6.19 Anita Mani: Meet India's Brilliant Women Wildlife Conservationists

Who is India’s first ‘Birdwoman’? Who is the ‘Turtle Girl’? 
How many of India’s women wildlife biologists can you name?

In this episode, Tara speaks with Anita Mani, editor of ‘Women in the Wild’ - an anthology of stories of India’s pioneering women wildlife biologists.

 From the 1940s to the present, Anita features the profiles of Indian women who dedicated their life to protecting biodiversity, from Jamal Ara who spent her life studying birds and mysteriously disappeared one day, to Vidya Athreya who studies the human-leopard conflict, and contemporaries like Divya Mudappa who studies rainforests!

Anita talks about her own interest in wildlife and bird-watching, how the women in her book made path-breaking findings across forests, rivers, oceans and mountains, and what the wildlife conservation industry is like for women- from remote locations, long hours, lack of beds and toilets, and even close encounters with wild animals! 

Books and authors mentioned in this episode:

The Peregrine - J.A. Baker
Jennifer Ackerman
Madhaviah Krishnan

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Chapters

• 0:00 Books & Beyond Intro
• 0:23 Introduction to Anita Mani
• 38:53 Books & Beyond Outro

Transcript

Tara Khandelwal  00:01

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Books and Beyond. And today we are very excited to speak to Anita Mone who's anthology women in the wild unpacks the lives of nine fascinating women, wildlife conservationists in India, who are the first in their field. And through this book, we journey across the length and breadth of India's wild spaces, from forests, rivers, oceans to the mountains. And we go along this journey with these women to these remote locations, they have long as no no beds, close encounters with animal close encounters, it bears some very, very interesting stories how they deal with sexism, the male gaze. So right from vagina, who's one of India's first female herpetologist, whose research into the killing of Olive really turtles led to Indra Gandhi banning the total trade to Jamal Ara, India's mysterious Bird Woman. There's so many of these women have seen it all. And Anita is so passionate about wildlife conservation that she has her own imprint with Jagannadh. And what I really, really liked about this book, apart from you know, all of the beautiful, amazing wildlife that you feel immersed in, is the fact that it really Chronicles these firsts. You know, growing up, I grew up in the 90s. And even then, there was such few role models. We didn't even see women in the workplace when I was growing up. And these women not only have left, you know, conventional roles, but have gone beyond desk jobs, something that I couldn't even think of going out into the open when there was nobody in front of them, and really gone into the field. And you know, this is sort of like a fantasy for all aspiring women, conservationists out there. So let's hear more about these phenomenal women from Anita and how they pioneer the way into this very, very interesting field. Welcome, anytime

Anita Mani  02:39

 Thank you. And yeah, happy to be here and excited to talk about the book.

Tara Khandelwal  02:49

So before we begin, you know, I want to know all about the stories of these women. But before that, I want to know a little bit about your journey, because your journey you've written in the book is very similar to migrating bird, because you oscillated from newspapers writing for newspapers to a corporate career. And now back to writing. So when did you get interested in wildlife? Was it present during all of these changes in your careers? And why this book now?  03:22

So lessons. Yeah, I mean, it's been a really long, strange journey. I trained as a journalist, I wrote on Communications and Information Technology for several years. And I worked with an investment banks that raise capital for communications companies, incubated a software startup with them, ran those operations for a bunch of years, and went back to write went back to doing more consulting for for a few other companies, and then came back to writing so. So dramatically, communication has been the only thread that sort of holds my career together. The interesting wildlife came much, much later that say, about 1516 years ago, when I began bird watching, so and it's been a really interest that has gathered more and more momentum as the years pass. And it today sort of It's a hobby, it's work. It's what I do. It's actor defines me in many ways, I think, for myself, not always of public definition. But I think in terms of my outlook on many things, on public policy on, on, on rights on on the way we live, I think it's all shaped by this interest. Yeah, so we the tragedy, of course, is that I was doing a job with a software company that had operations in some of them was remarkable geographies we had, like projects going on across southern Africa, Eastern Africa, Central Africa, in Southeast Asia, all which are burning hotspots and that, to this day, I bemoaned the fact that when I was working for them and could have traveled to all these places, I wasn't much of a burden at all. So, so really, there's been ironical twists in the day, so to speak,

Tara Khandelwal  05:25

oh, god, yeah, I can only imagine the missed opportunity. But anyway, there'll be more opportunities coming up as well. And what's so interesting about this book is that you've edited it, it's actually an anthology of all of these different essays. And it's just not just a one off thing. In fact, you have an imprint with Jagannadh, specifically for bird lovers, conservationists and policymakers. And the intent is called Indian data, which is where his book is published under I was very interested in that as well. Because as someone in the publishing industry, when I saw that juggernaut has an imprint just for this audience, I was wondering, you know, how did this imprint even come about? And you know, that that much of a demand for such stories about, you know, about this topic and the audience for it. So if you could let me know a little bit more about that. I

Anita Mani  06:16

think there's an upsurge of interest in activities like bird watching, I think the pandemic provides its own impetus, because everyone said better to be outdoors and indoors. So bird watching is an outdoor activity that you can do in a city, you don't necessarily have to go too far off exotic places. And at least in India, we seen a huge upsurge of interested in wedding like delivered crap outings where, you know, in the layers, when I started working with the club, we would have 5678 people on a walk on a Sunday weekend morning, today, for the more popular walks, you will get, like 5060 100 people. So so I'm really there's been a huge amount of interest in in bird watching and bird photography. And I think that's what made me think that, you know, maybe I should marry my interests in writing, like I was, before I started in in Rita, I was running a children's newspaper for 10 years. So you know, writing has been an area of interest, but to marry my interest in writing and burning, and I think juggernaut saw the opportunity in terms of a be having a niche committed audience, you know, because India, although we have good books about birds, many of these were like field guides, which helped you identify a species or more academic writing, there wasn't a middle path, you know, Popular Science Writing, which talks about nature, ecology, landscapes, habitats, and experiences, that that sort of, you know, well written. I mean, I think that's really important for Indian. But I think that's, I mean, I like to say, I think that our books stand out as much for the subjects as the fact that how well they are written, they appeal to a broader audience. You know, I think juggernaut I think the saw and they saw the opportunity in, in speaking to such a niche audience, a committed audience. And that's why we do the idea of, of intrigue for nature, wildlife, that's broadly our canvas and birds was born.

Tara Khandelwal  08:31

Yeah, that's very interesting. And the writing is fabulous, you know, the kinds of journalists that you also commissioned, and that you've curated, each one of them really weaves a story of the each of these women really well. And I identify with that, because during the pandemic, there was nothing to do so I will also go up to my terrace every morning for a walk. And the only thing to do to keep me entertained was to look at all the Eagles and wonder about what they're doing and why they're doing. And then there was some parrots Spyros I suddenly became like, really interested in bird behavior where I wasn't before.. Okay, so coming to the stories of your book. So the book starts with a very interesting profile of Jamal Ara, and she is India's first female self taught ornithologist who is a person who studies birds and I love that she is self taught. And her story is written in such an interesting way because she comes onto the scene, she writes a number of scientific papers, she becomes quite well known. And then she disappears. So, you know, the person who wrote I wrote this essay Razzaq, as me, he's a wildlife historian. And he says that until the 20th century, you know, ornithology and been a male Bastion. So she really was, you know, a pioneer in terms for women in terms of birdwatching. So could you tell us how you found this fascinating profile? And how you decided to include it? And can you tell us a little tell? Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about this woman?

Anita Mani  11:33

Right, the Jamela essay itself has a story behind it. When I was sort of putting the idea for the book together, so I had a long list of people that we could write about, right. And the idea idea was to match the property people we wanted to include with the writers we knew them were so and for some Jamela, was in my list, because, you know, she has written the book with the longest publishing history in birding, the simple booklet published, but NBT called watching birds, and many about watcher who began in the, you know, 80s and 90s, when there weren't too many books around, probably bought the book. And it introduced you to birds and watching common birds around you and things like that. And many people thought the sheep Jamela was also a man because the name doesn't suggest immediately the agenda, right? So but, and I, we couldn't, I couldn't find anyone who knew much about German arrive to search German around the internet, three women in the wild is no information. And, you know, I was chatting with Ashish Beatty, who is also an even better author, and she she's an authority, you know, on the bibliography of South Asian ontology. And a huge group is hands and said, There's hardly any information out there. And I think he or she doesn't know that there are very few people who actually do. So I said, Okay, we packed it, but I'm still going to see whether we can find a way to bring a profile of Jamal Orion to the book. And it so happened that I was introduced to Razak as me in a completely different context. I wanted to talk to him about his work and maybe talk about whether he could do some writing for Indian picta. And I began telling him about the books we were doing about women in the wild. He said, Hey, Anita, you know, I'm actually writing a long form essay for another long form essay portal. On this woman ontologies from Ranchi. No, who's no no one knows about. So I said, Raza, are you writing a profile of German IRA? And he says, Yes, how did you guess I said, there's just a lucky guest. I said, Hold it right there. And then when Raza has academic edition, his you know, his ability to deep dive into topics, anybody who's read his work, and I have been reading him for some time is well known. And so I knew if he's on the on the heels of uncovering Jamara story probably has the best bet of coming up with a really arresting profile. So on that call, I persuaded him to stop providing this piece to the long form portal message that's published in the book, and then you can publish it wherever you want. I'll make sure that we know that permissions to do that. So luckily, rather having like the idea, he agreed, and then, over the next few months, I think he did this what I call as the jury forensics in terms of uncovering any bit of information about Yamamura that he could find online. He tracked me, he had already tracked down Jamala rostrata. And he explains in the essay how that happened clearly by chance. And Monica is really old and frail. So you know, we missed probably among the last few opportunities to actually document Jama Lara's life. So the essay came together in this most even most amazing manner. It is almost as though it was meant to be and the minute I knew I had Jamala. In the book, we said we will read the book with her because in essence, she's also the first of her kind. And, you know, in terms of wildlife biology, she's among the earliest women to work in this space. So yeah, so that's how the precisely

Tara Khandelwal  15:02

on this very interesting, I love hearing about the stories behind the stories. And the stories themselves, you know about these women and how they were in the field, you know, the travels that they took all of that was so interesting. So my favorite story was about with the Aarhus studied leopards. And she studied how leopards can actually live amongst human populations. And I found that so interesting, because there was you. She you described in the book, the sorry, the journalist describes in the book, how she's to call her these leopards. And what used to happen is that they used to reforest these leopards, so they should take them from these agricultural lands and put them back into the forest. But that actually led to a lot of stress and a lot of human leopard interaction. Whereas actually, you know, leopards can coexist with humans. And there's this one story of a joba, who means grandfather, he's a leopard, where they released him somewhere and and then he made his way all the way back to his home, which was in Bombay. And it just made me think, you know, recently we have so many stories of leopards in Bombay, there was leopards in Nasik leopards, and it's become so common. And I think she she is one of those people that sort of, you know, have made it more normal for us and made us understand how, you know, leopards can actually live amongst human populations. So that was my favorite story. But I wanted to know from you are all of the stories in the book, which was your favorite story?

, let me let me answer this question a little differently. I will pick one essay over the others. But but something that I had a very strong connect to was the story about JFK Jr. No, who is photo verges photo is the one on the cover. And in many ways that that that is special to me, because it was Beegees photo that triggered the whole book in a way. When I started in theater, two summers ago. I was mulling, mulling over the kinds of books that we would do in the first year. And I mean, this photo I had seen some some many years ago, in Sanctuary magazine, and it sort of jumped out at me and I was like, Who's this really vibrant, active person that saw the photo so intriguing in many ways. So I've been reading up about with you over the years about her life, and, you know, the the highs and the lows, and there were many high highs and many lows, and she grew up in Chennai of the 70s and 80s. And I'm a child I go to. So this is City I understand, I mean, I know the social milieu in which she grew up, and how difficult it must have been to deal with carrier challenges and her personal challenges, you know, in that setup. So I guess a great connect, on fact, without even knowing her or her family. So and I remember I was I think somewhere in the Garro was a magalia When I said okay, we just got into this book. And I want to see whether we can get Zion Whitaker to write the profile because I work with Vichy so managed to connect with her all the way across from somewhere in the middle of the Garo hills. And as I said, I will do the profile but of the family at least because it's important. It's a sensitive story in some at some levels, it was important for her that the family be fully on board. So then, right from there, I remember getting hold of VG sisters who are still one of them, who lives in Delhi, the other in Chennai. And we had a conference call one late one evening and they said yes, we are happy to produce jewelry to actually make it to a book. And and so yeah, and and it's such a beautiful photograph that it just so organically went all the cover. And I think like I said, it is so fitting because this is a photo of that, that that was a trigger for the book for the whole book for me at least. That put the idea of the book in my mind. And yeah, so I'm so so happy that it actually made it to the cover. So suddenly,

Tara Khandelwal  19:24

I was gonna ask you about that and for context. She is totally got and also called turtle girl India's first herpetologist to document yes and yes, first he female herpetologists who documented the movement of turtles all over the country, and are actually going to ask you about the cover of the book. And this brings me to the next thing I was curious about is 

Tara Khandelwal  20:21

what about some of the reactions to the book.

Anita Mani  20:26

That's the amazing thing. I mean, not a single one of them had any idea, I think, until the book was out. And we were just doing the launch event in Bangalore, when we got a lot of the biologists who could come to Bangalore, on a stage to talk about issues around women in the wild. And that's when a lot of them actually gotten over the book, the book had just come out, just sending out the the preliminary copies. So the subjects and the authors, I mean, that's how non self absorbed these women are. So you know, I think that makes a point there because nobody asked me who else is in the book? You know, and stuff like that? No. I mean, many of them read their own essays for the first time. I mean, they had read them, I'm sure whether it's provided was being created, but in its final form, they all read it in the book. So yeah, I think that's definitely all far too caught up in their own work, and what drives them rather than no book like this, you know, it's really an exercise for them and hoping to share the message in order to, you know, sort of get the message across to other young women entering the field. I think that's the only motivation for participating in a book like this. I don't think there's anything else. Sure.

Tara Khandelwal  21:45

So what is interesting, you know, that there are certain patterns that came out in all of the value just live from the hard work that persistent or male dominated field. And, you know, there are the obvious problems, like the potential lack of sanitation working in extreme temperatures, by what I also found interesting was that you say that women biologists are often discredited for having emotions about their work. And there's an example of Jane Goodall being made fun of for naming the chimpanzees. Yeah. And I found that so weird. And I also started thinking, you know, about this whole, this whole need to angle as well, like one, one aspect was the emotional angle, which is the labeling and all of those. And another angle that I found very, like, Strange was not strange, but it made me think about how me too, is prevalent in every single industry. Right, from, you know, obviously, we take when we think need within corporate film, all of those things, but it is prevalent everywhere, right, from, you know, this field to the field of even philanthropy, right, the field that you think, oh, probably, you know, wouldn't happen. It's just happening everywhere. And I found it quite shocking. Shocking. Yeah.

Anita Mani  23:07

I mean, yeah, I agree. Because, you know, in a sense, the issues that these women faced is not different from the issues women face in other lines of business. But the what makes the citizens for lack of a better word unique is the fact they are working in remote places, you know, where you're making a whole bunch of adjustments, you're often working at night, you're working, we got access to you know, proper loose, sometimes, you know, you're working here, or hours long, I was typing that aggravates a lot of the underlying issues, and that they come out in different ways. So, yeah, I think gender is an issue when it comes to, to work culture, no doubt about it. And sometimes it's very well meant, well meaning, generalization of rules happens. So where other male colleagues don't want you to do certain things, because it's not safe. So they worry about protection when they should actually be worrying about enablement.

Tara Khandelwal  24:08

Right. Exactly. Like also the certain in the book was mentioned that certain areas are considered unsafe for women to go to. Yeah.

Anita Mani  24:17

I think so. It's, it's, it's I'm not saying that the general truth. But honestly, after burning some more, some of the more remote areas in India, I think we are far safer in the remote areas where everyone knows everybody rather than in the hubbub of cities, when no one knows anyone, and there's no accountability in the system at all.

Tara Khandelwal  24:37

Yeah, I've actually spoken to some other authors who have done a lot of research and rural India. And there is always this conversation, you know about women's safety. And that is a hindrance that is a hindrance to women, journalists, researchers, people in conservation. Some of them have to resort to taking sort of male guardian some of them have to opt out. And I think that was showcased really well in the book as well, especially in a field like this where you have to be, sort of it is not a desk job. And that's what's so remarkable about this, especially since some of the stories, you know, women in the 60s and 70s, where it wasn't even heard or for women to leave the house. And some of them even came upon the, upon this passion of theirs very serendipitously where, you know, they just had love for animals. And, you know, sort of forged ahead and duty were the first women to do this. Yeah. It's quite remarkable. And it makes me think of another book called Lady doctors by Kavita Rao, which is also a book about, you know, first the first female Indian doctors, and how, you know, we are so used to having like, we want role models, I want to see someone who had been doing it before, but I just find it so fascinating that, you know, at a time when it was just unheard of these women who had had their mind open enough to conceive of something and go and do it, which is a good thing. Yeah.

Anita Mani  26:08

And I think that's, that's the same reaction that's, that's the book has had for young biologists. I mean, I've had a chance to talk about the book with some young science students in cities like Hyderabad and Pune. And it has really resonated with women. I mean, they say, Okay, this book is talking about stuff that's happening to me in my life, you know, and that validates what I'm going through. Because a lot of you know, there's there are, there are very few platforms to talk about some of the issues that these women raise. And sometimes you're not necessarily looking for a solution. You're just looking for solidarity, or shared experiences and validation of what your one is personally going through, you know, that I'm not a loony for getting worried about what's happening. To me, this is actually a legitimate concern is a legit issue. Other people have been down the road, so maybe I can learn. So I mean, I've had so many, so many young men walk up to me and say that we really, really resonated for us. And I think that, for me is too fantastic validation for the book, and the fact that there was a need for something like this. So yeah, I got some of the stories. I mean, with the US work, since you mentioned with, there's well known, I think, especially in Bombay, where her work with leopards with sgmp is very well known. But the idea of this book was to give space in the long form. You know, we all are reading these short newspaper articles that don't cover advances. And I think as a society, we are so becoming so averse to advances. And in the long form explores that, and I was so certain was so clear about it, that we could have cover 50 women if we had just read a few short essays, but that was not the intention of the book, the idea was in the book, to dwell on the journeys. And you know, while the women in a sense, are there, because of the outcomes, what and what really stands out in the book, other journeys other than outcomes.

Tara Khandelwal  28:03

Yeah, definitely, from you know, the marriages to, you know, this mental Jamara as a mental health issue. That is why she disappeared. So the exploration of that. So there's a lot else that's going on in the book. And actually, that brings me to my next question, is that, you know, you mentioned in another interview that women in this field, definitely the numbers increasing? And so how did you pick? Sort of, because there are only nine essays? So what was your curation process? How did you sort of pick who you want to include whatever people that you wanted to include, which you said, Okay, maybe not now, maybe next time? What was it like,

Anita Mani  28:42

with our long like, is it we had a long list, and of course, I was jumping on about it for quite some time until until a friend of mine sat me down and told me that you know, that this is all fine. All these women probably deserve to be there at some level. And there is not a single woman on another Romulus? Who doesn't, whose story is not not worth telling. But he sat down and said, Look, you need to have criteria, so you can justify to yourself, first and foremost, and then justify to the world at large when you get asked the questions to what the pick these women in the book and not others? Well, for me the answers has two layers. One is the fact that we had room only for a certain number of profiles, you know, there's a publishing budget at the end of the day, and I was very clear on long form. So that means that we could only cover an X number of profiles. And the second was at the the criteria that I applied was we because it was the first book of its kind and there hasn't been an anthology in the same line. It was very important to have to cover women whose work or had substantial impact on species or landscape conservation. So that's where I sort of took my cue from broadly. But having said that, and I think I've said this every every time and to everyone who wants to listen or doesn't want to listen, that is not an exhaustive list. We because, like I said, there are so many stories out there that just need to be told. But we had to make a start somewhere we had to do. And also, what also guided me in some ways subliminally maybe not overtly was was who the writers knew? You know, sometimes the choice of, you know, do we cover a or b is also made? Because I have a brilliant writer who knows a very well, well, and, you know, so then it becomes easier to commission saying, Okay, let's do this profile, because I know that you'll be able to get under the skin of the person and tell the story the way deserves to be told.

Tara Khandelwal  30:33

And then you have sort of like a mix of like, obviously, would have a mix of like, time period, or species or what those criteria as well,

Anita Mani  30:40

no, not. I mean, he says, wanted to do broad geographic spread, and not concentrate only on women from one part of the country. So we have women from the Northeast from the west on the coasts, you know, it's got a broad suite of profiles covered. Yeah, but we, but there was not these were those who are rigid criteria, the the important thing was outcomes. That was really primarily, I mean, tada, stuff was just, you know, was just secondary, trying to get in there one night. Yeah.

Tara Khandelwal  31:17

And did you sort of have any directive? So the writers who are writing these essays, for example, you know, how much of the personnel to bring in or any format? or anything like that? Or were they sort of free to write it as they would? What was your editorial input?

Anita Mani  31:32

So the most of them are published writers in their own published authors in their own right, you know, so there's very little I need to tell them when it comes to how to deliver the story, right. So I think the only thing I was told them was to that we had a broad word limit. That is, and it is long form, so that they could then you have the space to, to that to get into the kind of detail you don't get the luxury of getting into it other times. But like I said, I My job was really very editing with a very light touch. I also I would like to delete so you might be to ask my writers whether the phone's true or not.

Tara Khandelwal  32:16

Okay, and what kind of books I mean, do you like what coloration So I recently read a book called what's left of the jungle by Nitin sacre?

Anita Mani  32:25

I finished the same book last.

Tara Khandelwal  32:30

Oh, okay. Yeah. So I did I absolutely love that book. Because it really sort of through the eyes of a villager actually told us so much about the practicalities. And, you know, the conflicts that humans and animals face when it comes to conservation. So what other books would you would you recommend?

Anita Mani  32:53

I don't recommend I mean, that's something I just don't know. I think everybody's in the industry. Didac say that these are the books, the books I love. I mean,

Tara Khandelwal  33:00

which ones do you like, which ones do you like, on? No, I

there's always this question of is this we do the headlights normal because I cannot suddenly remember any of the other books that I've read. It always happens so you should pee for this question at least I love reading anything that Jennifer Ackerman has written because I think it is like her writing style. I I really a book classic book, which is very green which is I think the book that started the whole tradition of I think natural history writing enjoy reading you know me Christians work because it is right so very well about words and about nature in general. There's a meditative quality which I think is so is like bomb in today's fast paced world. I think this is hard. So yeah, I mean, let me think of more examples. Yeah, that's the other questions because if you but these are the books that I would say you know, when it is interested in natural history, Krishna and read, read the pedigree in your read, you read books, they will shake up because they give you an idea of what's happening in our jungles at this point in time. And yeah, and that those experiences are really worth no writing. More talking about

Tara Khandelwal  35:01

Yeah. And apart from Gemelas story, you know, which will be other most challenging essay for you the commission and the anthology.

Anita Mani  35:10

That is not so bad. I mean, Jamel was difficult because it's going to be me until I found Raza, I had no hope of taking the story out that is relatively easy, you know, in terms of finding finding writers and who knew the subjects well to be able to, to be able to put together that kind of profile, no problem was

Tara Khandelwal  35:32

it was it difficult to find and was any other person that was able difficult to find information for know how like, so how was information available, because

Anita Mani  35:41

most of the writers knew the subjects already. And that was really important for me, like I think Anindo had had many interactions with with spanning many years. Similarly, I think, like Vietnam or new Moran Krishnan, for many years Nihon yogasana, for a long for a very long period of time. So those were, I mean, if it is challenging, I wrote two essays in the book about two men who, whom I didn't know at all and, and thanks to travel and other issues. I've never to date Matt, and Anthony, well, who all are conversations, we're currently online over zoom calls, like, and two phone calls, WhatsApp messages, but she was incredibly generous, you know, in sort of opening up her mind opening up her thoughts opening up a life story, I mean, in great detail. So yeah, so that, I think was challenging for me, because I had to speak to a whole bunch of people and, and then write with authenticity. And I think, Well, luckily for Divya Karnad, she happens to speak at Ashoka that semester. So she wasn't too far from me. So I managed to go across the meter a few times, we were able to connect anyway. And we're going to Chennai girl. So you know, there's a certain social history that is that is common, you know, I know the milieu in which she grew up. So yeah, so it's like, so for me, those were the cool, really challenging essays to commission, which I wrote myself because of, you know, having to get to know your subjects really well. My other writers, I think they just knew the subject really well, that really, really helped because you get to the get to the heart of it so quickly. Yeah.

Tara Khandelwal  37:23

So did you sort of know that these like you would have identified these writers? And then so you would have known that? They knew their subjects and all of that, which is why permission them?

Anita Mani  37:34

Exactly. Exactly. Because that was that was really very important. Because you can't hide in long form, how easily skim with seven words, I can write on anything on anything for seven little words, not a problem, but pushing into a long form when you when you have to look at detail. Look at perspective, there has to be genuine interest in knowledge, I think. Yeah.

Tara Khandelwal  37:58

And also keep the reader engaged as well. Give the information in an accessible way. And then the fun we

Anita Mani  38:07

can boring and textbook style, which is, which is I think, like a dead as far as leaders are concerned. Yeah, so the unforgiving Right? Absolutely. Pass PE paragraph one on page one, you're gonna sue.

Tara Khandelwal  38:23

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm writing non along for myself. And I think there's a particular magic to it. So my last question is, sort of, you know, there's so many books and there's a sort of, you know, audience went in but but do you think that these sorts of books can go beyond that audience and help creating an interest in conservation among a broader audiences? Well,

Anita Mani  38:49

that's what's been really interesting. Lessons for a book like we will require that we be nothing the book has done so well, simply because it's reached out to that audience of people beyond those interested in wildlife. And I think that's because the book is in excess of several lines. It's you have a one on one the wildlife and conservation rather being gender and women's issues. The third being science. No. So whether you have larger interest groups, or when you are the you are the you're the confluence of many, many of several interest groups. And that's why you can sort of reach out or make an impact on society, no wider audience. Similarly, I think Ashish pities Gupta living here is not meant for not just meant for hardcore birdwatchers, but for the person who just likes to be likes to observe things around him in a city in his urban setting. I think that again, is a very broad based group. So I think we are reaching out to two people and and I think the crux of that is accessible writing. You know, to not make it forbidden In too difficult and too far away, right? No, I think you have to write in the form is as as important as the content here. And I think that's how we reach out to people.

Tara Khandelwal  40:14

Yeah, absolutely. And what do you think for you is the biggest difference between yourself as an author and as an editor?

Anita Mani  40:24

The editors job is much easier. It's hard to write it requires. I mean, it's exhausting. It's it's got many highs and many lows, more lows than highs. It's tough, you know, when you're researching and writing, but there's a magic when it all comes together. But I actually love editing. I love the idea of doing things together. So you know, so looking back, when people people heard in the first year, I was editing in an anthology, and we call it the anthology out in New York. So people were like, you crazy. I mean, let you know why you're taking this really difficult project, but easier to deal with one author, one book. But yeah, but I just, I just like the whole idea of weaving multiple ideas into a book. And I think it's fun. Yeah. Geez. So I mean, why not? Do more of them? Yeah,

Tara Khandelwal  41:17

we also spoke to him Ali, so the hood in the book of the dog. And it was very interesting also to hear about her perspective on how to put an anthology together, and the curation of that as well. Okay, so that brings us to the last round of the interview, which is called the rapid fire round. So you would have to answer in one word or one sentence and no thinking aloud. Okay, so one animal encounter you wish to have.

Anita Mani  41:47

Oh, watching brown bears in luck.

Tara Khandelwal  41:50

Wow. Okay, one character from history that you want to meet

Anita Mani  41:58

Charles Darwin.

Tara Khandelwal  41:59

Oh, we're super interesting. And one place you want to travel to?

Anita Mani  42:08

Only one let's carry on. Okay, next

Tara Khandelwal  42:10

one, please. Who wants to do next?

Anita Mani  42:17

Hi, Maria. I

Tara Khandelwal  42:19

Amalia It's okay. Okay, one tip you have for writers who want to get published with Indian Tata be authentic. Okay, what's next for you? In terms of Indian betta? What was getting published?

Anita Mani  42:33

Books, more books, more books. So we have a bunch of books coming out this year, including, you know, revised edition of a classic wildlife book. We're doing? We're doing our first autobiography. And we're doing another anthology. So what's not?

Tara Khandelwal  42:49

How many books do you publish a year?

Anita Mani  42:53

So we did three in quick trot. Okay. Because I think the ambitious and exhausting. I think this year we headed on the sea and headed at the same pace at

Tara Khandelwal  43:04

three or four. Wow, that's fantastic. Yeah. The

Anita Mani  43:09

fingers crossed. Yeah, a lot of

Tara Khandelwal  43:13

commissioning and then also editing at the same time. Yes.

Anita Mani  43:17

I mean, that's what I do. Yeah.

Tara Khandelwal  43:18

So you would be doing around like six, seven projects?

Anita Mani  43:23

I don't think so many, three, four is more likely to spend time on each of them.

Tara Khandelwal  43:29

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's amazing. Thank you so much for letting me know more about the process of putting this book together your journey conservation and then pitha I mean, who doesn't love the world of animals wildlife who isn't fascinated by the beauty of nature. And reading these books just transports you and just makes you feel so much more connected as a human being. So thank you so much.

Anita Mani  43:54

Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you.