6.17 Shinie Antony: Meet Lilith - Adam's First Wife, Or Demon Who Devours Babies?

Before Adam and Eve, there was Adam and Lilith.
But who is Lilith and what happened to her?

In this episode, Michelle speaks with Shinie Antony, author of ‘Eden Abandoned’, which tells the story of Adam’s first wife and the first woman ever - Lilith.  When Lilith refused to submit to Adam, she got banished from Eden and erased from the scriptures. But what did she do next?

Michelle and Shinie discuss villainized women in mythology, how Lilith stood up for herself and got branded a “child-eating monster”, and why Shinie thinks an angry, articulate woman is a work of art!

Books and authors mentioned in this episode:

Lilith - Nikki Marmery
Names of the Women - Jeet Thayil
The Da Vinci Code - Dan Brown
The Covenant of Water - Abraham Verghese

Movies and TV shows mentioned in this episode:

Supernatural - Eric Kripke (Creator)
The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina - Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa (Creator)

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Chapters

• 0:00 Books & Beyond Intro
• 0:23 Introduction to Shinie Antony
• 53:43 Books & Beyond Outro

Transcript

Michelle D'costa  00:03

Hi, everyone. Welcome back. So we have covered a lot of retellings of stories, you know from mythology, folklore, religion, you know, you name it on this podcast before. Today, I'm super excited because I'm going to unpack a very interesting female figure from the Bible, which many people are not aware of. Right? Because most of us think that Adam and Eve were the first couple created ever right according to the Bible, but it turns out that Adam had another wife of first wife. Yes, you heard me right. So Eve is not the first woman to be created by God. So my guest today is SHINee Antony, whose latest book Eden abandon focuses on a very cool woman from the Bible. Her name is Lilith. So if you've heard of Lilith before, you know, you might know that, you know, she was created from the same dust from which Adam was actually created, right? And that's when you know, Adam demanded that she submit to him that she obey Him. And that's when she left Eden, right, or she was banished from it. There are different sides to the story. So now because of how Lilith stood up for herself, or you know, because of her refusal to submit to Adam, she has been wiped out from the scriptures. So we rarely get to hear about right now Chinese book explores how Lilith is replaced by a meek and obedient woman who's called Eve, whom we all have, you know, understood as the partner of Adam. Now in all of history, Lilith is branded as a demon or child murderer or night monster, you know, and so many more nasty labels have been given to her right. But more importantly, she's independent and unapologetic for who she is. And shinies book actually gives her the space that she deserves. So welcome. SHINee very excited about today.

Shinie Antony  01:53

Thank you, Michelle, and thank you for such a stunning summing up of who Lilith is, was, yes,

Michelle D'costa  02:01

yes. No, actually, you know, what's interesting? Chinesey I have been born and raised Catholic. Okay. But I did not hear of Lilith until a few years ago. Imagine, you know, which is why I think from the time I came to know about it, I have been reading widely and when I came upon your book, I was like, Okay, I have to read this. And I have to interview SHINee 

Michelle D'costa  00:01

So okay, so shiny, you know, so we have seen so many women in mythology who have been, you know, labeled as evil because of various things that they have done or even not done right. So let's say for example, in Greek mythology, you have the Helen of Sparta, right? Where she's a very powerful leader, very smart woman, but then she's blamed from the Trojan War, right? Then you have Medusa on the other hand, again, who is you know, come across as this very evil evil goddess over the years and then you know, let's say in Indian mythology, you know, like in the Ramayana, right, you have shoop, Anika, again, she is known as being new as she's known as its antagonists. So it's sort of this pattern that we have seen. So rivet is not the first woman. So I want to know, out of all of these women, you know, in mythology, what attracted you towards Lilith specifically? Why did you want to tell her story and why now?

Shinie Antony  01:04

Thanks, Michelle, for you know, all the stunning things that you said about Lilith. I agree wholeheartedly. I do feel that there are many women who have been relegated to the background or to being minor characters, from the epics, simply because all those stories were being written down by men being passed from one man, you know, the person who's recording is male, and it goes to another story and quote, unquote, according again, Emile so they both keep out even women have complete virtue and 100% You know, acceptance, social, socially accepted, acceptance from society and from all religions would still get betrayals in these retellings. You know, they were there, like we call the mini pixie girl over there just to let the male characters come in to their brilliant own, you know? Yeah, so the women who were not stereotypically work tourists who are not saintly, and mind you at that time being single itself was a sin. Even now, if you want to stay single is a sort of, you know, it's a sort of fight may be subtle, it may be huge, depending on your family background, but this thing single, is like swimming upstream, going against the flow. It was more so at that time, can you imagine a woman who has been made solely for a man as his helpmate, or his, you know, his other half? And she decides, I don't like my other half, I'm off. Goodbye. You know, what are the what words are they going to give her to justify herself? They can easily justify the man's sorrow. The man's, you know, being being totally lost at sea, with all his values of female goodness being, you know, slaughtered in that one minute. And also, shall who's gonna make his morning cup of tea? Exactly, yeah, that's

Michelle D'costa  03:13

all. That's all. No, I mean, it's true. You know, I mean, if if I think of it right, as you said, even in today's world, like, I'm in my 30s, and someone who's who I've, I've definitely seen the world change for women. I mean, things are definitely way better. But as you said, even now, it's a struggle, you have to justify every decision you make, right? So so there's this. There's this whole discourse on motherhood, and how you know, women today lets you know, they choose not to be mothers, but then you have to justify that why it's almost like if you're born a woman, you're supposed to be a mother. It's that

Shinie Antony  03:45

Michelle, you belong to the brave new world where childless has been replaced with child free. And I think that itself, when we change our language, to suit what's going on, I think that itself is a huge leap. You know, nobody is going to now look at women who do not have children and go, what? You know, that's not anymore.

Michelle D'costa  04:11

Yeah, no, I get it. I definitely feel that we are we are going in the right direction. You know, That. That? I mean, it's like, yes, we have yet leaps and bounds to move forward. Like you said, you know, that it is definitely you know, the terms might be there in the language, but I do feel that the mentality still has to go in that respect, you know, but yeah,

Shinie Antony  04:30

I just want to add here that I do feel people like Lilith coming back into you know, at least my life and you say just before she entered my life, she entered yours. And I think every woman's life. Lily does enter at some point, you know, and I do feel being single is a superpower. Not having children is a superpower. The and aging is another huge superpower. Because as you age and you discover these This whole freedom waiting for you, which is already within you, and you couldn't access it because you were listening and nodding, and, you know, trying to go with everything that everybody else is telling you, once you realize that, no, I have my own strength and might untied me and I'm gonna use that everybody else has just to adjust to you. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa  05:26

and I think I think with this respect, you know, yes, we do look at modern women, we do look at, you know, women who have achieved things that are sort of like, you know, you see that they have achieved this goal, so why can't I do it? So I think if you if you look at it that way Lilith even though she's this sort of historic figure, like you said, you know, she's she's been there since Jewish mythology. I think you're looking at her I'm very sure a lot of young girls can also be inspired to sort of, you know, just follow their voice. Right. And, and, in fact, seen Lilith being portrayed in so many different ways in in pop culture. You know, like, actually, there are several horror movies based on the left that says a TV show. Yes, the supernatural element discovered that she's, you know, this leader of the demons and there's chilling Adventures of Sabrina, where Lilith is Sabrina's mentor. And also we've seen a recent book in 2023, by Nicky Murray, who's which is a, which is a feminist retelling of it. So I want to know, see, when you were writing the book, really, what did you sort of want to bring out about Lilith? That hasn't been covered so far?

Shinie Antony  06:28

Hmm, that's an interesting question. Because you see, I did not read any modern fiction interpretation of because I wanted to write Lilith in my own way. And, to be fair to me, I would say, Lilith came to me as if, you know, on her own as if in a dream, and I just felt like a stenographer who was just taking down notes. It was like, he was telling me her story. And I was just typing it out. At no point did I feel that me as a storyteller interfered there. It was just like one of those. Really, I mean, it sounds mystical, but it was almost like automatic writing. And I wrote this in seven days. Though, all the all the editing the reworking, the unifying beauty coloring of the prose happened. Four months later, maybe a year after that, too. I bet my book was with the publishers before Nikki's book was out. My book was with publishers from 22, from the year 22. And, obviously, there's no way I would have known about her book or even, you know, had a chance to read it. But my research was, like you said, Eliot makes these cameo entrances into various other stories and to pick her from all those pieces of her. I bet from all these other things. When paintings there is a beautiful painting, which depicts her in her all her negative glory, sometimes, there is still some kind of power and glory. Because when men depict women as demoness, is it also means that they are scared of her, you know, and they're giving her that, quote, unquote, ugliness, just so that they can make peace with our will. Because if she's beautiful, she's a seductress. And she smacks on little babies. And these two things of being sexually voracious, and of eating little babies. These are two things which are common to many, many, the portrayal of many, many ministers across the universe.

Michelle D'costa  08:45

Yeah, no, that's very interesting, actually, the painting that you mentioned the artwork, because I noticed that the cover of your book either abandoned, it shows the length as it's really beautiful. You know, I mean, I would say ordinary woman, right, like, I will see beauty and in every woman, but what's interesting is in most of the artwork, she is depicted as a demon with having horns to her head and all of that. So I really liked that Where were you know, before starting out before reading the book, you know, what you're getting into, you know, that this is a different side of, really, of Lilith. And it's sort of like, her voice that hasn't been given, you know, and for obvious reasons, like like we discussed, right, because

Shinie Antony  09:20

she's supposed to have had light blue eyes, and golden hair. And in the taboo that you're talking about, I feel as the beautiful Baba, they could give a golden egg, but not the light blue eyes.

Michelle D'costa  09:34

Yes. Yes, definitely. Maybe maybe in some other edition. We could have, we could have that motion. So, you know, I think your book sort of really, really made me think about, you know, all the women that have been raised, you know, from the scriptures and we we do know that, you know, it's not just in scriptures. It's been in history. We've also covered that on the podcast where a lot of women in like, let's see rulers, lots of very powerful women leaders have just been by totally, totally now that you know people through the research they have uncovered your stories, you know, so if we talk of Christianity, it has happened and Gentiles book which, which is called names of the women that covers 15 women in the life of Christ. You know, we're barely mentioned in the Bible. Right? Yes. And your story focus on with it. So, you know, one of the reasons that we'll it is sort of absent, you know, in let's just talk about a bit about in Christianity, why she has been removed, because in the process of characterization, you know, where specific texts were selected, you know, for the official biblical canon, what if God was for this doesn't fit into the theological or doctrinal objectives of, you know, Christian leaders? So she was just wiped out? Right? I'm curious to know, did you always know this growing up as a Christian because I didn't, no one ever spoke about her in my family or friends circle? No one. So. And when you found out whenever you did, how did that sort of change your relationship with with Christianity?

Shinie Antony  10:56

Yeah, well, like you, I also discovered, or maybe a couple of years before I wrote about her, and then she kind of grew inside my head. Tilty took over my brain cells, and she was, like, talking so much about herself that I felt okay, you know, I have to just sit down and write a story. Because like you I did not come from a background where I'd heard of her while growing up. I heard of her having grown up, you know, and I do feel that certain characters or certain stories come into our lives when we need them. And they kind of make this ugly making the wait word does and we don't see them. They'll be neat to see them. And I feel I have always written about aging women, like they just said, aging is a superpower. You know, I've discovered that personally. And I've discovered through my stories, which I've been fighting for the last 20 years. And yeah, when I came to Lilith, I just felt, of course, the Christian part that you're telling me, like I said, she's actually pre Christian, but is there in Genesis one? The Christian part of it is that I feel, especially in a land like India, Christians are a minority, we hardly talk about anything, we are actually pretty invisible. You know, because we don't have dramatic views on most things. They're like this quiet community, who is just existing, and people know, we are a minority, but people don't have anything to say to us. We don't have much to say to them. And Lilith is kind of a middle aged woman at least is approaching middle age. When she's leaving, Adam, and I feel middle aged women. Again, I didn't single all over the world, you know, so there are these two in disabilities in her that I kind of got very interested in. And I felt this high time that someone here looked into, like you said about Jeet that was very timely, very beautiful, what he's written. So I just wanted to look into Christian mythology, which is almost Christian because it also has such a beautiful theme of liberation, female liberation.

Michelle D'costa  13:31

Right, ya know, and as you said, yeah, it is it is definitely that I think there are certain characters who are, you know, always covered more than the other side, there always is underappreciated characters. It's usually the glamorous ones and the most popular ones who, who sort of it's ironical, right? Because why would you want to tell stories about the character who has been covered again, and again, when it comes

Shinie Antony  13:51

to the Bible, there are the two marries and they occupy like such opposite purchase, that we are the saint and the sinner. And we are so happy and a sinner who almost becomes a saint, and actually talking about to saying that we are in safe category, you know, we hadn't safe area, we can talk as much as we want about them, because we've already been written about so much. And I do feel that Lilith story is about resurrection. You know, because women do resurrect all the time. Life leaves them for dead and each time they are like, I'm your I'm still here, you know, there's female feticide, infanticide, honor killing dowry, deaths, widows being abandoned. So the planet, according to me, it's not divided into men and women. It's actually divided into the powerful and powerless predator and prey. And that is where if we do not come in, at this point and change the narrative, and change the story, I think they might just be become extinct.

Michelle D'costa  14:55

Yeah, no, totally. I think it's a very, very interesting way of putting it read predator and prey. And I do when I do feel that yes, I think for you know, talking about the two Mary's obviously, we know one is Mother Mary, who's Jesus's mother. And the other one was Mary Magdalene who and this is something which is, which really stood out to me as a reader in school, you know, where when Dan Brown's book DaVinci Code, sort of it became really popular back then just like, just like the Harry Potter series. And I actually remember back then being this being this very obedient, Catholic child, I was like, no, no, I'm not going to read the book because it

Shinie Antony  15:31

shows the church band. It

Michelle D'costa  15:33

did. Yes, it did. Yeah, that's why and it was, it felt like a sin, right? It's like, okay, everyone around me is reading it. And they said, Oh, Michelle, you should read it, because it's like, wonderful writing stories or the idea. But it's tough for me to sort of distance fiction from from, you know, sort of the way I've been thinking about religion. It's only now that I sort of, you know, I laugh at it. And I wonder, Oh, why didn't I read it? Actually, I still haven't read it. I should. But now that I've had read your book, I think I'm more than in any sort of a mindset to read that. But what is interesting is, you know, shiny CBT, we speak about the two Mary's right. But now I want to sort of explore these two women who are Eve and limits, right? Because Eve has been given so much sort of coverage in our literature and story. So I want to see from your research or whatever you've heard about the two women, what according to you, sets them apart from each other, apart from you know, the very obvious reason that Lilith is rebellious, and II was very submissive and meek, what, according to you, sort of, I would say contrast both of them and the kind of stories that we've heard about Eve. Is that what you, you know, sort of look at Eve as, or is it a different view?

Shinie Antony  16:41

No, I do think that he was more sober. She called them the Romeo I've called her and Adam and my book, The Romeo and Juliet of the Abrahamic world, she is very much into her role. And she's like, I'm gonna get this, right, because she's got to set up 10 nations, she's going to populate the earth. And that's a huge job that a huge portfolio, and she's taken that seriously. So she was not a rebel. She was a doer, you know, she was full of action, she's going to, you know, harvest the plants, she's going to invent recipes, she's going to make Adam's life better and easier. And she's going to have all these children, and she's going to populate the basically that was her portfolio. But Lily did not want a portfolio. She did not want. She was also given the same portfolio, mind you. He also knew intuitively that these are the things that God expected from her, and God always made her feel like every child, his favorite child. But at the same time, she felt what if I take this away? Do I still not get my inches of real estate? Or do I still not a place to call my own is this earth, not mine? If I don't do what I've been told to do, if I don't obey, as an artist, I mean, even if even if you're not an artist, we are always, I think, tempted to look beyond what is expected of us. Because that's the only way we can discover ourselves, you know, how small children they are so happy when you smile at them, they smile back. And suddenly they are like, full of questions. What is this? No, what is this? What is that? And we are sometimes we are so fed up and and we do wonder why we are children in the first place when that happens. But but that is how she was she was curious about everything. She didn't want to take anything for granted, just because she's been told, this is how it is. This is your role. You know, you have a uterus and you have a vagina, and you have these XX chromosomes and therefore, we are expecting this from you. And she was like, no, let me see what's beyond that, you know, because she instinctively understood that Adam was a boss, Adam was the CEO. And she was a secretary. And she thought, well, what if? What if the roles are reversed? And thank God for thinking that way? Because Because that's when when people rebel like that, or people think what could be the other path? You know, and that's, that's the only time when they create drama, which is more like a fish wife. She's hysterical. She is all in or all out. He is not one of those same people like Eve who will be who listened to everything will try to make peace who's addicted to he's actually a lot of them and then the younger get addicted to peace. You know, they just want to keep I don't want any confrontations. They just want to keep peace all the time. She was just not. She was just not like that. And thank God for that.

Michelle D'costa  19:58

Yeah, no, I think it's really enjoyed I see the way you put it like the portfolio given to them or sort of the CEO I love these terms because at the end of the day it is a power dynamic

Shinie Antony  20:06

between it is a power dynamic never forget. Yes. Yes. I

Michelle D'costa  20:10

mean it is it's very, of course, you know, like, like, everything is romanticized. There is a there's obviously a romantic way to say that there are a couple the first evoke couple partners and all of that, but we do know, you know, who are we kidding? There is a lot of there's a power dynamic there. And yes, it was very evident that Adam wanted to do he wanted to be be the one you know, sort of taking the shot, calling the shots. Sorry. And and

Shinie Antony  20:31

imagine a woman who, who is now considered the patron, demon as offsets, sudden infant death syndrome, because she's, that is why the word lullaby comes, you know, from people saying when they putting babies to sleep, they say, kill it, goodbye, meaning. The lullaby which means, go away, and leave my baby alone, leave my Baby Alive, leave my baby safe. So that's why the word lullaby comes in. So yeah, yeah. And she's proud of that. That's, that's her job. You know,

Michelle D'costa  21:04

ya know, and this, this really makes me think about how you know, sort of folklore or stories like even even when, in a lot of Indian folklore, you see witches, or or, you know, these let's see, like, they see women who die and early death, let's say this, that's, you know, someone who's had an unfulfilled desire, someone who's not, were not able to marry on time, didn't find their love, and all of that day will come after you and they will sort of, you know, it's sort of like these unfulfilled desires come in the form of this, you know, them being a demon and sort of ruining the peace and love and carefully made life of a family,

Shinie Antony  21:41

the family. Exactly, no sacrosanct, and nothing can, you know, big. I also feel that a lot of Romance Writers, also women, Romance Writers, feed into this whole thing about, you know, all our life, being about this eternal search for a twin flame or a soulmate or someone that we are going to fall eternally in love it. And all the therapy sessions that we have, we know that's not true. We know that every relationship is work. And sometimes it's more work. If you have a vagina, we know that, you know, it's more work because we are supposed to be full of empathy. We are supposed to be many things. And we have to put in more effort. But yeah, so Lilith was just not buying into that.

Michelle D'costa  22:31

Yes, no, and I'm really glad that she didn't, because otherwise we would, you know, as women, we wouldn't have another alternate, you know, role model or don't, don't not, that's not role model. But an alternate story of, of, let's say, there are women like this as well, right, because we're often told to follow a certain mold, mold, you know,

Shinie Antony  22:48

and Lilith actually breaks the mold. Also, when she says when she celebrates, a tonic friendships. And she has she says that perhaps what women are waiting for? Is not that special, someone. hetero women, they're not waiting for that special someone from the opposite sex. They're actually waiting to meet their sister. Yeah, a true friend, who understand who's gone through all the gender politics, who's also reached that stage because she had to fight back. So it's like an A soldier meeting another soldier on the battle front. So that the way she talks about her female friendships, I thought that was very, very interesting, because an Adam is completely blotted out of her mind forever.

Michelle D'costa  23:39

Yeah, it's like, you know, yes, her story starts from that correct. But that's not the only side. But that's what I loved, actually, that she had different layers that for her, there were different consultants. Yes, she she sort of feels left out, like who wouldn't feel left out if you're suddenly vanished, you know, from from, let's say, a place that you thought you could call home. Right? So all those feelings are there. But at the same time, as you said, there are she looks at things differently. And I think that's, that's something that that young girls can sort of, you know, look up to and, and, you know, I've noticed that see, let's talk about now the tone or the style of the writing, okay, I was really drawn to your book because of its lyrical, lyrical quality, right? And NPHC there are two kinds of writers one is let's say, you know, writers like KR Mira, who intentionally pick controversial topics, right? And they also She also writes in a very matter of fact, manner where she addresses that, you know, nail like a nail on the head, right? And on the other hand, we

Shinie Antony  24:34

have a big fan of writing. Yeah, she

Michelle D'costa  24:37

is she's awesome, right? There's a reason why people really love her work because I also love it because of you know, how feminist it is of how and how direct it is. Right? Those Yeah, on the other hand, what I found interesting is like, like your style, you've also written actually a lot about women do a lot of women protagonists in your previous book, so in, in this and in your previous or the book, your prose is very lyrical. So I want to know, how did this sort of style come about? Is it intentional? Did you Did you ever sort of think of addressing it in in a very contemporary direct manner? Or how to discern counterpart?

Shinie Antony  25:12

Okay, I think what you're talking about is the breaking of the fourth wall. Meaning like, I continuously talk to the reader. It's

Michelle D'costa  25:19

also an also a very poetic prose, I feel the language also sort of took me back in time, and sort of made me feel like I'm in this different world that you've that you've created. Yeah.

Shinie Antony  25:32

Yeah, thank you, Michelle, that's like music to my ears. And it's yours. I do feel that male anger has always been celebrated. You know, it's called Metro, it's called protective. And it is supposed to be inevitable, it's supposed to be natural, to the, to the order of things that men, if things don't go their way, they will get angry, and they will fight or they will yell, they will make a scene. But women who lose their temper are not as attractive as that I mean, we are not. So there is a way that we are supposed to laugh like silently into our hands, we are not even supposed to make a noise while laughing. We are not supposed to take center stage. You know, for the longest time, women in even now in some parts of the world, they eat food from the plate left behind by the husband admin for because it is supposed to be apparently food management app, you know, you don't want to go to waste. And he drinks tea left behind by the husband. What is interesting, if it is food management, why is it only Monday? It's never the other way. You know? So I did think that in my books, the girl who couldn't love and this particular book Lilith, I felt here for two angry women.and I do think an angry, articulate woman is a work of art. Oh,

Michelle D'costa  27:24

I love the way you put that. Yeah, totally. And in fact, like, because, you know, when I read, I sort of always tried to understand why the writer must have used a certain technique. And definitely, for me, that lyrical prose was very calculated, right? And I really wanted to know why, like, there's definitely a reason and as you said, it's because she's so articulate, it's because she can gather her thoughts, put it in the form of, you know, these beautiful sentences, it sort of, you know, you know, that her personality is formed, you know, that it's not something that she's sort of just reacting to the moment, right, as you said, where,

Shinie Antony  27:54

you know, there are two, there are two points in the story, where she is speechless, and where she is not poetic, that is when she loses 100 sons. And when Samuel is castrated by God, I think these are two points in time they her throat goes dry, and she talked around in circles, she is not able to come to terms with a feeling that she's not able to express herself in language. And as a writer, I did not want to interfere there. I felt there were moments where she felt so good about life and this whole anger. You know, when when you're sad when when some depressed and that depression gets converted into anger. It's like money in the bank, you know, and suddenly, she is so intoxicated by all right. I'm a bad woman. I'm as bad as a woman in debt. So what are you gonna do about that? So I think that was intoxicating for her. And her language kind of had to reflect that. You know, she's she sheds white flowers because they virginal and she goes in for red flowers because she feels they're more suited for her new new character. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa  29:05

and the tone as you said, it's almost like, you know, when I read it, I felt like, oh, I have nothing more to lose. It's sort of that that stage that you're at, where you're like, hey, now, you know, you've just you've already ruined my image. You ruined me now there's nothing else and God.

Shinie Antony  29:21

God forsaken so so that's it. I mean, she's like,

Michelle D'costa  29:24

there's nothing else left to displease muster now, yeah, it's really sad actually. I mean, if you think about it, I can't even imagine sort of like the kind of burden or the kind of you know, just just the thoughts in our head because you know, as as women who have been we've seen so many role models or that you you always have examples to look forward to but who does she look? Who does she look at right she's the one she's the only one who sort of sets it and so what is interesting especially I really liked that your your career trajectory is sort of you know, a mix of writing right like while this is lyrical prose, you have been a journalist and the two will Economic Times financial To express all of that, you know, so could you tell us a bit about that transition? How did you move from being a journalist writing very fact, you know, based writing, you know, to cut to the point to fiction because you have written a lot of goods.

Shinie Antony  30:13

So in economic times and Financial Express, I was on the desk. I was in the news and headlines, you know, giving times gave me i, because we have to be a little bit innovative and tongue in cheek and playful. And I realized that as it is like, I'm a big fan of alliteration, And what I really gained in these papers, is just cutting matter of factly. You know, such mundane, prosaic news, cutting them to size, and I think that kind of trained my train me, you know, Gould Mirada in that whole thing of let's not get verbose. Let's not add an extra word we can take, take a word out, you know, and I do feel stories come with their own word counts. So when I started, then I moved into fiction very slowly, with really short, short stories, that counting the words was very important to me. And I do think poetry is the closest that a literary form comes to maps. Because every word count, every word matters. And that's when I started to write short stories, or even now, like the novellas, or the novels that I've been writing. I think that that gives me a high to count my words, I cannot fritter it away language, every, every word there has to have a reason. Which is why though I have editors who have told me, can you lengthen it? I, it's very soul crushing for me, because I'm like, you know, I've deliberately kept it like that. And I want readers to meet me halfway, to come in with their own stories to come in with their own understanding. Because the reader is so weird about you, intellectually. You know, there's no way I can take a reader for granted.

Michelle D'costa  32:42

Yeah, totally. And I think this is the size of the book is is definitely one thing why I loved it. And and it's, you know, it's so easy to carry around. So I think I read it on the metro, I read it in the local train, I read it at home, the different places because it's really easy to carry. You see, there are some books, which require a lot of words, right. So I think One Book, One recent book that I read was the covenant of water by Raphael. It's a tome of a book, but it is I mean, you know that every word counts, right? There are certain books like that. But again, now, as you said, there are books like yours, where you know that what you've had to say is, you've said it, right. So imagine if you just sort of drag it and you know, I mean, we've already got the point. Why, why does simply drag and another interesting thing I noticed was that you started with the last chapter and then moved on to the first so how did how did that come about? Was it like your editors, editors viewpoint.

Shinie Antony  33:37

It was my own. So I started the chapter 13 Because I felt like she's already gone through everything she has to go through. And he's talking about shame. She's talking about guilt, she's talking about how something so beautiful as innocence can be taken away from you in a jiffy. And then your whole past is turned into a lie or turned into nothing like you everything is of no consequence what you've done so far. We need her in a close up in a very tight close up at the at this latter half of her life. And then I go back to you know, trace her life. How she met Adam, and you know how she was born and how she saw Eve and how she how she imitated Eve and how she stole from E and how she created everything all the mayhem actually did create because there is a version of the story where it says Eve saris Lilith was the serpent there of course, many many popular versions of he is not the serpent but I chose to go with that because it suited me and I felt even if she really was not the serpent then she badly wanted to be the she could. She could audition for that room.

Michelle D'costa  34:54

No, no, absolutely. Yeah, I think I think that's a very interesting twist. And for me, I think Oh, By now, I think I'm sick and tired of books which start out in this very, you know, linear fashion or very common way, you know, A to B to C, where a is the childhood B is the, the middle sort of mid crisis. Yeah. And then or towards the end, right? Because, I mean, I think it's just, it's just a very ordinary way of telling a story. Of course, you can do it well, if you if you, you know, sort of approach to different lighting. One book that comes to mind is JD Salinger is, you know, a Catcher in the Rye, where in the first chapter, he says, Hey, don't expect me to tell you about my childhood. I'm not gonna do that, which is very, very interesting. So I think I think definitely the your sort of decision to start the book of where you know, where already her voice is fully formed, is something that I really liked. And,

Shinie Antony  35:46

and yeah, I feel if I had started from the time that she was born, and she was not looking back, she will not be this wise. You know, she she would be like, you know, wide eyed and wondrous about everything. I did not want that I wanted her to have that wise, philosophical, you know, I've done this shit. I'm telling you this. You know, that kind of a tone? Yeah,

Michelle D'costa  36:10

no, totally. Because I think we all we have our Jodi's right, like, as you said, it will help earlier, she would have been naive, she would have been innocent. And then over time when things happen to us, she sort of changes. Yeah, that is true. And you know, I really want to know, SHINee, what has been the reaction for this book? And I don't just mean, readers, but I mean, more like, you know, family, friends, is it is it like anyone has sort of said, Okay, but why Lillith? Why not try to put in? Or really, have you ever had such reactions?

Shinie Antony  36:39

I have actually written about them. Michelle, I have invented a segment, which is my first book of short stories, I have a story called Mary. Okay. Then in Bucha, which was an anthology I compiled for Penguin, about two, three years back, or maybe 2017, or 18. I don't remember the year. There is a short story I've written about Eve, I've called it the first ghost tests, because she dies and she's a ghost. And she's like, she feels she's the first female ghost in the world. So what she feels about that, so I have written in a minor way about them. But it's, it's only when I met Lilith, and Lilith stays at some point, you know, that we all as human beings, we try to focus on the good, the positive, and the right thing, we always want to do the right thing. But deep in our hearts, we actually come to life, when we are sinning, when we're doing something that we're told not to do. So I think a character like this felt very, very tempting to me. So though I gave Mother Mary and eat short stories, that really short, short stories. I knew with Lilith, she would not be contained within like a few words. She she would take as much as she can. out of me. Right.

Michelle D'costa  37:57

That's interesting. So I think I think you've covered the different different facets or different kinds of, of women. And I'm really glad that you haven't sort of, you know, like, like the say, you haven't sort of encountered that, that. That kind of backlash, because I think nowadays, people are just so sensitive about anything, no matter what you you know, what you cover, forget about religious religious figures, I think no matter what you write about, it tends to hit this nerve. But I'm glad that

Shinie Antony  38:24

that hasn't. But I feel Christians have by and large, prove that they're more tolerant, and they're very thinking, they come to all of this in a very thinking way. And what was working in my favor was at Lille, it's not a Christian figure. You know, so I really didn't feel that I would ruffle any feathers. Because there is a lady who goes back before he and yesterday started with Eve, so you pretty much and leave it alone.

Michelle D'costa  38:54

That is That is true. I think I think we are definitely playing on safe ground. So I want to know,

Shinie Antony  39:00

because there's a forefather. And there's a poor mother. She's neither. She's just this woman. You know, she she has not given birth to these.

Michelle D'costa  39:09

So what is she? Yeah, this

Shinie Antony  39:11

you want to stand up for her? No one. Right,

Michelle D'costa  39:16

right. Yeah, there is. It's very interesting. If you think about it, like who like it sort of like, which, you know, which characters or which figures from history could actually ruffle feathers. Right and why? Yeah, that's, that's an interesting book. What was it publishing, like with cash, actually, how did that come across? And how did you sort of, you know, pitch the idea would after a workout.

Shinie Antony  39:41

So I already had a book coming out from my usual publisher, to whom I usually go, and that book had been delayed because of his COVID. And so I just felt like, okay, they're struggling with having to bring out one book. I didn't want to go back to them. So I was looking for a good safe place for little Let's be let's voice will not be old down. And I have to tell you, Thomas Abraham Hachette, and then I'll be at this thing have been such a godsend to me, you know, to go take your story to take the character to a publisher who and an editor who actually understand everything and will have that empathy in their heart to stand for your character because he you created the character. So, to a certain extent, obviously, I can take criticism, and I can better it I can do to meet with that wholehearted love. I would say love, you know, and, you know, ever since my dad passed away, this is like a sign, you know, I, I do record in my mind, the moments where I feel he is reaching out to me, for some reason, you know, I just feel like his presence in my life. And things go much better than I can ever imagine. And this was really an emotional moment for me lacing it with her shirt because they really caught Lilith. I mean, we were piecing really got Lilith, and at no point did she tell me this is wrong? Or this is bad? How can you rewrite she was just so supportive. She kept like, even still, even in her third edit, she would be like, this is such a lovely story. So I felt like she was so supportive, or the whole way.

Michelle D'costa  41:30

So that's, that's really lovely to your shiny. Right, I can, you know, obviously, I can't relate in a way where I've had, you know, so many novels out, but my first novel is coming out this year. And, and Brad's Thank you, thank you. It's coming out from baseline and the kind of warmth that I had seen from my editor, my editor, Sanghamitra Biswas and you know, sometimes you know that they get the story. Like you said, it's, it's, I wouldn't say it's easy. It's definitely not easy to get published or to or to find an editor, right. But let's say you find one and to only realize that, oh, they don't get the story. They just, you know, there's there's no heartbreak

Shinie Antony  42:05

taking enough kind of fighting the whole way. Because, you know, they disapprove. And then you, you know, they're scowling. If you just keep saying no, but I feel like there's one, I feel like there's my character one too, because I can't prolong this. So it becomes like a fight. And in no fight, because sometimes you not, especially if it's your first book, etc, you nod to whatever feedback is given to you, and you try to step up. But sometimes, you know, in your heart, you don't agree. And I'll tell you some true editors are never always right. Because I am an editor, and I'm never always right. I've been wrong so many times. And I'm very happy when the right time editing directs me and says, but that's not what I meant. And I'm like, okay, that's fine. You know, I do feel editing has to come without any ego to be in the editing period. You can't like say, This is my view, you can say that. It is the writer, it's all about the writer. I remember originally a short story called The rent about a woman who, who, who has been trying to have a baby, and it kind of puts a lot of strain on her marriage. And finally, the husband and wife, they decided to part ways. And after the decide to pathways, you've walked out of the house, and she realizes she's expecting and then she's a PG in some place. And she decides to you know, have an abortion so that she can occupy her new life. And I remember the first editor who went through the she said, I liked all the other stories, but I don't get the rent, you know? And immediately I said, just cut that story out. It's alright. Because she said, Can you repeat the ending? Because what is this whole thing? The rent, and it doesn't make sense to me. And I hadn't helped it out. The President is going to talk to I have future. I said, yeah, just cut it out. All right, because I can't rewrite the ending. It just so happens that Kashmir menlyn, she's with HarperCollins. Now, at that time, she was with Rupa and she, that other editor left and Rashmi took over my project. And she so many months later, she called me up and she said, you know, we are bringing out your book and I'm I'm doing the final round of editing. And there are this many stories. I said, No, no, you're wrong because one story had been removed. So it's actually one story less she said no. With stories being removed. I said the rent, and she said but that's such a such a beautiful story. I love it. Oh, yeah. And I said, Did you get it? This is the sort of pause and simply told story. So I do feel that yes, different stories. Different editors will like them. It's all very subjective. So if somebody doesn't like some reader doesn't like your story or somebody doesn't like it. That's not the end of the world. But feels like it, you know? But I think every story Paul's every story is waiting to We've fallen in love with either, right?

Michelle D'costa  45:02

Yeah. Yeah. too. And and yeah, that's, that's very true. I'm really glad you brought that up because he where I speak to a lot of writers, new writers as well, you know, a lot of them tell me that, you know, they're really like desperate looking forward to that first deal, right like, and I totally understand what it means to get a break, right? It's very difficult but, but oftentimes nobody tells you about this special aspect that you have. So you might have a publisher backing you right? Let's say it's a traditional publisher, but it's the editor who's editing your work. It's that person who will vouch for your work, right? Because not all editors might look at your work in the same way. So yeah,

Shinie Antony  45:39

definitely. And I think that, just like you trick the reader with the, with the fake honesty, you know, obviously, it's a story. It's fiction. It's not true, admittedly. But you give it all the authenticity and all the authentic air, I feel, editors can also be tricked. Like that. You have to take on board every criticism they say, and only fight the battles that you really need to my policy, that's my strategy, I let go of a lot of things I recommend but of my books, in the girl Coding Club theory to change the word startled to surprise you know, and I even today, I feel startle, suits that sentence better. It gives it poetry gives it some kind of mythical rhythm something. And surprise, it was kind of flattened what she felt what my character felt. And, yeah, so that kind of thing just rankles, even after years, because you so strongly felt something, but then I didn't fight it. Because, you know, it's just the word. And I fought some other things.

Michelle D'costa  46:50

Totally, you know, I think I think this whole equation, you know, between editor and publisher is very interesting. And I definitely, I want to know, because we are, you know, covering editing, you have been, you know, known as the editor of chicken burger. So I want to know, is that something that has has is that has that label stayed or, you know, do people still know you as Jason buckets editor, Adobe? No, it's in the past the what has that been,

Shinie Antony  47:14

but I'm still as editor. I've edited even this latest book, also, the thing that Jason is that he came into my life and I was a writer, yes. But I was a writer and editor, I was editing more. And even today as a, as an editor, I enjoy my work. I love editing, I love reading other people's work, I love to see how it can be, you know better how is already so good that I don't need to interfere. It's like we're slipping on somebody else's pair of shoes and walking in that walking in them. But your own writing, you have to pull it out of thin air. It's like you're a magician. And sometimes, you know, no rabbit is coming out of that hat. And you're like, Oh, my God, what do I do? So that fear and insecurity is no longer there? Because the creation is not yours. You know? So you as an editor, I feel I'm always in the driver's seat. You know, but as a writer, I don't feel that I feel, Am I doing the right thing? And there's no, you're just second guessing yourself. You can't keep doing a B line B chapter to someone. You know. So being Jason brothers editor has actually been a very good fit for both Jason and me. Because we have never had an argument about anything. You know, if I suggest something to him, he will take it on board. You'll think about it, and he'll come back to me if he doesn't agree with me. So there's absolutely no hassle. We have a very, very smooth relationship. Also, Michelle have edited other writers too. Yeah. I have been a fiction editor. So it's not just

Michelle D'costa  48:53

that's what that's what I wanted to address that you know, sometimes, let's say you don't even a writer, right? You have a body of work. You've written so many. Yeah. And then you get known for that one book. I think it was the author of Clockwork Orange, I think Anthony Burgess, where he says, Hey, but I've written more books. Why are you why are you after this book, which which is wildland, which is, you know, all of that anyway, so I see

Shinie Antony  49:15

it, but I see a reader not as not so much as a writer. Because I have met writers and I have seen the face Paul, and I say, Oh my God, my whole family loves this book. And, and they're like, okay, but my latest book is, you know, and I feel I can see it and I and there's one right I don't want to mention any names. Who actually told me I wish I hadn't written that book. You know, I was too young to open to Frank. I wish I hadn't write it now. I would write it differently. But she is still remembered. Or Everybody knows her for that first one. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa  49:49

totally. That's what so which is why I said you know, I used to note by that label, but as as you you know, let's say you're clearing the record you have edited when you will books

Shinie Antony  49:59

again. So I have I have I,

Michelle D'costa  50:01

it's really it's really interesting, you know, Chinese so I think I think this, you know, brings us to the last round of the interview, which is called the rapid fire round. Where you have to answer in one word, or one sentence. Okay. Okay. One trait of Lilith, you wish you could borrow?

Shinie Antony  50:26

I think, way of expressing herself or language skills.

Michelle D'costa  50:29

Okay, nice. Okay, one thing that Eve and Lilith have in common besides Adam.

Shinie Antony  50:39

What do they have in common? They have an immense capacity to love.

Michelle D'costa  50:46

Right in their own ways, in their own merits. Yeah. Okay, if you could meet Lilith, what would you tell him?

Shinie Antony  50:53

I think I would be speechless, Michelle because I, I feel every word in this book has come straight from her. I really, really feel like I was this medium or like, you know, this, just like I said, I was just as an hour typist. So if I meet her, I think I would want to hug her. I would want to write feel she's real in some way. Just a voice, just a voice in my head. But someone I can actually someone who's cheek, I can actually kiss.

Michelle D'costa  51:22

Oh, wow. Yeah. And I hope I hope that comes through. Okay, so one common misconception that people have about Lilith that you have busted through your book.

Shinie Antony  51:34

I think that all the stories about her losing her babies, it actually makes her look like she was wreaking revenge on everybody else. Because she's, like I said, also the patron deepness of sense of have babies who just die suddenly. But in this, I have said that she actually when she does this to others, it's because she wants to free that woman. She wants to free a woman of my mothering of motherhood, because that takes away such a lot of time and energy. And she's left with nothing else to do. She is just reduced to her biology. And she is kind of thankful all those kids were taken away from her. That's how she discovered herself, her own freedom. She has the time and energy to do what she wants to do. And I think that's the gift she's giving women. And I think that has not been mentioned anywhere before.

Michelle D'costa  52:31

Yeah, it's not looked at as a gift. Which you have. Yeah, it's, it's,

Shinie Antony  52:36

yeah. Because it's supposed to be rebend. It's supposed to be hurting, malicious and nasty and just taking up the the baby directly. She's got this huge playground, you know, in in, in the spiritual world. And what I've said is there are swings and seesaws and a sea of breast milk.

Michelle D'costa  52:56

Yeah, lovely. Okay. If you had to write a book on another female character from the Bible, who would it be?

Shinie Antony  53:06

I think you know, the Immaculate Conception is supposed to give birth nearly right? It's not the Oh, interesting. Yeah. Mary. So I would like to go into that. Oh, mom, her aren't, you know, women who were actually past childbearing age, and then they have a baby. And you know, that there are a whole lot of these old aren't seven year old women who are older than the Bible, obviously, because they were much before. Price time. So yeah, something like that. And also Christ is supposed to have had siblings. Yes. And we have to call them step siblings, because there's somebody else and if other somebody if others bills. Yes.

Michelle D'costa  53:57

That's a very interesting dynamic that actually people don't often talk about. Yeah, because I mean, I'll for obvious reasons, but I would really love to read that book. Right, please. Right. Thanks. So my last question is, what's next? Are you working on another book, any book coming out?

Shinie Antony  54:14

So I've got this dubious habit of bringing out two books simultaneously. So I have two and there was Lilith and was on book came out together, and was written pre COVID came out now along with Lilith. I have two anthologies coming out sometime middle of this year. So those are my two new books. But I'm also I don't know I'm also looking into all the elements that you're talking about to look at Tristan ecology a little more seriously. Because in the course of researching for Lilith, I did come across so many unique stories, you know that I do feel drawn to them, so maybe when I have time to put my thought together, some other characters might pop up. Yes,

Michelle D'costa  55:03

yes. And definitely, I mean, you will have readers for that as well. Because I hope so. Yeah, I know. And it's just wonderful to see how prolific you've been shining. And you know, being an editor, being a writer, you put on so many hats that I think today was one of the most enjoyable conversations I've had on the podcast, especially and you know, why? Because I, you know, I don't know much about Lilith and I think through reading your book, it has sort of given me new insights into Christianity to Lilith in general, and just generally women figures who have been, you know, removed from history. So thank you so much. I've had a lot of fun.

Shinie Antony  55:38

Thank you, Michelle, and all the best with your book. I'm so happy.

Michelle D'costa  55:42

Thank you so much.