one scene that is that is very vivid in my mind, Nidhi, especially in your book, where, you know, mahika is, is sort of home bound because of her husband, and he's so manipulative that he actually changes the lock every time, and it feels so claustrophobic because she doesn't even get one second outside the house. So for me, my the most moving scene was when she's able to escape. And the first place she goes to is, you know, to search work. She wants to work. She needs a job. She wants to save enough money to to buy the flight ticket back home. So she goes to this restaurant and, you know, strangers sort of see this empathy for her. You know, strangers sort of come to her rescue in a place in Singapore where nobody knows her, where her own husband is sort of, you know, doing this against her. So I really want to know which was your favorite scene from the book and why. So

Devashish Sardana: 44:27

my favorite scene, as you said, my favorite scene from the book is similar to the one, but it is towards the end of the story. Probably I'm giving away a little bit of suspense, but she's locked and in the heat of the moment, lots of things have happened, and we are reaching the climax of the story, and the baby inside, here's something that he shouldn't have heard, because it kind of puts him in a conflict, whether she's really his mother or not. And the mahika, the mother, starts thinking that he has heard, and it is about Dr grace, who's who comes into picture later in the story. And then she asked for the code, because the code has been changed. So she asked for the code. Now this baby can communicate to the mother only by kicking the mother. So he would kick one time. That means one. Five times means five, and they both have established a tandem that every time the father would change the code, the kid would come to know and would, you know, kick and tell the code. Now in the in the heat of the moment when she wants to rush, she has the money, she has the resources to go away, she cannot open the door, and the father has changed the code unknowingly, that zero would, you know, act as a barrier between her freedom and the entire thing. So he kicks. Rudra cakes, telling the code, mahika doesn't get it, because zero means nothing in a cake. So he gets he thinks that he's trying to help. The mother is not getting she's panicking. The mother thinks that he's not taking my side, because he thinks somebody else is his mother. And the conflict that is created by the just the figure zero, and how Rudra waits for me to figure out that this is a zero and not panic, is one of my favorite scenes. The other one, which is equally favorite, is the feminist part of mahika actually taking a physical, you know, violent anger when she destroys the lab, and she throws everything apart, killing the, you know, fetus in the incubator, and creating a mess, which is like a contained rage, which knows no bound, and starts, you know, showing the first sign of strength in a very physical form was The second most favorite, but writing it, I think writing feminine more of mahika taking that leap, was my more favorite scene.

Tara Khandelwal: 46:56

But even as you're narrating this now, I was at the edge of my seat. And devshi, there are so many moments like that in your book also. So some of my favorite scenes were when Simone, who is the lead female investigator, is spending time with the therapist, Diya, and it's because of the way that you portray the character, right? Like we don't know if she's a suspect in the case that Simone is investigating, we don't know whether she's a good person and she's just being a therapist and looking out for Simone, or is she a suspect? And in the session, Simone becomes quite vulnerable, because she has her own disturbing past, and she has to come to terms with that when she's dealing with, you know, this case. So, so what is, what was your favorite scene from the book, and why?

Nidhi Upadhyay: 47:40

My favorite scene was actually the first one, and probably because I wrote it first, and this was the scene where I wrote the last word of the scene and I cried, yeah, and probably that's why it still, you know, remains close to my heart. So the it's the first scene, basically we see this, you know, 18 year old girl. She's in her hostel room, and she's received a box called the dream box. Yeah, and then there's few things inside, and she, she locks her door from inside, and we see that she's, she's suffering from cancer. She has lung cancer. Her mom died of the same, you know, ailment, lung cancer, and she's been with her dad for six years. And there's, there's, you know, she she's thinking about that, and there are hints that she's about to do something, and then she calls up her dad, and her dad loves to sing, right? And then her dad is like, Yeah, I'm coming to the hospital tomorrow to pick you up. And she's like, No, no, no, don't come. And the dad sings this, you know, Lata mangeshwar song, which is, you know, lag jagale. And the last verse of the song is shayed, Paris, Janam, mulaka, tho Nahu. And that's when it it's it strikes the reader that actually moolah Kath ho now, because she disconnects the phone and she knows she's doing it, and she takes a life So, so this was, this is the first scene which, which kind of sets, set, sets. It's up, you know, for Simone to crack the case. But, but, yeah, this was a scene which, which actually, you know, struck a chord for different reasons

Michelle D'costa: 49:23

for me, yeah, and, and, I think with such intense thrillers, I'm sure every scene is challenging in his own way. But yeah, I think the ones that you're narrated as seen just it gave me goosebumps, you know, just listening to it, imagine, like reading the book all over again. Okay, so this brings us to the last round of the interview, which is our rapid fire round. There's no thinking allowed, or you have to just answer in one word or one sentence. What? I

Tara Khandelwal: 49:48

What is one of your favorite psychological thrillers featuring a woman? For

Nidhi Upadhyay: 49:53

me, it will, it would be VEDA claw, that same

Devashish Sardana: 49:56

anything, anything that would be she, the character from Netflix series. The turnaround of that character is something I adore.

Michelle D'costa: 50:06

Nice. Okay, one place that you want your female lead to explore, and

Nidhi Upadhyay: 50:11

why? For me, lost in space.

Devashish Sardana: 50:13

For me, it would be India. Oh, yes.

Tara Khandelwal: 50:18

So if you could meet your female lead in real life and tell her one thing, what would it

Nidhi Upadhyay: 50:23

be? I tell Simone, I love your haircut. She's bald, by the way. So

Devashish Sardana: 50:28

for me, it would be, I would like to be a mother like you for America. Nice,

Michelle D'costa: 50:33

okay, one of favorite psychological thriller that you would take with you on an island and take nothing else along. I would write

Devashish Sardana: 50:41

one there. Nice, good

Michelle D'costa: 50:43

one. Okay, there was she. It's, it's

Nidhi Upadhyay: 50:45

okay. I probably won't. Take a psychological thriller, but I would take

Tara Khandelwal: 50:51

all books. You're only allowed one book. Oh,

Nidhi Upadhyay: 50:54

only allowed Am I allowed an author? So I wanted to say all books of Lisa

Tara Khandelwal: 51:01

jewel. Okay, your favorite psychological thriller of all time,

Devashish Sardana: 51:06

Agatha Christie. And Then There Were None

Nidhi Upadhyay: 51:08

psychological thriller. I would the family upstairs, no, the silent patient. No, the family upstairs, no, the silent patient.

Tara Khandelwal: 51:20

Okay, so the last one, your next book? So it's,

Nidhi Upadhyay: 51:25

it's a continuation of the Simone Singh series, we'll see her solve another, you know, crime or crimes. This time I'm exploring themes of domestic violence and abuse, combining it with sisterhood and then the the strength in sisterhood.

Devashish Sardana: 51:48

So you're asking a mystery writer to give away the secrets. Mine is again a thriller, again female centric roles and exploring the theme of black magic and child loss and how educated person falls into the trap of black magic or things alike. So it's more on the darker side,

Michelle D'costa: 52:11

wow. I think both of them are just, you know, again, very intense, very interesting. Wish you all the best with it, and definitely Tara and I are going to look out for it when it comes out. Thank you so much for this conversation. I think it was, you know, we could go on and on. When we talk about psychological thriller, there's so much to unpack, right? There's so many varieties of characters, so many so many interesting storylines. You know, I do hope that you'll keep up this passion for thrillers, and you'll give India much more thrillers in the years to come. Thank you. Nidhi, thank you. No, it

Nidhi Upadhyay: 52:41

was an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

Unknown: 52:46

Hope you enjoyed this episode of Books and Beyond with bound.

Michelle D'costa: 52:49

This podcast is created by bound, a company that helps you grow through stories. Find us at bound India on all social media platforms,

Unknown: 52:58

and tune in every Wednesday as we peek into the lives and minds of some brilliant authors from India and South Asia. You.