8.3 Tara & Michelle: Can You Love a Book But Hate the Author?

Should we boycott problematic authors—or just read them with guilt? Tara and Michelle dive into the messy politics of author scandals, from cancel culture to complicity. Plus, what happens when AI writes a book? Would you read it? Should it even exist?

Tune in for a no-holds-barred chat on the ethics of art, the limits of accountability, and how readers can show up for real authors in a shifting industry. They also spill on their own reading dilemmas and the murky line between loving the work and questioning the creator.

Books mentioned:

• Train to Pakistan by Khushwant Singh
• Dalit Kitchen of Marathwada by Shahu Patole
• Books by Janice Pariat 
• The Twits by Roald Dahl
• Jasoda by Kiran Nagarkar
• Fault In Our Stars by John Green
• Neopolitan Novels by Elena Ferrante
• Harry Potter Series By J.K. Rowling

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

Tara Khandelwal: 0:02

Welcome to Books and Beyond. With bound I am Tara Khandelwal and I am Michelle D'Costa, in this podcast, we talk to India's finest authors and uncover the stories behind the best written book and dissect how these books shape our lives and world views today. So let's dive in. So how are you, Michelle, how's New Zealand going?

Michelle D'costa: 0:25

Hey, it's going good. I'm having fun. And I think in the past nine months, I've seen three seasons. I came I landed here in like, peak winter. There was summer, and now it's autumn, so it rains just any time of the day, so I don't know when to carry my umbrella and when not to but otherwise, it's going good. I'm working on my second novel, and it's sort of like it's very challenging, because I've reached that stage where I'm sort of not just writing the first draft, but also, like polishing it. So it's no it's very stressful, but it's also fun. What about you? What's going on with you? It's been so long since we met? Yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 1:07

I know like we usually talk only about work and things. So these podcasts are a good way to also catch up that what's going on with me? Nothing much. I think it's just sort of like mango season and summer, and I'm just very excited about this new season, because we have quite a few, you know, interesting authors and, yeah, things at bound are really chaotic, as you know, but really good. So let's talk about like, speaking of chaos, you know, let's get into today's topic. So the question we're going to be answering today is, can you separate the art from the artists? Yeah, I mean,

Michelle D'costa: 1:44

I remember, you know, I was discussing this in like, one form or another while we used to have our lunch breaks in the office. And it's, I think it's sort of interesting, because, see, for me, honestly, this is something I didn't think about growing up, you know, and you know, like, for me, like I studied in a CBSE syllabus. And, you know, just like in any curriculum, what we are always given, like, a certain text, a certain, you know, textbooks to read. And obviously, you know, as a kid, you don't know much, and of course, like, I loved the stories that I grew up with, like, you know, they literally, like made me imagine. They made me sort of think they made me want to read. They made me want to write. It was so much fun. But also, now that I've grown up, and I sort of, you know, look back and I reread something, right? This happened to me the other day where someone was just, you know, in New Zealand, asking me, What did you study in India? What was the sort of curriculum you had? And then when we had this discussion, and when I mentioned certain writers, I realized that, oh, like, okay, you know that some of their works might not go down that well, especially, especially in today's day and age and and I sort of realized that, yes, like, you know, like, we all are humans, right? We all are we all are people. We're people with different personalities, different thoughts, all of that. And that really made me start thinking about the art versus artist. I don't know what about you? Have you always been thinking about this?

Tara Khandelwal: 3:04

So I think the bigger question of someone's work was such a big part of your childhood, and you realize their values don't align with yours later on, do you still read their books, or do you just move on? And yeah, I think the answer is tricky, because the work is definitely part of your memory, right? It's part of who you were when you first read it. And I don't think we need to throw that all away, but I do think we need to read it a bit differently right now, with a little more awareness. For example, I recently picked up train to Pakistan again. And, you know, I really love partition novels. I did my thesis on the partition as well, and it's a brilliant novel, and when you read it, there's a when you read his writing today, there's a lot that feels dated, you know, because I remember he, I once read that. He said feminism is a Western import. Indian women don't need it, you know, which is a ridiculous thing to say, but he said it, and I'm not entirely sure if I would not read that book again. Would I, sort of, you know, boycott him, no, but definitely I'm a critical reader. That's why I'm bringing this up, right? But I think there's some accountability that comes with being critical reader, and especially now we have so many authors from underrepresented communities also that are getting a chance to publish their book that those reflect our present reality much better. And it brings me to something I've been wondering, you know, the I'm really liking some of these books that I'm seeing from different communities. So we just, sort of, we just interviewed the author of this wonderful book called the Dalit kitchens of Marathwada, which brought to light, you know, recipes. It was a cookbook. You know, we've been interviewing people, you know, from different communities, different voices, a queer community. And it's really great that, you know, there's a seat at the table now. So my question is that, you know, since there's so many people now, the seat at the table, which didn't. What they didn't have before. But do you think it's enough? I

Michelle D'costa: 5:03

mean, actually, I have been, yeah, because you know me, right? Tara, I'm always, like, trying to keep in touch with, like, what's happening, be it literary journals. You know, you know my obsession with literary journals, so I keep, like, a highlight on my Instagram, also where I keep looking at calls for submissions. So, yeah, apart from literary journals, I think I've also been noticing a lot of publishers coming out with calls for submissions. And what is interesting is they've come out with anthologies that focus on particular communities. You know, I've seen that. I think there was a anthology recently just about Northeastern voices, and I thought that was pretty cool, because as someone, you know, especially like the time I was introduced to Northeastern writers, was when I went to Bangalore, you know, I don't think there would have been any other way I would have actually learned so much about Northeastern writers had I not been there. So, yeah, I think so seeing that book, and seeing seeing so many anthologies come out these days, I do think that publishers are moving in the right direction, giving more space for diverse voices. But are they enough? I don't think it's enough, because I also feel like we have a lot of mainstream books, and if we get more anthologies, more opportunities for writers from marginalized communities to, sort of, you know, get into the mainstream, I do think that will be, that'll be more interesting, you know, like, Who wouldn't want to hear more diverse voices? Yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 6:25

is it about the art, or is it about the artist?

Michelle D'costa: 6:29

I honestly think, especially, especially if you're talking about stories from marginalized communities, I do think it's a mix of both. It's also because identity. It's also because these stories are just, you know, they are. This is just magical. So I'll give you an example, right? So the stories that you see coming from the northeast, they have a lot of folklore. They have they have a certain flavor to the stories that you wouldn't see, let's say if they came out of any other region, right? Why? That's just because it's, it's the way stories have been told in this region for years, right? Let's say, like oral storytelling, stories that have been passed down through generations. It's just a style. It's just so let's take, you know, Janice Pariat, for example, right? So if you see her stories, there's always there's magic, there's myth, there's a little bit of, like surrealism and all of that. So, so I do think that in this case, it's a mix of both. Because even when it comes to the identities of these writers, right, I do think that it'll be interesting to sort of have them in all mainstream, you know, literary festivals, in different programs. I do think visibility matters. So yeah, I mean, I thanks for asking that. Actually, I didn't think about that before, um, while, I while, I obviously love the, you know, richness and variety of stories. I do think that the artist also deserves, like, more visibility. I think

Tara Khandelwal: 7:49

that one thing is, yeah, we need a representation of different voices. But I don't think it's about art versus artists in terms of this. I think all artists are creating something that is an extension of themselves and their lived experiences. So you know you are talking about the northeast and how you know they have a culture. I am an Urban Hindu privileged person, and my art would probably reflect that. Like I don't think you can avoid the creation of something from the personality and the way that someone has been brought up, because I feel there's no debate on that right, like the identity of the artists and the work that they create stems from their identity and their experiences, and whatever, you know, inputs they're putting into the system, the conversations they've had, the culture, all of that, What they want to put in the question is, what happens when an artist does something unsavory or and or when? Now, what you mentioned, you know, from your childhood books, when you reread something taken out of the context of its time, that does not sit well with the current scenario. You know. Firstly, should those books, you know, be published or not, you know, so should they be reprinted? For example, my friend was telling me about Roald Dahl and he has a small niece, and we all grew up reading Roald Dahl books, you know, I love Roald Dahl books. And so he basically got the republished version of Roald Dahl, which was cleaned up, the twits, I don't know if you remember the twits that book, and he had his old, old school version, you know, which he had. And then I was sitting with him, and I was comparing, what is the difference? And we were just saying, oh, you know, I we totally understand why it's so sanitized now, but some of that charm also has gone away. So I think that is the main question for me that you know, when the either the art becomes politically incorrect or not serving us anymore, and you know, it can be also subjective, right? Like, do I want my. It to have a curse word or not in the book is something. These are subtler things, but there are also objective things, like, oh, somebody is something really bad to some physically, you know, up then you know, we going to boycott that person you know. Or someone is saying something about a community that is really, really hurtful. You know, should we work or that person and their art? Or should we only, sort of like say, okay, that person, we may not do anything, but we're still gonna watch Harry Potter, for example. I think that is something that I want to explore, yeah,

Michelle D'costa: 10:39

and that is something that's super interesting, because I've been thinking about that a lot. So let's take the first scenario, okay, for me, especially when I read texts that have sort of, let's say maybe they have not aged well, sometimes, right? Sometimes, when I'm, and this is very subjective, it's a very personal opinion, I might feel different tomorrow, but I think sometimes I feel that, you know, we can maybe give the author the benefit of the doubt. And the reason I'm saying it is because we are in a time and age where we are hyper aware. And the reason I'm saying hyper aware is because, you know, we have social media, we have all these platforms. We are well read, and there's just so many avenues, right? So sometimes I do think that probably, you know, had all of this awareness being there back then, maybe, maybe the text would have been different. I don't know, right? Sometimes I think that. Sometimes I'm like, Oh no, this just rubs me the wrong way. Read for this. I'll give you an example. So there was this um, book, I don't remember the name, but I loved the humor, like, like, maybe just like, four to five years back, you know, I love the humor. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is super funny. I gotta, I gotta, like, you know, and I kind of like sardonic humor, so it's kind of like that. And today, when I reread it, I'm like, Oh my gosh. How did I ever like that kind of humor? Because it was kind of like condescending, kind of like making fun of others. And I'm like, No, that's not right. So I do feel that sometimes, you know, text, even if it's contemporary, it might not age well, it might not sit well with you. I think for me, in especially like, you know, in the past year, I've been thinking a lot about this, because, you know, we keep hearing about, you know, let's say writers doing this, writers doing that, so many things. And you must have heard of Alice Monroe, and you know, after her death, her daughter came out with this explosive letter, and everyone you know found out about what happened. So I don't think that what happens though, especially like for me, it shatters the image of the author that I had in my mind, you know. And I'm sure it happens too, especially if you're a fan of that author. So I think for me, the struggle more is like, Can I, can I really separate the author from the work, right? And this could even be, this could, let's say, even if it's a movie, let's say tomorrow I find out something about a director or something about a producer or an actor and all of that, right? Like, because I'm a person who loves art and loves cinema so much, sometimes it becomes so difficult to sort of, you know, like, like, I honestly, if you ask me, I find the words boycott or, like, ban and stuff a little too extreme, right? It is just, it's just the way I think, because I feel every, every piece of art should be appreciated, but sometimes it becomes really difficult. I don't know. Do you have the same struggle? Is it the same with you or, or is it sort of like crystal clear, like, if you know something about someone, you just, it's just gonna change your opinion about them.

Tara Khandelwal: 13:27

It's not crystal clear at all. You know, when you said, like, you know certain things like are in the context, it made me think of Karina Kapoor and her size zero phenomenon. I was talking about this in another interview earlier, and because when we were growing up, she was all about the size zero, and she was promoting that there was this movie Tashan, and where she was, you know, like size zero. And what does that do to like body image? And now in her interviews, she mentioned that she's like, See, I didn't have that context. Then, you know, now I am like, if you see her, she's all about body positivity. She roams around without makeup, and she says that, you know, that was a product of her time, like she is very much a product of her time, and that movie is, like, very much a product of our time. So I think seeing things in that, in that way, I think that, you know, I kind of give it a leeway, you know, because they are products of the conditioning, and they are accepting and evolving with the times as well, right? So, so where I, where I find it very difficult to separate, obviously, is, as I mentioned before, if the artist has done something really, really terrible. So, for example, you know, Kiran Nagarkar, me too. Case there was stuff coming out about him. I had just finished reading his book, jasoda, and I really like his writing, by the way, and he passed away like not soon after. But yeah, I mean, I don't, not sure if I would read that book again or not knowing. So you know what I do? That being said, I love Harry Potter, and I would watch the movies, and I would read the books again, because for me, they're their own world. The question is, would I? Would I go back to old work? Right? Maybe I would go back to old work, like kiran nagarkar's previous books, because there was a whole team also behind that. There was editors or the people involved, you know, and it already exists as its own thing out there, which is a life of its own right. Would I read new work? I think for me, that's that question, right? And maybe I wouldn't pick up new work and endorse new work if the artist is someone that I really, really whose values I don't align with. So the I think that is a very straight, you know, black and white answer for me. But when it comes to old work, I don't think you can be black and white because it is nuanced in itself, because there's more people, and one person, at least in movies, who like make those things happen.

Michelle D'costa: 16:10

Yeah, I do agree with you on that. And I think just as you right, like, as you said, it's a very, I think, personal thing, even for me, right? So sometimes I'm okay with with, let's say, reading a book, but if I know that the person has done something terrible. So I recently read this news about this very famous author, about the very, very nasty things he has done to women and and as you said, I think, I think what you said about reading old work versus new work is something that I think will apply to me, because what's already out there, you can't do anything right about it. It's already there and you have consumed it in some way or another. You might have liked it. It's just some, some of them are your favorites, right? So it's really tough to detach yourself, but I totally agree that, let's say now you've decided, okay, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna consume any of this author's work. Now on I think that's, I think that's sort of a fair, fair thing, but I do believe, I don't know it's a little tricky, but, like, it's not just the work, right? So let's say, would you boycott the person as is, right? So right now, right now, like, let's say, when we discuss art versus artists, it's not just the art they create, it's the person as a whole, right? So let's say the person's on Twitter, speaking. Let's say the person's on Instagram, posting updates on their life, right? Do you think it's sort of okay to like, even boycott the author or like as a person, but let's say not the work?

Tara Khandelwal: 17:32

No, I think that I'm against cancel culture, especially like for things that were in the context of a so I will not cancel Kareena Kapoor because she was talking about size zero. I would not cancel friends. I would not cancel. Roald Dahl, right? Would I would cancel people who have physically harmed another person and are still trying to, you know, think and think that is okay, and think that they coming back like the me too, right? Like they have physically harmed someone, and they are coming back to sort of, you know, act like it's okay. The system is geared towards that. So it's not like I want to boycott or cancel anyone. I will not endorse them further. Their art exists. I've consumed it, and I'm okay with that. I think another question is that, in terms of separating the art and the artist, is the question of something called, never meet your heroes, right? The art, the person who's creating the art is is informed by the life choices, but ultimately, the art takes on a life of its own. And if you read something and you're like, Oh my God, this resonates so much with me and my values and things like that. And then you meet the person, like, for example, like Harry Potter, like I love your story and everything and the values and all of that, right? And if you meet the artist, and you expect that artist to be like the magical world they've created, or it's like, if you meet a comedian and you expect them to be the funniest person every line you know that doesn't happen. So I think that, you know, I really believe in not meeting your heroes sometimes, because you will be disappointed, you know, so or you will. You may or may not be disappointed, but you should not put anyone on a pedestal just because you've created a work of art that you really, really like, and you really love, really love, and the book is connected to you. You are relating to the work. You're not relating to the person. You don't know if you will relate to the person until you actually meet

Michelle D'costa: 19:32

them. That that actually reminded me of a very vivid scene from Fault in Our Stars. I don't know if you've seen it. Tara, so it's the movies based on the book and all of that. So there's a very interesting scene in that where the girl meets her favorite author, and she's so disappointed, because she thought he would be this really nice, caring, calm person, all of that. And it turns out to be the most like, I don't know, rude, grumpy, like, person that that she's met. And it just it shatters her. And I. Image,

Tara Khandelwal: 20:01

yeah. So I think, I

Michelle D'costa: 20:03

do think that, you know, that's, that's something, but I also feel that's a little tricky, it's a little difficult, that, especially, especially now that, you know, we've developed this culture of, I mean, it's not just fans who, like, you know, wait for us in line. It's, it's also this, I think the boundaries have blurred, because now we have access to, you know, all the people we love, right on Instagram, especially in our influencer culture, sort of model where, you know, there's contact with people, there's contact with like, you know, contact with fans. Like the whole, the whole idea of, let's say, you know, why are books doing so well? Like, you know, especially books written by, let's say influencers, celebrities, so many, so many books are selling. Why? I also think it's because there's contact with with fans. So it's a little bit tricky. But I think never with your heroes is a little bit a little bit difficult here. But I do agree that that's one way of separating, you, know, yourself, yourself from the author. Yeah.

Tara Khandelwal: 20:55

So at the retreat, we are the writers retreat. We had recently we were having a very interesting debate that I want to bring up here. Also, the mentors were the same Tashan Mehta, and Chandrahas Choudhury, and we were talking about fan fiction. And we were talking about how, you know, everybody knows what fan fiction is, is that you know, you're a fan of the work, and you want to be in that world a little longer, and then you like, take, you know, characters, and you make parallel stories about them. Then we would, then we were discussing between them, you know, like, Would you really like it, or would you not? And it was very interesting, because they both had different views. One of them said, No, you know what? Like, I don't want my work to, like, be fan fiction, my work exercises, you know, I don't want, you know, I'm very sing. And then one of them was like, now my work is out there, and I every fan fiction is like a love letter to me, because people enjoyed the work so much, you know. So that was also very interesting in terms of, like, putting into the context of the art versus artists debate that the art definitely has a life of its own, and the work definitely has a life of its own. That's why the artists are creating. What they're creating is because they wanted to live on after and a great example, another great example of works that live on and are disconnected from the artist is John Keats and Vincent van Gogh and all these kind of people who never saw any success in their lives. They barely sold any paintings. John keats died at 25 he did not know that he was going to be such a successful poet. And they actually got fame, you know, posthumously. So they don't even know, you know, how big they are right now and how much their value is. And I find that so fascinating and also so sad, you know? Because, yeah, I mean, you creating so much, and you want that validation, but you're not getting it, but the work will live on forever and ever. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa: 22:54

and I think two things come to mind here. Just imagine a world Tara, where we don't publish our works under our name. I'm just thinking, let's say, let's say everyone has a pseudonym. Let's say, let's say the publishing world is like, we only publish you if you have a pseudonym, for example. Just think of this, you know, dystopian or utopian world, whatever it might be. How would we ever know the identity? Right? Like, let's just, let's say, example, Elena Ferrante, right? I love her work. You know, people love her books, Neapolitan novels, all of that, but nobody knows who she is, right? We don't know who she is as a person. Just, just saying, right? So what if, let's say, what if, just a hypothetical situation, we find out tomorrow, and we don't like certain things about her, what's going to happen? Right? It might, it might crash her entire work. Or it might just, I don't know, like people might be more curious to write a work I don't know, the

Tara Khandelwal: 23:45

art versus artist debate actually also makes me think of AI, because if it's not about the artist and it's just about the art, right? I mean, I was playing around with AI yesterday, and AI can do amazing things, I have prompted it to write a full screenplay. It didn't write it, but it, you know, with its help, I could turn out a pretty good screenplay with characters, and it won't be jumpa re, it's not going to be Amitabh, but it's going to be average. And I often wonder about that versus artist thing when it comes to AI, because I think that's a very relevant topic. You know, we saw the whole Studio Ghibli, you know, thing, where they took that image, and everybody was creating its own thing. And what happens to the artist in that context, and is the way we consume art going to change? Is it not going to be about the artist at all, but just about the work itself, and if the work is amazing, if AI created another Harry Potter which was just amazing and gave so much joy to people, would I mind if it was created by AI, if it was that good? Yeah,

Michelle D'costa: 24:55

that's very interesting, food for thought, I think. And I think that's when that. Really, really highlights or focuses the fact that, let's say anything done by a person, right? It could be a small sculpture, it could be a book, it could be a huge monument, right? I think Humans inherently are flawed. Unlike AI. Of course, we'll come to AI, but I think unlike AI, Humans inherently are flawed. So I do feel like sort of, you know, giving, giving people the benefit of doubt, or giving people a little bit, a little bit of that leeway is important, because I'm not, I'm not here. I'm not defending any, any person who is evil, who is criminal. I'm not saying anything like that, you know. But I do think that artists work really, really hard on their work. It takes, sometimes it takes years and years to create something, right? And I don't know, AI, and how long did it take for AI to write the screenplay? By the way, it didn't write

Tara Khandelwal: 25:47

the screenplay, but it did manage to write a little bit of one episode, not with its instant Exactly.

Michelle D'costa: 25:53

So AI, I think it would just hardly take, like, half an hour or something to create something like that. But, yeah, I think, I think then we would just lose the whole debate. But what I also think is, especially with the model of AI we have right now, what I've heard is AI is it just doesn't create something from scratch. It takes, obviously, it takes from whatever it has out there. So whatever it has out there is inherently human, and it has all the influences. It has everything mixed up. So I think what will happen here is it will be very difficult to pinpoint. It will very difficult to say, oh, but where did this come from?

Tara Khandelwal: 26:23

If AI creates something that is so amazing, it's so fun to eat, like, say, in five years, AI gets so good, yeah, that it just creates a piece of art that is so involving. Would you care if it's created by AI, or would you want because the art is amazing and the book is so amazing, or whatever the movie is so great. Would you be, like, it doesn't matter.

Michelle D'costa: 26:46

Wait, no, sorry, I'm very confused. What do you mean? So AI is creating, if AI created the

Tara Khandelwal: 26:51

next Harry Potter, would you mind that it was created by AI? I get

Michelle D'costa: 26:57

what you're saying. I don't know. Like, I think, I think because AI is still, is still in a nascent stage, okay, still, we're still sort of, we don't know what AI is really capable of. So I do think that, I do think it will be really interesting to see even the way AI evolves, right? And we all evolve as artists, right? We also, like, I mean, we start out writing crap, we start out, and then, you know, our later works become, you know, much better. I do think that even with AI, we will, we will sort of be patient with AI. We will be sort of, you know, we'll give it the benefit of doubt. I do think that the initial, sort of, you know, drafts might not be great. Well, my

Tara Khandelwal: 27:33

question about that, my question is very simple, okay, in five years, AI is amazing. AI is fantastic, right? AI can create a book that is amazing.

Michelle D'costa: 27:47

Let's say as good as, let's say as good as Harry Potter, for as good

Tara Khandelwal: 27:50

as the best of the best. And a new, unique concept, perfect, as perfect as you can get fun to read interesting. Would you care that it's made by AI, or would you read it and participate in it anyway?

Michelle D'costa: 28:08

I would, yeah, that's, I mean, the main reason is because I love art. Like I said, I love art. I love I mean, yes, I do, you know, just because, I mean, honestly, just because I'm a writer, I have this obsession of looking at writers bios and blurbs before I read a book, right? But let's say I separate that identity. I separate the identity of a writer. I will consume the work irrespective of of, let's say who's written. Because I just want to enjoy. I want to enjoy. I want to read the good story. Yeah, definitely. I shouldn't

Tara Khandelwal: 28:37

wait. Shouldn't bother me, not give I mean, if we want to protect the sanctity of artists, shouldn't we not be promoting AI as creations? I mean, something to prevent that. Or can we? You know, that is my question. AI is the greatest representation of art, having its own life devoid of the artist. So I think, sort of like, it's very interesting to see what happens, because I think this debate is even more relevant now, because of AI, because, you know, the creators who actually sort of like creating things and things like that, I wonder if, as a as a human population, we are moving towards that space where it doesn't matter who's created what, and, you know, if it's good, it'll have a life. I think only time will tell. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa: 29:33

totally. I think, I think if it's AI, and it's not something that I want to promote, but I do think there's some things that inevitable, especially when it comes to technology. You know, being a 90s kid, I've seen like, I've used the Walkman, and now we are in a completely different generation. So I do think that AI will just spiral. And just like any any other technology, we have different versions of it, right? But I am, I am all for, like, freedom of speech, and that includes AI, okay, but, but as a writer, honestly, as a writer, I do believe. That your identity is a very big part of your writing. And I'm saying that from experience, because, let's say, right? You've read my work, you know, I always, almost always, write about migration, right? And why? That's because I felt it very deeply. That's because I have been a migrant for most of my life, and it's not something I set out to write, right? You don't decide one day, oh, I'm going to write about migration? No, it just, it just subconsciously comes to you. It comes to your writing, and I think that's, that's beautiful. I think it's you, right? Let's say now, for example, you there might be certain themes, there might be certain things that you feel strongly about, you know. So when you write, it's going to come out. So I do fear as a writer, that I could protect that space. I could be like, okay, just it. Could just be us, you know, artists, but we are also flawed. I feel humans also flawed. So when it comes to humans writing, it, it's very tough to separate both the art and artist 100% and there are so many things that are going to come up. Um, I think in some cases, some writers are just recluses. Some we don't even know what's happening in their life. And some people are just, let's say they're out there, right? And we get to know a lot of information about them. So it's a bit tricky, but I do think that if AI comes up with anything that's like, fabulous, I am gonna, I am gonna consume it. Why not? Like,

Tara Khandelwal: 31:09

I think, I think my point you're trying to make is you're one on the one hand, you're a creator. On the one hand, you're a consumer. As a creator, yeah, as a as a

Michelle D'costa: 31:19

creator, I want to be biased, right? So the Creator, I want to feel like, okay, no, but you know, artists have their identity that, and that's, you know, it's beautiful, like it comes out through their writing orders, and that's what creates the art, right? But on the other hand, as a consumer, if AI, let's say, creates something fabulous, I would love to, I would love to consume that. Yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 31:37

I don't know if I wouldn't consume something so fabulous, you know. But I think in the future, what I see myself doing is definitely promoting artists more and more and more as AI becomes, you know, better and better at what it does, and we don't know, and this is just it, just purely hypothetical. I have no idea what AI is going to do. I have no idea what it's capable of, and no idea what the laws are going to be and how this whole thing is going to evolve. This was just a fun hypothetical thing, but I do believe in promoting artists a lot, and you know, because it's very special thing, and they give us a lot of joy, and this is what we do in our free time. What do we do? We consume music, we watch movies, we go to art galleries, we read books, right? These are all things that are being created right now, at least by somebody. So I think it's important to promote, and I also think it's important to look be critical when there's something going wrong without, actually, you know, going ahead and having a unilateral decision, which is, okay, I'm going to cancel a boy call someone, because that is very extreme, unless there is an extreme circumstance. So that is sort of my conclusion, if I had to wrap this thing in a bowl, yeah.

Michelle D'costa: 32:50

And I think this also made me think about something Tara, because I'm currently doing my MA in creative writing, which is literally about writing. So I was just thinking, if AI, if AI, takes over, we might not have these programs anymore, but on the other hand, we might even need it even more, because then, as you said, right, you want to promote more artists. I think at that point we will be so protective of individuality, so protective of of, let's say, like human thought, for example, that I think, I think people will crave for, for, uh, content written by, written by writers like I know, I know that it's never going to discourage me, but I can only say that about myself, right? I'm not talking about the industry or publishers or what content is going to come out. But let's say, even though I know if AI can write 10 times better than me, I'm still going to write because that's all I know. You know, that's something that brings me joy. I don't know if anyone's going to read it, but yeah, I

Tara Khandelwal: 33:40

actually feel like, while AI might like, get to, like, the general, the demand for excellence will it'll raise the bar. And, you know, like, I think there'll be even better writers out there, because it'll sort of like, you know, raise a bar, and there will be even more need for MFA programs and things like that. Because at the end of the I think my question also about, would you, would you watch something that's so fabulous with creative and AI, it comes under trust. The one thing that AI cannot do, right though it can, pretty much in like a future, everything. But can I trust it the way, I know an integrity. If an artist has integrity and has created something with, you know, their full imagination and put their soul, I'm not talking about the artist values and talking about the process of creation. I trust that that story is really original, that it's come from a special place. And I know that, you know that that thing is something that we cherished, but the AI feel like there's that element of human trust and human emotion which makes it less special, even though the work might be amazing for me. Yeah, and I

Michelle D'costa: 34:55

think, I think that really sort of reminds me, like, why? I really enjoying interview, you know, authors, like we were discussing the other day, right? What is it about BNB, what is it about books and women that we love? Like I was just thinking, right? Tata, if something's written by AI, who will you like? What? What would you ask process, for example, right? So I think the reason I really started like enjoying interviewing writers is because I realized no two writers are the same. Everybody has a different approach, right? And on the podcast, we have interviewed writers in different genres, but sometimes it's the same genre. For example, let's say we are interviewing crime writers, right? But it's a very different genre of crime. It's a very different approach, different style. So, yeah, I think, I think there's so much beauty in each each individual authors process. Imagine I was like, interviewing, AI, I don't know, but yeah, I do. I do think that that the fact that we have interviews, the fact that there are literature festivals, the fact that there is, there are opportunities for us to even engage with people in US India process is because of that you know, like, we never know, right? You never know, like, what's going on in our mind? I think, I think, I think our mind is, like, the most mysterious thing ever. So, yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 36:08

yeah. I mean, what makes us and, you know, how does our like, how does it all like, come together? So I think, I think that's a great note to end this conversation. Because, you know, yeah, we're doing this because we want to get inside the minds of these authors who are creating these amazing works, and the season is going to be more power packed and as power packed as our previous seasons, I think we've only gotten you know better enjoying it more than ever. So hope that everyone who listens in loves the season as much as we have recording it, and we have some amazing authors coming up. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa: 36:41

totally can't. Just can't wait for the episode. Super, super excited. Okay,

Tara Khandelwal: 36:45

Michelle, thanks. I think this was a very interesting discussion. Lot of food for hot. I know it's quite late there in New Zealand, so yes, let's maybe, yeah, we keep connect again and have one of these long, winding chats. But yeah, good night.

Michelle D'costa: 37:03

Fear. Bye.

Tara Khandelwal: 37:06

Hope you enjoy this episode of Books and Beyond

Michelle D'costa: 37:09

with bound. This podcast is created by bound, a company that helps you grow through stories. Find us at bound India on all social media platforms.

Tara Khandelwal: 37:18

Tune in every Wednesday as we peek into the lives and minds of some brilliant authors from India and South Asia, you.