8.8 Bhavika Govil: On Growing Up, Growing Apart, and Grieving Secrets

What if one secret could shatter everything you thought you knew about your family?

In this episode, Bhavika Govil dives into her haunting, lyrical novel Hot Water, a coming-of-age story about the silences that pull families apart.

Bhavika talks about the novel’s striking water motif and the emotional and craft challenges of writing Ashu, a 14-year-old boy and Meera, a 9-year-old girl, and trying to make them feel both real and raw.

This episode takes a deep dive into understanding family dramas better, and how writing about what’s left unsaid is often more powerful than spelling things out. It’s a sharp, intimate, and deeply thoughtful episode on the stories we carry long after they’re over.

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

Tara Khandelwal: 0:01

Foreign Welcome to Books and Beyond. With bound I'm Tara Khandelwal and I'm Michelle d'cota, in this podcast, we talk to India's finest authors

Michelle D'costa: 0:11

and uncover the stories behind the best written book and

Tara Khandelwal: 0:15

dissect how these books shape our lives and worldviews today. So

Michelle D'costa: 0:20

let's dive in.

Tara Khandelwal: 0:22

So today's episode is going to take you right into the heart of a family that's a little bit messy, a little bit broken, but full of love. We're seeing the world through the eyes of a nine year old girl named Meera. Her mom, leela, who's a single parent, and her older brother, Ashu, who is 15 years old, quiet and a bit distance, and all of them are carrying secrets. So this is coming together in bhavika goes debut novel hot water. And this novel explores what happens to family when those secrets start knocking louder and louder, and figuring out how you love each other when it all comes out in the open. So it's a really intimate novel about what it means to love your family even if you don't really understand your family. And I think that's something that we can all relate to in our own ways. And it's really special for Meera bhavika On this show, because back in 2019 bhavika actually won the bound short story prize, and I remember reading her writing at that time and just being blown away. And she's always been a writer that I've kept a look out for. So when this novel came out, I just absolutely had to have on the podcast. Welcome bhavika. Hi,

Bhavika Govil: 1:40

Tara, thank you so much for having me. I've been so excited to be on this as well, and we've known each other in that way for a few years, through our writing and professional journey. So it's super special to be here.

Tara Khandelwal: 1:53

Awesome. So what I really loved about the book is the secrets, right? That is sort of like the main theme in the book. You know, one of the main themes is everyone is carrying something that they're not saying out loud, like the mother character, leela, she is hiding her past from her kids, and her kids know that, you know she's hiding something, and they don't know quite what it is. And then there's Ashu, who has his own quiet Pearl and has feelings for his best friend, Rahul. And then Meera, who's carrying a very heavy secret, probably the heaviest secret. So can you tell me a little bit more about sort of how this theme of secrecy came about? I

Bhavika Govil: 2:35

loved how you framed it, actually, earlier you said that secrets in this novel are knocking it at everyone's door, and they get louder and louder. And this is a novel about a family. It is a novel in a home, very largely confined to the domestic space. So the secrets are, in fact, the kind of secrets that would be hidden in quiet corners of a home, be underneath the carpets collecting dust, you know, be shut behind closed doors. These are not the kind of big secrets that will ever make it to the headlines of a newspaper or, you know, go viral or be said loudly at a stadium. These kind of secrets are the ones we keep from the ones that know us most intimately, and sometimes the least of all, because these are the quiet things about us that perhaps we want to shut away. In the case of my characters, and especially the mother with whom the secrets really begin, she has this feeling that she can shut skeletons and secrets and into the closet and they won't ever come rattling out. But secrets have this way of permeating the barriers that we try and place between the past and the present and the future, and you can't really vacuum seal it. So I was interested in seeing what happens when that seal opens a little bit. What happens when those secrets start to emerge from the past, and what impact do they have on the present? Purely just because this is my first novel, I came to the realization that you don't ever really know what you're writing about. You kind of start exploring and these things, like themes and topics, those you get a better sense when you take five, six steps back, or at least 10 drafts into the process that perhaps I am looking at Secrets. That's the tying factor over here. And in the case of Indian families, we just are so tightly knit, but so often separate, and we have to keep things concealed. You know, there is this layer of we'll abandon you, if you would expose too many parts of yourself, be yourself, but not too much. Okay, that's there in Indian family. So it was an interesting thing to explore in this family dynamic. Yeah.

Tara Khandelwal: 4:54

It reminded me of this podcast that I listened to by Laurie Gottlieb, and basically she takes. Behind the Scenes of a therapy room. So, so it's very interesting, because they often talk about secrets. And, you know, people come to her after they've sort of found out about this family secret, and their family life is kind of imploded. And then when they speak to her, they talk about how, you know, they're always known that something was wrong all along, like they'd always known that something was amiss. And she says that secrets have that power to do that you know, where you always know that something is not quite right. And I think that's something that you've really brought about really well in the book, especially from the point of view of the two children, where they're looking at the mom, and they're saying that, okay, you know, something is not quite right. And she's not a typical mother character either, you know, she's sort of, you know, also a little bit struggling. She lashes out, she doesn't always make the right choices. And the rumors about, you know, like the Meera, the daughters talk to other rumors about her being a whore in school or some kind of nut job. And then, you know, they see her doing things that don't very typically fit into this notion of what we have as mother. And also seen lots of novels, you know, it reminded me of me, though she's burned sugar as well, because that was also about a mother character who doesn't really fit into that normal thing. And in your short story, curl, that was also about a mom who loses her child in a school shooting. So where did your interest in writing about motherhood come from, and why this unconventional mom character.

Bhavika Govil: 6:41

Firstly, if this is the same lorry who's written, maybe you should talk to someone. Is it the same writer of that book? Loved that book, and have to check out this podcast regarding my fascination with mothers. You know, every time I write a story, whether it's a short story or it was this novel. It never intended to be about a mother. Yet I may start with a different character, but the the sentences and the story just leads me to have a fascination about mothers in general. Now I am not a mother. I haven't yet experienced motherhood yet since my early 20s, there is this somewhat often enigma that the life that a mother leads before they become a mother is held for me. You know, you grow up and you see your mom as just your mom. You, in fact, don't even know what her name is, and perhaps she'll make you memorize it for safety reasons or for school, but it's hard for you to believe that she can have an identity different than just being your mother, the one who's feeding you, the one who's clothing you, the one you're very intimately around for the most part, in your early years. So that feeling of seeing your mother's photographs in skinny jeans, you know, somewhat with that Bucha effect with your father, maybe with the sisters, always would be like, oh, this person had a life beyond me, and that's makes me uncomfortable. I don't like it, but it's true, and there's a story there. So maybe somewhere that childhood fascination has bled into my creative work where, yes, the in the case of colon, there was this woman, earlier, I wanted to write about a woman who's experiencing grief, and as I wrote the story, it became obvious to me that that grief is from somebody that was born with inside her body. That's why it feels so absolutely wretched. More than anything, it's it's a part of her that's died so and then here in the case of Ma, well, you know, first you're a reader, right? So these stories that you're mentioning, of course, Avni Roshi book came out when I was already halfway through this novel, but I loved it. I loved that depiction of the mother who isn't always looking out for you. Sometimes is thinking about herself. I love the God of small things, mother as well. She was very loving, but also said some things that deeply stuck with me, like she said, I mean, I quoted it in the beginning of this novel, like I referred to it, which is she tells one character, that's what careless words do. They make people love you a little less. And I think that's what the mother says to the girl at the beginning of God of small things. And you know, I underlined that 1000 times over until the pencil would make her whole in the paper, because it just felt so true. The mothers can also show you the reality.

Tara Khandelwal: 9:43

I mean, it is very fascinating. And I agree, because we all think of our mothers as sort of, you know, these mythical creatures. And I completely relate, you know, when you're a child and you first finding out, oh, my mom had a life beyond me, you know, and seeing all those pictures, that's very. Beautiful. So coming to the Leela character, you know, what did you want to showcase through that, which is the mother character in your book?

Bhavika Govil: 10:07

Well, at first it was just simply, you know, you're playing different voices in your head when you're writing a story, it's as though you are the interviewer and you are the interviewee. So I asked certain questions when I was writing Meera. So I actually wrote Meera spot entirely first.

Tara Khandelwal: 10:22

So Meera is the nine year old daughter. Meera is the nine year old girl.

Bhavika Govil: 10:25

So we begin the story with her, and she sort of introduces us to the world of this family and the background and the dynamics between all the characters. So her elder brother, Ashu and her mother, leela, who we're speaking of. So I had written this novel in chunks, actually, although it appears in a different manner in the final form. In the book, I wrote Meera entire portions together, so I had left certain gaps in the story, and so I raised a few questions that I then started to answer when I put on the role the hat of the mother. So Meera is nine, and she's observing her mother in fractured pieces and sort of glimpses. It's kind of like looking in a fun house mirror, and you can see twisted versions of your mother figure, sometimes extremely loving, sometimes really distant, and you don't quite know what is the right image and who that person really is. And you know you never really will if you're another person, and especially if you're a child. So to enter the scenes behind the mirror and then to wear the skin of the mother was like answering those questions that I had asked my own self, who is this mother, what brought her to this point, what makes her sometimes barter love insidious ways, sort of give more and dole out more to one person, and, you know, treat one with whiplash. Is it whim, or is there something deeper there? And okay, she's a mother, but what else was she like? What was her family dynamics? We don't just like appear on this earth from nowhere. I think our families really shape us, and I keep repeating in India. But really in India, they really do. Who were around, who these formative years are spent with what influences do they have on us? And do we sort of carry some patterns forward, or are we able to break them? Those were the areas I wanted to write about, and why I wrote about, Ma.

Tara Khandelwal: 12:35

And it's very interesting because, yeah, when you started, even in your writing, you're saying you started with the nine year old girl character, and we are dropped into this novel by this character. And before I come to this character, who I really, really found very fascinating, I wanted to get to know a little bit more about you, because I know that you've been writing for a long time. You've been writing since you were a kid. So what has been your journey towards writing, you know, and how and when did this novel actually begin for

Bhavika Govil: 13:07

you? I don't know when I began writing in the real sense. I don't know I was very, very interested in physically holding a pen and paper. So even when I was three and four, all I would want were like two or three things as presence in life. One, a new night suit. I can't quite explain why a matching set, what we call a quad set these days, and two, a brand new notebook and a pen, and if a glitter pen, then even better. So I just wanted to write things on paper. I would write sort of letters to my father when I would go on vacation to my Mercy's place, and, you know, misspelled, I love you, I miss you. This is what I ate today. I wrote a lot in journals, you know, the ones with locks and keys that you eventually lose the key, the key of. And I really was very happy when we began to write with pens in class. We in my school, we weren't allowed to until the fifth grade, so that felt like a graduation to adulthood to have to be able to formalize thoughts with ink and on paper. So there's that relationship of just words and

Tara Khandelwal: 14:16

for your parents, also readers and writers or so now, my

Bhavika Govil: 14:20

mom has an utter fascination for words. She was never a reader, but she really respected it and admired it. So though she didn't grow up in a house where reading was the culture, she made sure that she read a lot to my sister and me so and she reads now. She reads a lot of books now, but she really would buy us books. My dad never said no to a book. So we had this ritual there once a month, he would take us to the bookshop, my sister and me and I guess I would not pick up too many, because I always had this sense of this is one is enough, or two are enough. But even if I had asked for more, he would never have said. Know, said no because he told me that his his father, who I never met, would never say no for books. And he does come from this line of education. And, you know, puzzles, toys, they make, academic books for schools. So there has been this, is this reverence and respect for the written word. So this

Tara Khandelwal: 15:22

is something that you were always, just sort of always attracted to, and I've been working on it for a while, and it really shows the craft really shows, you know, so now let's talk about Meera, the nine year old daughter, and that's how we're introduced to this world. And she sees and hears everything and but she doesn't fully understand what's going on. It's so relatable to, you know, all of our childhood experiences, and it's just so keenly observed. You know, even the thing between her brother ashu and Rahul, she senses that they're not just friends, you know, she senses that, okay, something is up with her mom and the coach character, who also want to speak about so you know how I'm always very fascinated by literary fiction written from a child's point of view. Another book that comes to my mind is room, and room was also written through a child's point of view, and I just found it so fascinating. So how do you even sort of get into that perspective and make it so real relatable, but at the same time so evocative and well written? Thank

Bhavika Govil: 16:29

you. And room is absolutely the first book that comes to my mind as well. In fact, I don't know if I could have ever written this had I not read and loved and been fascinated by room when I read it maybe 15 years ago, or, I don't know when it came out, but definitely more than a decade. Just

Tara Khandelwal: 16:48

to add context for our listeners who don't know what room is about, room is about basically a small child and his mom who've been abducted. It's quite a dark book, who were abducted and have to live in a small, little room. And the child is is growing up, and all he knows is that room.

Bhavika Govil: 17:06

Yes. So that boy, Jack is five, and when I read that book, I was I was stunned that you could do that in fiction and in literature, that you could use words that way and limit them that way, and yet make your meaning so clear. You know, sometimes, and this is something I've noticed in writing classes, and you know, when teaching writing, and generally, when speaking with newer writers, and even myself earlier, we think we have to be really complex with our vocabulary, with our sentence construction, with our phrasal verbs, with just the way we want to put our ideas down, that the more complex a sentence, the better the writing is. But I don't think that's true at all. In fact, the most clear ideas will ring true, donated depicted in a in a simpler manner. That's less pretentious, I guess I want to say, but anyway, that just ties into this aspect of writing from a child's perspective. Any sort of wishes I may have had to show off with my writing, or say it's my debut novel, let me, you know, let me show the world what I can do with which I don't even know, by the way, but they weren't there, because when you have to write from a child's perspective, you are shedding every bit of arrogance that you can build or vocabulary that you have built up to a certain age, because now you have to limit it to the age of nine. And how do you do that? Not entirely sure. But Meera was Meera, who is my narrator, was very curious a child, and luckily, a narrator who also loved words and was fascinated by words, so to explore the story, and you know, see her world from her perspective, was a lot of fun. Once I had figured out exactly how she speaks and what her rhythms are, I referred a little bit to my journals, and I was looking at Meera, but they didn't help too much, because I think Meera is much smarter than I was. My journals were quite insipid. That way about achieving the effect. You know, I did do some research, and I was reading room again, I was reading these books, and I realized that the aim is not absolute realism. I don't think that when you're writing fiction at any point are you trying to fool a reader. And a reader can't be fooled that this is happening, that you aren't currently absorbed within the pages of a novel. They are very aware that this is made up. Maybe momentarily you can lose them to a feeling, to a thought, to a place. But I don't have to strictly sound like a nine year old, as long as I capture the essence of being a child, and I can have a little bit of leeway with the language, the style of narration, the form, in fact, fidelity, is not. My only concern, and it wasn't with Meera.

Tara Khandelwal: 20:03

And also, what I found fascinating is it's Meera is first person, which makes it even harder I can imagine. While you know, the Ashu character is third person. So why did you choose first person for

Bhavika Govil: 20:17

her? Then I began writing this novel, and you know, I never got to that part of how this novel came into being, but it came into being solely because of Meera. I had a narrator whose age I hadn't yet figured out, who sort of senses these undercurrents in her family's dynamics, and she when I first started writing it, Meera was actually an older protagonist. It was somebody who is speaking in the eye, somebody is looking back at entering a living room and sensing that something is just off, like you said, secrets also have a heavy presence, right so that unsaid, that weight of unsaid things, the secrecy, the undercurrents this person was reflecting on them, between her mother and her brother and generally the world. There were more characters then, and of course, it got sharpened and as I wrote the novel, but that person, as I realized, was Meera, and I wanted to bring immediacy to the story. It was a story that had to unfold eventually over that one summer, and I didn't want the knowledge of adulthood in this I didn't want to have figured it out or have seen it and then look at the, you know, it would taint the way Meera would then narrate. It's very real time. Yeah, exactly. I wanted the moment of narration and and the events occurrence being very close to each other in Meera case, particularly, because then you really get into a child's head, and you see what they see, and you see what they don't see. As well as an adult reader, I

Tara Khandelwal: 21:53

like that a lot, because you see it's like sort of, you know, as a reader, you know certain things, but the protagonist doesn't, and I find that juxtaposition always very fascinating. So at the beginning of the book, you dedicated your parents, and you've written the words did flow. So I just want to know what is the story behind that line.

Bhavika Govil: 22:13

So when I was in school, I would you know how in CBSE schools, you really have to, you have to learn a lot of sort of subheadings and paragraphs and go and sort of spit those out on the page. But and my mother was always around, and you know, she would see me struggle to memorize everything. And what she would tell me is that, you know, everything, bhavika, don't worry, the words will flow. When you go tomorrow and you put the pen on paper, the words will flow. And whenever I would come back, I'd say, yeah, it happened. It All. It was all fine. So now months have years have passed, and we obviously have not had context for that inside seeing, in fact, nobody besides her and I know it. She and I know of it. And then when I started writing this novel, I had this little dream that it will get published at some point. I hope it does. And I wrote a dream, a dedication page on my laptop, which had these words. And I kept hoping that my mom will remember what the what I'm referring to at all. And of course, I included my father because I wanted to include them both in in this debut novel dedication. But really it was that that when I started writing this book as well, there were so many times when I halted and I wasn't sure if I could move on, and we didn't discuss it in these precise words, but I wanted to bring back what she would say to me when I was younger. And this is a book about water, so the words did flow. And thankfully, she remembered the reference, and she was kind of happy about it, very I love

Tara Khandelwal: 23:53

that. Yeah, and coming to water, which was a very interesting theme, you know, even the chapters are split into sections name, plant surface float. And it feels like we're swimming through these characters lives, trying to stay afloat with them. And the setting is, you know, this club with a pool. And I think it's very sort of, we've all sort of had those summers where, you know, we would sort of go swimming with, like, other children and your friends and your cousins, and there's a whole community aspect to that. So, yeah, so why the water theme? Why this setting? Why does, why do all these secrets spill out over this one summer? Why is that the inciting part of the book?

Bhavika Govil: 24:35

There is a there is a fascination I have for the swimming pool. And it like, like the mothers that I was talking about, they come out in my stories quite often. So does the pool, which I've noticed even after I finished writing hot water. Some of the short fiction I've written has characters learning something about themselves when they're underwater, and maybe there is the feeling that I get as. A very amateur swimmer, but somebody in the water who at once feels very at peace yet also disturbed. You're suddenly everything is so silent when you're underwater and you're between two places at once when you're floating, you know you're part of one world, which is the world outside the world that's your real life, and then you're in there with nobody else, and just your thoughts and your inner you know, your your depths really come to the surface in a swimming pool. That's something only articulating right now as I'm speaking to you. That obviously wasn't a conscious decision in context of this particular story. I do have, like you mentioned, spent a lot of time at the club and learning swimming and made some fantastic friendships. It is a place of freedom. The summer is a play. Is a time of freedom in my life. You know, we're in school and we have all these time bound exams and activities, and everything is chopped out for you. And how much agency do you really have in your life? And then summer, you get a couple of months, and everything seems wide open, like the blue sky, and you have all these days to spend time in, and then you have the water. And it's just a very liberating time in my memory, and a place where I thought these characters can spend time outside the school and learn more about the family, learn more about each other without the barriers of you know, the school bells and sort of lunchtime coming in the way. And regarding the section titles, I kind of look at this book in retrospect, having written it as a manual to learn how to breathe even amidst the most suffocating circumstances that you may be put through in life. And these characters, all of them, in some way, I wouldn't call this a coming of age book. But in some way, each of these characters are coming of age in this novel, or at or they were, at least in drafts of it that I had written. Coming of Age has different meanings with all of them are coming in to contact with who they really are as people and in relation to each other. And sometimes that comes with a lot of baggage, and being in water is is quite a good metaphor for that to be plunged into life and then bowing up, and then sometimes again, going back down and struggling and finding your way out of that depth and out and finding the lifeboat, or sort of, yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 27:44

yeah. I really like how, like, you've talked about the pool and the whole sort of like atmosphere around it, and, you know, we always sort of associated with this sort of, like, friendly kind of situation. But, you know, it can be also a little bit sinister, like it reminded me of family life Akhil Sharma, where the novel starts with very sad incident that happens in a pool. And also at this in the pool. In your book, we see the coach character. And I was very fascinated with this character. He and MA seem to have something going on between them, and he turns out to be quite a shady character. Meera obviously doesn't like him, because there's an incident between both of them that is not savory at all, without giving anything away. So can you tell me a little bit more about this character and what you wanted to showcase through him.

Bhavika Govil: 28:43

So Coach is this, you know, your typical male character at the club, the guy who has a whistle around his neck and trains the children, is half heartedly interested in his job. Don't really know what his inner world contains, I think I wanted to be a little distant from him. I always saw him from other people's perspectives, but Ma is drawn to him for reasons that I can't quite explain. But Ma has a difficult time seeing what people are right for her, this is a pattern that she's unable to break, and it would be simplistic of me to say now she's learned her lesson. I think sometimes lessons just keep repeating themselves in ways that we would rather them not so Ma has this fascination of not fascination, but like she's interested in the way that coach makes her feel seen, and Meera sees that, and she feels at once uncomfortable, one because as children, we don't want anybody to come between us and our immediate circle, our parents. So when she sees ma hold his hand, her heart sort of thinks that, oh, she has less time to hold my hand. Now, you know, there's a very direct math. Going on if she likes this person, how can she like me? If she loves me, how can she love that person? Is it possible to do things, things at once? So through coach, I was exploring what happens when an external person enters their life, and also how motherhood is so difficult. You know, you can't always blame the mother for everything, but you do have to be really vigilant with who you make enter your your family life, and your your home and your domestic spaces. We don't get to see too much of coach because there are these labels. So Ma is mA and coach is coach. And these kids have this conversation by the pool where they say, Isn't it funny how some people are always known by what they do, and that's true for a lot of characters in the book, especially when you look from a child's perspective, you only see them from that one label, that one lens. So Coach, to an extent, even to me as a writer, is just coach. I don't know his name, I just know that he is somebody that I would keep at an arm's length, and that it's important to sort of really check the people that we bring into our home, especially when children are involved,

Tara Khandelwal: 31:06

yeah, definitely, that's so important. What I was also fascinated with is what you said about patterns, right? And ma choosing, you know, these patterns in life again and again, and we find out through a story that, you know, she does have a pattern of choosing certain men, and that has those repercussions in her children's lives, and that's how all those secrets come out and everything like that. And then, you know, the whole situation kind of implodes a bit because of that. So for that reason, I found this character very, very interesting, and also because he is someone at an arm's length. And also I was wondering, oh, you know, how could she it's a very human thing. It's like, how can the mom not see this? But she has her own lens through which she is viewing the world. So I really like that as well. Another thing that there's so many themes in this book that you brought so well together. And one of the things that I really liked was the sibling bond, you know, between Meera and her big brother. And Meera really looks up to a big brother, and she follows him around. And, you know, she even says things like, Oh, I know him best. And then on the flip side, we have Mark leela, who, you know, kind of has very fraught relationship with her own family and own sister. One of the reasons that, you know, they can't the sibling, the Meera and Ashu can't quite grasp who Ma is, or there's so many secrets. Is because ma herself is very secretive about her family. And you know, when people ask her, she says, I don't have a family. And then Meera and ash were like, oh, but we are right here. And she means her other family that you know something had happened, and she left them and she distanced herself. So yeah, how did you get into the mindset of these very two different sibling dynamics? Sibling

Bhavika Govil: 32:48

relationships have always been a part of my life. I'm a younger sister. I have an elder sister, and apart from that, I come from a really large family with so many cousins that we never really even call each other cousins. We always say brothers and sisters. So that, that has been an intrinsic part of who I am, I think, especially when you're the younger sibling, you kind of you're never just you. You always see yourself in relation to another person who is living a very similar life to than you to you, yet you can sense that there's a gulf between you and them, that you are different people. And in the case of like you, so nicely pointed out, there is mA and her sibling dynamic. That is one parallel in the story. And then we have in present time, Meera, who is nine, and Ashu, who is five years older than her, and she calls him Ashu. There's no Bhaya and all of that over here. So, you know, we see MA and her sister at the at a point where they're little older and and then Meera and Ashu right now, are at the beginning of their life. So to say they're at the beginning of living, what happens to siblings over time? You know, I'm interested in whether, you know, we're so tightly brought together with so tightly stories are so tightly woven together initially in those early years. And then, you know, siblings move out, or they go to college, or you somebody gets married, or somebody, you know, some something happens which is not even external, what happens to a relationship? Then are we able to, sort of like, go forward in life, keeping that bond really close to you, or are we going to move apart and maybe come back together at some point, I see this in a way in the novel that you know, siblings are like siblings are born in the same river, but at some point the chart and the course of that river may dissect, and that's what I wanted to bring out bit in the parallels between them and about just like Meera and Ashu, they have such a beautiful and sweet sibling relationship. Ashu is, you know. Everything to Meera. And Meera sees him for everything that he is. Like you mentioned earlier, he can see who he likes. It's so obvious to her. It's so funny that others can't see it. But you know to know something, you have to see somebody, and you to see them in love. And she's she does that. So therefore perhaps she does know Ashu best, and she's right about that. And as for Ashu, he is older, so of course, he does love Meera a lot like and he's very protective of her, and he is fond of her, but she is his kid. Sisters. Is a five year age gap there, and Ashu has more complicated problems and sort of his own inner world that's vibrant, that doesn't get to be showcased in this home, but he gets to show it outside, and he gets to show it with his friend who he is, if he's if he's funny, if He's witty, what are the sides of him that Meera can't understand his sarcasm and things like that, right? So Ashu, somewhat, is still a little lonely. He's older, so he's in a gulf. He's vacuum sealed in an experience that only he knows the inside of, and Meera can't understand, at least not until they're much older, because there will be that no matter how old Meera gets, she'll always be five years younger to him, I

Tara Khandelwal: 36:11

think you've captured the sibling dynamic so well. And I think I'm an I'm an elder sibling, so it is a little lonely. You know, it's lonely at the top, because you are going through everything and first and having these adult experiences, even I have a five year age gap, but, yeah, that's quite a big age gap at that point, right? And that's a completely different life stage, and you can't relate at some points. And then now, as an as adults, also, you know, I'm finding the sibling dynamics changing, because we're all moving out of the house, we're getting our own lives. Then what happens? And even I wonder, okay, what happens? Sort of like, extrapolate that to like, sort of like, 1020, 3040, years. So I really like what you said about that? And I found the Ashu character quite fascinating, because, you know, he feels like his mom likes Meera a little bit more than she likes him. And for a child, you know, like, obviously, when you ask your parents, your parents, we have no favorites, and you're made to feel like, you know, you're both equal or three equal. But he does feel like there's something kind of a miss, and he compares, you know, how his mom is with Meera, and how his mom is with him. And we kind of find out why that is, in the end. So I found that very interesting and very raw, because it's not something that's spoken about, you know, having favorites. It's always like, Oh no, no, no. Or the different treatment of different children, that is not something that is talked about at all in a family setting. I don't

Bhavika Govil: 37:49

know why it's not spoken about, but I do know I could ever speak about it, and it's not something that I have felt in my family dynamic. I've my parents have been very equal in Meera words, and they're loving, but I have been a kid in a school room who has felt not seen, or can very obviously tell that the teacher has a dislike of me sometimes, or really prefers the other children, and that feeling you can't put into words because you What Do you say? Oh, I feel bad because I wasn't asked to bring the Duster to my teacher and somebody else was, you know, that's how it what it boils down to, right? Somebody doesn't notice you in a moment, or makes you feel a little smaller. And that's one example. But I guess even adults feel that in so many times, right, in a meeting, in a party, on it, on a date, that in a friendship, in a friendship of three people, that the third friend, these kind of dynamics of just not feeling very seen, though, that it's not something that you can ever really bring up this. It's so intangible, this kind of an emotion and ash was right to pick up on these threads. It's really just an emotion. The only difference is that he, as a character, doesn't dwell on it too much, because he does have a lot more going on. He's 14, and he has this friendship that he's embroiled in, and there's something sort of happening, as he says at the back of his knees that summer. And he's got other things he focuses on, or chooses to focus on, but you do pick up on it, they're sort of like, it's like frequencies in the radio. You just just need to tune in and you'll know it's there. It's right there.

Tara Khandelwal: 39:33

Yeah, I really like that exploration as well. So there's so many different scenes in the book, you know. So for you, what was your sort of hardest scene to write and which? Which one is your favorite? So

Bhavika Govil: 39:46

I think for me, all of Ashu was difficult to write and it was difficult to crack I wrote him last, and I just couldn't nail his voice. Tara, it was like I first wrote it in the first person. Actually, I tried to, I did, did not work. He was not a character who wanted to be that vocal and that self aware. And, you know, like Meera, as a narrator, wants to speak instead of blabber a little bit. Ah, she was a quieter person. And I it was just not in his nature to to tell his story in the first person, especially when you have so much going on around you. So I've looked at him through a lens of a narrator then how was close to his head space, close enough to his interiorities, to interiorities to dip into it then, but distant enough to sometimes even make sense of observations that Ashu would not be able to make so I had that narratorial help. It was difficult to get into his perspective, though, because he is, he was sort of the last character I got to know intimately. I saw him from different viewpoints. I saw him from Ma, I saw him from his little sister. And then who was he and how does he feel about this? You know, I was right as I was writing the book, and I was telling you the core of the book reveals itself to you as you're writing it. Perhaps this is a novel about the things that are not said. Perhaps it's a novel about secrets, and perhaps, very importantly, a dark core of this novel is the relationship between MA and Ashu, and I have been tiptoeing around it in these different perspectives, but I need to look at it head on now, and I need to see how this child feels about it at 14 plus, you know, he's a 14 year old boy, and that's a very different perspective for me as a writer to occupy, because genuinely, I have not written Many male characters before this, and particularly adolescent male characters, always looked at them from afar, never had a chance to think what they may be thinking or have empathy for them. And then Ashur made it easy eventually, because he's a very likable 14 year old boy. He's not boisterous, he's gentle and he's kind. Yet that barrier was definitely there. And as for my favorite scenes to write, I know I wasn't particular in which scene was difficult, but yeah, my favorite scenes are really I guess. I loved exploring ashu and Rahul and their relationship. I really liked seeing their friendship and getting into that slightly blissful part of the summer where otherwise certain dark things are taking place. It felt peaceful to be in the in the room and both of them were together. And I also enjoyed the scene where I the earlier scenes where Meera is sitting in the car with ashu and MA. So I introduced the world through the children sitting in Mars Sun yellow car, and they're going around town, and they're seeing what the neighborhood looks like, and the gulmoha tree, and, you know the way that electricity wires are crisscrossing in the sky, things like that. I enjoyed. It felt like a fun little happy ride, though it wasn't obviously, but to be in the car with the three of them and see their world and introduce it to other readers was quite enjoyable.

Tara Khandelwal: 43:13

Yeah, I think teenage, 48 year old teenage boys could, might as well be another species to me. So I don't know you wrote that, but it was really well done. So which one, which one was your favorite character? Do you have a favorite character?

Bhavika Govil: 43:28

If I said that, I'd be that teacher who's giving a duster to another one kid, right?

Tara Khandelwal: 43:33

Fair enough. Fair enough. Maybe you secretly have one. And you know, I also wanted to know about the journey towards publishing because, you know, it's a debut, and I think a lot of people want to know how that process was, and you also have an international agent who's now pitching it internationally, and this cover is just fabulous. I really, really love the cover. So, yeah, could you tell me a little bit more about publishing journey, yeah,

Bhavika Govil: 44:04

so I been writing short stories for a few years, which is, we were talking about girdle and the bound short story prize. You know, that was actually my first ever writing win, and it was the one of my first few submissions. And it felt like the biggest win in the world to have somebody read your work and think it's good enough. So that was six years ago. Now I'm afraid to say, time has passed, and shortly after that short story and I wrote a few more on the summer of 2020, I began writing the beginnings of this novel. At that time, the novel was called the silent treatment, and I, I just sort of begin, begun exploring my way through it, not really knowing exactly what the books about what perspectives would be in it, what the technical decisions would be. Simply put, I was just fascinated by this. I. This family and the ways in which they were unraveling. And, you know, you pull one thread, and everything would collapse. And I could sense that, and it's so fragile, the bonds in which they were keeping. Started writing that, and it was the pandemic. I was submitting it as a dissertation project for my Masters, and I had 20,000 words to write, and those happened pretty easily. Have a surprise, because it was my first novel, and I don't don't know how to write a novel, so I wrote Meera spot, and then months passed, and I have no idea what to do next, because I'm stuck narratively and plot wise. I didn't know what comes next, so I saw a call for a writing prize, which was by an agent, Pontus agency in Spain. That agency, at that time, used to represent Avni Doshi and Janice parriot and Shivangi Swaroop, all of which are such phenomenal Indian writers that I just applied it was a prize for a novel in progress, so you don't have to have it figured out. Essentially, you submit a synopsis in around three chapters or certain number of words to the prize, and that's it. You send it in and you wait. So I sent it in pretty much not thinking too much. In fact, I kind of forgot about it because there was another wave of the pandemic and there were more important things taking place. And yeah, essentially, I got shortlisted for that prize, and then I co won the prize with another writer that was 2021 and suddenly things just sort of became a little better. I had an agent now that was representing me and somebody external, and that to international, saying that, yeah, we too, see, think that the story has scoped to be published, and that you must keep on writing it. So I did. I spent the next year and a half going over, finishing one draft and another, learning every time that it's not working. I've heard so many times that we love it, we love the voices, but, you know, it's not a novel yet. It's like vignettes. Or maybe it should be one character only. Maybe it should be only these two characters. Perhaps you'd want to change this about it, everything well meaning, but nothing was coming close to what I saw the book as. It wasn't matching my vision for the book, which I, too, was discovering. So it was a lot of back and forth and a lot of trying to crack the structure. I guess that's what I'm speaking about, the ways in which things should unfold, the timing of things this, the ways in which chapters and sections are divided, that kind of a thing. And then a couple of years later, around 2023 we got when we felt it was good enough to at least go out to publishers. We submitted it, and that's when I got the publishing deal with Harper Collins, India, with at that time. I mean, even now, my dream editor, Rahul Soni, and I, since then, I've also worked with dharni Bhaskar, and it's thanks to the editors and thanks to time that I gave the book that it's come into the shape at which I am genuinely happy, people are saying it's a novel. In fact, it says a novel on the cover. So I'm very happy about that, so to say. And now it's out here, and I can keeping my fingers crossed, and please cross yours that it gets deals abroad. I do have a translation deal for France, so that's exciting, and the cover is beautiful. It's thanks to the lovely Bonita wa shimre, who is a designer at Harper Collins, and she really read the book, interpreted it, and wanted to bring out the depths of it as well as, like, the lightness of it. A lot of hard

Tara Khandelwal: 48:42

work has gone into the book. And, yeah, those, those are fantastic editors, and it's definitely the hottest book of the summer, because I'm seeing it everywhere, nod magazine, platform and even the marketing of the book. I mean, it's sort of one of those books that you want in your beach bag as well. That's not a beach read. A beach read, yeah, but no, I'm really glad to see sort of, you know, so much publicity and well warranted. So what's next for you? What are you doing next? What are you writing on next? I have

Bhavika Govil: 49:21

been writing snippets of things, things that don't really form a part of any thing large or anything more whole. Honestly, this past month has been really sort of being lost in marketing and publicity and conversations about Meera, Ashu and Ma, so it's nice to live with them a little bit longer and hear what other people think about those characters, but like, I'm journaling a lot these days. I'm trying to see what's occupying my mind. There is just so much going on with the world itself that it's an explosion of thoughts and feelings. And I will be writing a book. Next for sure, I I have a novel. I have a contract for a novel, so I have to write one, really. This is the French deal. Ah. So anyway, irrespective of that, I would be writing a book, and it would be a novel. I just don't know what, quite yet, though, like a voice is coming to my mind, and it's not a child, and I'm interested in seeing who it what they have to say and who they are, and I think I also repeat our short story. So I would love, at some point to put together a collection, sooner than later. But yes, these are the projects that I can see, but I need to work on them. It's

Tara Khandelwal: 50:44

very exciting. And I love reading short stories. I love a good book of short stories. Jhumpa Larry, short stories are some of my absolute favorites, and even Akhil Sharma.

Bhavika Govil: 50:54

I must read Akhil Sharma. You You mentioned, yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 50:58

he's one of my favorite authors, definitely. And I think you, particularly after reading your writing, will really enjoy but thank you so much. This was so much fun. I think I learned a lot more about the characters, and I always love finding out about the stories behind the stories, and speaking to fiction writer. So thank you so much for this.

Bhavika Govil: 51:21

Thank you so much. Tara.

Tara Khandelwal: 51:24

Hope you enjoyed this episode of Books and Beyond with bound.

Michelle D'costa: 51:28

This podcast is created by bound, a company that helps you grow through stories. Find us at bound India on all social media platforms.

Tara Khandelwal: 51:36

Tune in every Wednesday as we peek into the lives and minds of some brilliant authors from India and South Asia. You.