Books and Beyond with Bound
Welcome to India’s No. 1 book podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover the stories behind some of the best-written books of our time. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, and insecurities to publishing journeys. And how these books shape our lives and worldview today.
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Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Get in touch with us at connect@boundindia.com.
Books and Beyond with Bound
6.15 Ankur Warikoo: His Take On Marketing, Money, And Writing Books
What does one of India's top entrepreneurs have to say about writing, making money, and marketing books?
In this episode, Tara and Michelle speak with Ankur Warikoo, bestselling author of 'Make Epic Money', a book that teaches you everything you wish you knew about money!
Ankur talks about how his relationship with money changed, gaining financial freedom, and writing a book for youngsters to learn everything about money that nobody tells them. He also talks about how he started writing, his biggest tip for writers, and the three marketing strategies he used to create a bestselling book!
Bonus: Ankur also answers crowdsourced questions about managing money and tips for young writers and entrepreneurs!
Tune in!
Books and authors mentioned in this episode:
The Fountainhead - Ayn Rand
Rework - David Heinemeier Hansson and Jason Fried
Atmamun - Kapil Gupta
Atomic Habits - James Clear
The Psychology of Money - Morgan Housel
‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.
Michelle D'costa 00:00
Hi, everyone. Welcome back, we are super thrilled to speak to the uncle verrico, who needs no introduction. So his latest book make epic money is a guidebook for Indians in their 20s and 30s. And what I like is that he has busted myths, like, what are assets? What are liabilities? You know, how does one invest what you can do with your money. And we have even included a very special crowdsource section in this interview, because a lot of our followers had questions for him. Yeah, and
Tara Khandelwal 00:38
the book is currently a best seller on Amazon, just two months after, after it's released. And I think when Michelle and I were discussing this book, we just discussed how we wish we were taught financial literacy as a subject of school, because no one teaches you that, and there's so much jargon, and it just feels so confusing. And what this book does really, really well is simplifies all of it. And it asks such simple questions, question that you might feel kind of maybe too stupid to ask someone else like how do you sort of started de Matic? Or how do you even start your first investment. So we are very, very, very excited to welcome Angkor Wat to today.
Ankur Warikoo 01:18
Thank you so much. Thank you so much data. Thank you so much, Michelle, it's a pleasure to be here. And I am super glad to be having this conversation.
Michelle D'costa 01:27
Yeah, I mean, I'm really excited uncle. See, the reason is because, you know, I think money is something we don't often speak about, like it is for me from a very young age. This is something that I noticed growing up, right. So my parents sort of started from scratch, when they were migrants in the Gulf. And I remember that, you know, even if there were quarrels, it was usually about money, you know, anything, any kind of, you know, certain conversations, it's always about money, you know, and I was taught to save from a very young age, but I had a piggy bank. And I still remember that day when sort of I sort of, you know, as a kid, you don't understand the concept of saving. So a lot of times, I was tempted to break the piggy bank to get things like candy, chocolates, all of that. But one day, I sort of realized what I understood the value. When I broke the bank to get something bigger. I think it was a bigger doll. I don't really remember. But that's when I realized, oh, you know, saving up for something. And as you mentioned in your book, it's, you know, saving up for goals, rather than just saving up. You know, having that goal in mind. I think I felt this huge accomplishment. But yeah, and I think I think overall, you know, our approach, you know, towards the topic of finance, but anything is sort of, you know, the first reaction is fear. Because you're not given enough, enough exposure to Yeah,
Ankur Warikoo 02:39
yeah, you saw, right, you absolutely saw, right.
Tara Khandelwal 02:43
And I think for me, my background is I come from a business family. So I've grown up, and I'm also an entrepreneur. So I've grown up sort of hearing these things sort of at dinnertime conversation. But I always had sort of like a creative side as well. So I've tried to, you know, I've tried to put my creative side and business side together. And because of my background, I think that, you know, I was kind of forced into investing or thinking about this quite early on. And the book sort of validated a lot of the things that I've sort of grown up hearing and maybe kind of disregarded as well, because if it's coming from you know, somebody so close to you, you kind of ignore it. But I think this book really has changed both Michelle and my perspective a lot.
Ankur Warikoo 03:29
Thank you really appreciate that.
Michelle D'costa 03:34
Yeah, and you know, I think, like one of my biggest takeaways from the book, definitely a no has a lot to take in, I have highlighted most of the book, you have to sort of go back and go back and look at it. And what I really like is the format, it's not written like an ordinary book, where you have a line starting from the first to the end, it's super easy on the eyes. And for someone like me, who reads a lot, I'm telling you, it was a blessing. It was really easy to read, you'll
Ankur Warikoo 03:58
be you'll be one of the very few dedicated readers, Michelle, who would say this, because it's very disconcerting for an active reader to be reading my kind of books like whether it's due to Epic shared good, epic shut down and now make epic money. They they're written, not horizontally, they're written vertically. They're written for a generation that doesn't read as much, and I wish they did. But you can't just say, oh, you should read more, you then have to write a book in a manner that they would consume, which was my attempt, and it seems to have worked. But I have often found people who actively read such as yourself saying, No, it was just very disconcerting, very disorienting to read your book because it felt like it didn't have a start. It didn't have a finish. Never story. It was just like, things thrown in, which is like Yeah, that's exactly how it was planned. So I'm not surprised you. Yeah,
Michelle D'costa 04:53
nobody. I really love the experimental format. You know, and you know, so Tara and I actually work you know, in As in the publishing industry, and we have seen it up close. And we actually do know, you know, like, sort of, yes, publishing has grown. But we also know that it is sort of centered within this Indian writing in English, sort of where it does keep a lot of people out, you know, for most of the books, also, and we read somewhere that you know, your previous publisher Chiki Sarkar from Juggernaut, who published, you know, two of your books, she said that, you know, she was approached by a waiter at a restaurant in Mumbai, who said that he had pre ordered your debut book right now, and referencing this, she also said that, you know, it's very rare for the world of sort of English publishing to influence working class people, which we totally agree on, right. So I want to know, why is your book the exception, do you also sort of notice this gap in the industry, I
Ankur Warikoo 05:43
had Michelle. And that stemmed. months before the books came in, through the content itself, I often narrate this story. And it's fascinating whenever it happens, even today, because it's happened so many times. And still, it gives me goosebumps, I'll be there, say, at a corporate event or something. And it'll be usually at a five star hotel, or a plush venue and something like that. And you step in now, because the corporate folks have called me, I would imagine that most of them, No, me. But you enter the hall, and then you suddenly have people from the corporate CXOs, and everyone who want to click a selfie, and then also the servers and the helpers from the hotel, who also want to click the selfie and that wide range of just economic strata. And then there'll be people who will be in their 20s. And they'll be like, Oh, my mom introduced you to me, or my mom is such a big fan, or my dad, such a big fan. And then that age range. And then, of course, the geographical range of people from SAR across the country, places that I frankly, have never even heard of I get going to. And that everyday just tells me the power of content and storytelling, which you very clearly know, because you're in that exact same business. It just so so powerful stories connect and connect in ways that you cannot comprehend when you came up with that story. I certainly couldn't. And I've, I've now come to realize that if you come across as authentic, if you come across as somebody who's not like, I am flawless, and look at my life, and it's so cool, and I don't have any mistakes, to speak off, and I'm just super rich and look at my fancy life, then you alienate people a fair share of it. But if you come across as somebody who genuinely is like, Hey, I messed up, I have screwed up, I am human, I will make mistakes. Forget making mistakes in the past, I still make mistakes. And when I do, I just own up, get better. And try not mistake, repeat those mistakes in the future. And that makes you very relatable because then people see some part of their own persona in you, just as they see in the movies, where there's always this movie that you go to, which is like this Dreamland and this fairytale, and yeah, you like it, but the ones that hit hard are the ones which are like, Oh my god, like I see a part of my life in that, in that actor in that in that role in that character. And, and that is when you connect in a way that you just cannot forget.
Michelle D'costa 08:23
Yeah, I do. I definitely agree on that. Because I think for me growing up loving stories, right? So be it in the form of books feed in the form of movies, doesn't matter what format. I think content has a way of staying with you, you know, if it's relatable, definitely because see, at the end of you know, let's say Tara and I, we read a lot of books, let's say right, but at the end of it, what would we remember, definitely, we remember that one scene, or that one line that we have connected to that has some sort of relation towards right, maybe something they've experienced or something we believe in. So you know what, what I really like about your journey is, of course, your latest book. We know that, you know, you sort of started writing it because you wish you had been given this when you were young, right? Because we know our school colleges, Tammy they never sort of teachers decide which is for most of the people, at least I do hope that, you know, some families do teach their kids this. And you also mentioned in interviews that, you know, there was a point where you hated money, you know, you did not have some sort of good relationship with it. And you know, this sort of complicated relationship is something we all know, right? So at what point did this relationship with money change?
Ankur Warikoo 09:28
It's been a it's been a slow and gradual process. Michelle and I, I almost never know the answer to at what point or that one incident because it is so Bollywood like, like there was this one night where everything changed. And there was this one moment where everything changed. I think real life is just a series of very small realizations over a period of time to get you to the point that you are. I certainly know that a big event was when in 2019 I stepped down as the CEO of my previous startup nearby, and I decided to take a break Yeah. And during that break, COVID happened in March 2020 happened and everyone else was was locked up. And I didn't have an income stream because I used to get a salary as a founder, I had my equity in my startup, but that's just paper wealth. It doesn't amount to anything from a cash or money point of view. And I had invested all of my money, all of my money until that date, in startups, and nowhere else, no errors, I genuinely felt that people who invest in mutual funds and gold in real estate, they are like, dumb losers of the first order, because they don't know shit. And I'm like this cool dude, who is from the startup world, and I know exactly how to make money. And I'm going to make billions of it and not billions of it. So all of my money had gone into nearby my own startup and other startups, which is, is the worst way to, to use your money. But I was just very flippant, as I've admitted in the book as well, I disregarded money and disrespected it, I hated it. Because I felt that I had control over it, I could make money whenever I wanted to, through my hard work and my intellect and my capabilities. And because I could make it whenever I wanted to, I didn't have to think hard about where what I wanted to do with it. So it's like, startups it goes. So in 2020, when COVID happened, I was staring at five months of runway, and five months of money in my bank, to pay for the school fees for the kids, the home EMI or living expenses, taken care of my parents as well. And no money to speak off and no income that was coming in the foreseeable future. And that's when it hit hard because I was 40 at that point of time. And you've come from good schools, you're surrounded by smart people, you think that you're capable, and yet at 40, you are completely at a loss when it comes to this one aspect of your life, which is financial stability. And I was like, eff my life, like how did I even get to this point? How did this even happen, and that's when I sat down. And I realized that I had looked at money. So So in an unkind manner that I deserved to be where I was. And now I had to change things. And I started to make those steps and also started to share all of that experiences online. And that's when the YouTube personal finance angle took over in 2020. And that became a team on it. So on and I think that was a that was a big point, when I realized that the game that I was playing, was just not set up for success at all. So I changed dramatically, both from how I used my money, how I earned my money, how I looked at that money. And now I think I'm in a far far better spot, much aware, still learning, but definitely much wiser than I was as early as three years back.
Tara Khandelwal 12:52
And I think the book is so helpful for everyone, you know, certain principles really resonated with me, when you talk about, you know, saving a part of your income 20% of your income 30% of your income. And also the whole thing about needs, where you said that, you know, the more you earn doesn't mean that your needs have to go up exponentially, you're still going to take it's still going to take one rickshaw ride to get from A to B, you know, you're not going to take three rickshaw, your Netflix account is a Netflix account, you know, your needs don't have to sort of rise exponentially. And and for me, I think that really, Stockholm and also sort of like living within your means is very, very important. Because we're always so carried away with the latest trends. We see things on social media, we see people taking fancy holidays, buying iPhones and Apple watches and all of those things. But how do you really, that I think what you're really shown what you've done so well is how do you build wealth, and that is what everyone is trying to do. And wealth means freedom. And the book has some very interesting points about building wealth. One of which Michelle and I were talking a lot about is the side hustle. Because actually Michelle has my own side hustle, which is also writing books. And for me, I'm trying to build wealth through a Business Route. But it just got us thinking, you know, for working professionals, you know, does does billing a side hustle, guarantee income or Well, you know, especially for maybe women who already kind of have a side hustle of taking care of their families and all of those things. So could you give us an example of someone who's successfully you know, done a side hustle and made money off it?
Ankur Warikoo 14:35
I can I can start with my wife, because she's she's the best example of that. I here's a story and it's a really interesting one. So she she started working at the age of 22. And she admits she doesn't know where she got it from, but from the age of 23, she was regularly investing And it's not that investing is something that she had learned from her parents or from a family in general, she doesn't come from a business family, it's all working class and so on. So she doesn't know where she got it from. But she was very disciplined with her investing. She, she said, the first year that I own, I will spend all of it. And then the second year, I will start investing. That's what she did. And she started investing at the age of 23. And she worked in really good places, Discovery output magazine, traveler, blah, blah, blah. And by the time she was 30, she's like, You know what? I'm done. I've really enjoyed working, but I think I had like a break. So she took a break. And we got married when we were 27. So we were three years into our marriage. And she's like, No, I want to travel. And then she went and traveled and did our own thing. And then we had our first child at the age of 31. So she was like, I want to become a full time mother for some time. And then, after about three years, two years, at 33, she was like, I want to get back into the workforce. And I asked her this question, which of course, we recognize the privilege of, and that is, do you need to earn money? Or do you want to earn money. And she's like, well, I want to earn money, I don't need to earn money, we were we were well to do we were taken care of, and there was no necessity for another income to be added. And that's when I told her like, if you don't need to earn money, then the worst thing will be to go back to the world that you came from, because that's not a world that you entirely liked. Why don't you go and spend your time figuring what is it that you would like you don't know the answer upfront, but the only way to know is to explore. So go about exploring, figure things out. And because you don't need to earn money, just be okay with whatever money comes your way. It's not a mark on your capability. It shouldn't be about your ego, it certainly shouldn't be about your self respect. You are just exploring who you are and what you could do. So because she'd been in sales all through her life, she's like, yes, let's start with that. And she realized a lot of creative folks, animators, photographers, videographers, designers, they are really good with that art, but they suck at selling, they just don't know this. So uncomfortable selling, they don't know how to price themselves. They don't know how to collect payments. They don't know how to be very disciplined and set boundaries with clients. This is like, let me do all that work for you. So you do your bit, and I will be your representative, your manager and whatnot. And you just give me a cup. So she did that. And as part of that, no, she did it for two years. And she was really happy with it. One day, she has this seminar at organic farm. And, and she really likes what's spoken about in the organic farm and about organic farming and so on. He's like, You know what, I'm really interested in that. So she then goes and approaches the organic farmers, like, Do you need help? And they're like, yeah, no, we are an organic farm. And we try and set up these formulas for people are like, great, I will become the salesperson for that. So then for the next three years, she became an organic farmer. And all this while she wasn't earning like, insane money. She was earning good money, but it wasn't like life changing or anything like that, certainly far, far lesser than what she was earning in a job. But she was far, far happier. And at that point of time, she'd gotten so good with the entire sales bit and organizing itself and so on that I said, You know what, I'm looking for a manager and I think you can do a good job of it. So why don't you become my manager, and now just represent everything, which is what she does. Now she is my manager. And she goes through managing all of our brand collaborations, all of our external dealings, all of our corporate trucks, basically, the money side of our businesses managed entirely by her, and she does a commendable job. And what I like about this is the realization that you don't need to earn money, you just want it for your own financial freedom. And that's where you're going to play the game very differently. And a lot of people may not be in this position and recognize the privilege. But if you are in this position, then to again, put yourself through the drought of corporate life, and everything that sucked the energy out of you is just criminal, because then you're following the same playbook that the world had given to you without questioning whether you want to play differently or not. And that I believe is the big mistake. The big mistake people make is they take the world's prescribed playbook as theirs, which is what I did as well. My parents gave me a playbook. Study hard, get through good college, study hard, get a good job, work hard, get promotions, appraisals, and your life will be started. And I was like that is it. I didn't know of any other playbook. So I chose that playbook and I delivered on it. And yet life didn't work out for me. And that is when it hit me hard that every one's playbook is different. Every one's game is different. Every one's rules are different. And if you You don't understand the game that you are good at. And the rules that you want to play by, you will always be playing somebody else's games on their rules. And then you don't have a choice. You don't get to crip. You don't get to complain. So everybody was like, No, I hate this corporate life. I hate this. It's set up this way. I hate that it set up this way, bro, you didn't make the case someone else did. It's their rules, you have a choice, either play that game, or design your own game. But you don't get to complain if you're playing somebody else's game. And in the side income, the best thing is, you design your own game. You design the speed of that game, you design the rules of the game, you design, how long you want to play it for whether you want to play it for when do you want to play? All of that is your choice. And I have so many conversations, particularly with women who want to get back to the workforce after becoming a mother or after taking a break from their career. And my first question is, do you need to earn money? Or do you want to earn money? Because the game will be very, very different bases this answer? And when they realize that, it just opens up a whole new world of opportunities for them, for that matter. Anyone else? No, just
Michelle D'costa 21:17
totally, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Because I could totally relate to it. I mean, of course, as as you said, you know, I totally acknowledge the privilege, which is why, throughout my life, I felt that if I didn't have the support of my parents, right, I was always conscious. And because my parents had given me the space, you know, so I've been writing for the past 15 years, which is what I was telling Tara, that throughout my writing, I never knew that I could earn for my writing. It was always a passion, it was always an you know, it's something that you sort of brought up with, but you feel her it's a side hustle, okay, it's a thing that you do for fun, right. And it's only now after like, 15 years. And I mean, I have a book out that's coming out this year and oval. And I'm super excited. It's coming out from Westland. And for me, it's really huge, you know, as I was telling Tara because when you write you write, because you love writing, but at the end of the day, you always want to be compensated for all that work. You know, so I think I could totally relate. And I really believe that that distinction between Warren versus Neil is super important. Because for the need, yes, you might have something going on for which is, you know, like a day job or some which most of the writers in India need, right to to keep to make a living. But on the other hand, you know, you can have a side hustle, which sort of keeps you going and sort of, you know, you have your own plan. You have your own playbook, as we call. Yeah,
Tara Khandelwal 22:32
exactly. Yeah. And who knows, you know, I mean, you write sort of three, four books, one might get adapted for a movie, you own the IP for that. And, and 1050 viewers, you might be earning way more from that than your, you know, real job. But you also may not, I mean, that's the risk of it. But at least you're giving yourself that shot? Of Exactly. Doing it. Exactly. Yeah. And coming to lighting. You know, it was We Are the World of writers, we also teach writers. And we were interested because you have a writing course, where you teach writers how to make money from writing and you're a writer yourself. So when did your journey from with constant sort of begin and what are your tips for writers? What would you say is your biggest tip for writers today?
Ankur Warikoo 23:18
My biggest tip, let me start with that is just write everyday, write everyday, not for anybody else, just for yourself, right? Every day, there is nothing that will make you a better writer than writing every day. For that matter. There's nothing that will make you better at anything than doing it every day. Pro is the amateur that shows up every day. The Pro is the amateur that shows up every day, it nobody is born abroad, nobody is born with an innate sense of talent. That doesn't need to be. It doesn't need to be worked on like nobody is born with this, this super quality that doesn't need to be worked upon. And writing in particular, is so fascinating, because it's just not about writing for me. Here's the best thing about writing, writing, because it's the slowest form of expression, like it actually takes time to write. And I mean, physical writing, you could be typing as well. But that's not really writing for me in my head, writing his pen and paper. When you do that, you're essentially training your mind to pace your thoughts of all the thoughts in your head, you're picking up the one that is the most important in that moment and writing it down. And that over time, will teach you how to filter your thoughts and to speak coherently. Writing makes you a better speaker, something which is so ironical and so baffling for a lot of people that they don't even believe it when I said it, but writing makes you a better speaker. And writing makes you a better thinker. Writing certainly makes you a better writer. It has such beautiful ramifications that I wish everybody was at it. I don't know why I got drawn towards writing, but I've been writing for nearly 30 years now. I started writing when I was in school. So I used to write for the school magazine. And my parents very lovingly encouraged me to do. So my teachers were very forthcoming. So they also did. And I used to write short stories, poems, we don't offensively called poems. never knew that until recently. I used to just love writing, writing, writing, writing, writing, never for the sake of anybody, certainly not with the objective of writing a book or releasing something, and so on. And then, in 2005, when I joined business school, I started a blog. And that blog was just about everything that was happening to me as a business school student, because so much was happening on a daily basis as a business school student. So I started documenting that, and that blog still runs. So it's been 18 years, I write on that blog every single day. And I've been writing for the last 18 years. And that's the public record of my writing. If one really had the time, and will, and I don't know why anyone would, you could go all the way back to 2005 2006. And read what uncle Wailuku read like, you would certainly laugh because I certainly laugh when I was like, Oh, my God, that's such a horrible childish writing. And I love the journey that I want to take in all these years. But writing has just stayed with me. And the book was then a very easy outcome. Because I, I never set out to write a book I set out to write. And the books, at least, the three so far, and certainly the next two that are planned, will simply be a curation of all the writing that has already happened over the last 30 odd years.
Tara Khandelwal 27:05
That's very inspiring, because you're so right, and you have to do something every day, to become better at it. And oftentimes, we work with writers. And that's exactly what we say, as well. Creativity is a process. And the more you do it, the more inspired you will be the chances of you getting inspired will, will be more and more. So what do you think, you know, because you're a multi format, creator, you have YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and you're killing, you know, all those platforms. I mean, it's really sort of an inspiration. But what do you think a book can convey that you can't on social media?
Ankur Warikoo 27:44
Don't think a book is about conveying something special for me a book, particularly for somebody who creates content, as actively as I do, is serving the need for curation in a world of information overload. It's nothing new that somebody hasn't heard of. So for example, make epic money is frankly, just a text version of my YouTube videos. But it's an orchestrated form. It's curated, it's compiled in a version that is very easily accessible. You don't have to search you don't have to second guess you don't have to, once you've consumed one video, think of whether the next one you're watching is actually the one that should follow it, or should it come before, or should something else have started with? It's like a curriculum, and it's a flow, because it's nonfiction, it, it serves that purpose very well. So for me, a book is always curation in an information overload world. And it is also about momentary inspiration, particularly the way that I write because I often say just open up the book to any page, and you will have something that you can take away. And it needed follow a story didn't have you understand what came before what will come after it's just in that moment that you can get something that hopefully will feed your soul and make you feel like you have one step more that you can take. And that's that's just the the larger piece of it. Maybe and it's too early to tell. It also is the most permanent artifact, because platforms will come and go and videos will come and go but a book I'm assuming and hopefully it will stay a lot longer. So 50 years from now, when there may not be an Instagram or YouTube, there will still be a book. The difference will be people won't be reading it. They will be downloading it into their mind or some shape and form like that. But it'll still be readily available repository or artifact to consume.
Michelle D'costa 29:47
Yeah, I just I think you've made my day that line is the best line. Because I mean, that's why we we love books, right? Actually, if you think about it, it's not terrible. It's something that's that has stood the test of time and that's why We sort of love books, you know? And yeah, totally. And I think this is, you know, your approach of like you said that a reader could enter the book to any page and and sort of get something out of it. This is something that I do with poetry. A lot of people say poetry is intimidating, right? Because and you are often taught a way to like, you know, you should start a book and end a book in like a collection in a particular way. But then I say no, here, why don't you just, you know, open a book, randomly open the poetry collection, randomly look at the poem, you don't even need to understand the entire goal. That's okay. It might even be a line that stays with you. And I think often people are very harsh for themselves to sort of, you know, say, but hey, I didn't understand that. Anyway. Now, this question. I mean, there is definitely a vested interest in this occur, you know, we know that you've made crores from your book, you know, nobody has done that. Right. And you have a lot of followers on inciting, you know, millions. So, I want to know, how were you able to take the writing and sort of, you know, be able to sell it to so many people, I mean, because especially someone whose novel is coming up this year, I wanted to know, if you have any tips for, you know, people who want to figure out how to crack the marketing code, because like you said, there are a lot of talented people, they Yes, they have their passion for their work, they are talented, all of them. But it's almost like this resistance to sort of, you know, promote their work or sell it. So yeah, how did you do it? And what would be your tips? I,
Ankur Warikoo 31:22
I, I often say this, Michelle, writing a book is far far, far easier than selling one. And I think the world would be a very different place, if a lot of people understood that. Because a lot of people just right in believing that it's the honorable thing to do. But I truly feel that the moral responsibility of every author is to make sure that their book reaches people. It's not to just write one. Because that's, that's just part of the much bigger puzzle that you have to solve. Also, the easier bit of the puzzle that one has to now how do you go about doing it, and I'll admit, when I was going through this journey, as recently, as two weeks or three weeks back, I was telling my wife, there are such good quality books that never reach the hands of people, that I feel that there is a business case to just create a book, marketing agency, just that, nothing else, I'm not gonna help you with editing with publishing with distribution with nothing. I am just in just in just going to crack the code for how do you make sure that the book reaches the hands of many more people than it did. And there are three parts to it. One is, of course, your resident. First, adopters are early adopters. And in my case, thankfully, there was a distribution. So it was easy. There were people who were kind of waiting, and you just get that started. But for a lot of people, they don't have that distribution. So you start with friends and family, and then you you go, then the second one is, you have to go and create buzz about that book, whether paid or organic, so that people start sharing their experience with the book. It's not about Amazon reviews, No, I'm talking about Instagram shares, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube videos, you have to start feeding that funnily. So I don't know, a lot of people laugh at me for doing so. But I find it the most fundamental thing too, is, there will be people who will tag me on Instagram, or a Twitter post, reading this book, and so on. And I'll always say, waiting for your comments or your feedback. Hope you love the book. And if you whatever is your experience, it will mean the world to me if you left an Amazon review so that people learn from your reading experience. So I'm shamelessly asking for reviews because I know that that feeds into that funnel. I'm also making sure that my book is written in a way that it's very, it's Instagrammable. It's actually cool to click a photograph of that book, whether it's the cover of the book, whether it's the word epic in it, whether it is because all of that is appealing to my Tigi I'm not writing for a 40 year old who would never click a photograph of do epic shit and post it on their Instagram, if at all they have one because it's almost offensive for them. But a 20 year old will be like uncool as fuck if I am clicking do epic shit, and making it look like I'm reading that book or I have gained a lot from that. And the third is, you use that to reach out to more and more people so you're not relying on just your word of mouth or your funnel. You're now feeding off others you're standing on the shoulders of others and making that happen so you make them The really important people in the equation, for example, and I owe my happiness I don't have the latest version of this. I think we were one of the first, if not the only books in India ever. On the back, when people usually say, oh, Seth Godin has something to say about this. Tim Ferriss has something to say about this. We can say it has something to say about this. I was like, I couldn't care about these people. We picked up random Amazon reviews and posted at here. I Michels review, Tara's review. Rajesh, is review, Ahmed's review, nobody's, but the review mattered a lot to me. And when that happened, what does it tell every reader who picks up the book that I am also important, and that is feeds into the psyche of who they are, right? Because the author is not coming in saying, Oh, look at all these fancy people who have most likely never even read one page of this book, but are writing about this book, because anchor is a friend of theirs. These are people have actually gone to the book benefited from it. And their name is now going to be on this book for ever. With the review, it makes them immortal in that sense. And then he has a small things. You speak about that? In your Whatsapp group, you speak about that in your newsletter, you speak about that on your of course, your Instagram posting, blah, blah, blah. And I do believe that a lot of people will as you rightly pointed out, Michelle, shy away from becoming a marketeer or endorser of their own product, which is such a shame. Because why would you write a book in the first place if your intention was never to make it reach to the right kind of audience. And I feel that that's injustice to the entire role that you are playing as a as an author. And I would always say, please go about like, spend money on advertising as well do that you will be surprised at how well the funnel works, how well that funnel works. And last thing, which I know my publishers will never like me for saying. But at least I don't care about this. And I say this, because I know this conversation is going to go public. So it's very likely that this one small piece will be picked up for controversy and then plastered all over the internet. I'm not a supporter of piracy. But I am not pained by piracy. I don't care if my books are pirated. I actually don't. I don't I in fact, love it when my books are pirated. Because my intention is not to make money from my books. My intention is for the content of that books to reach out to more and more people. So if I see this book available at the Metro Station at 50 rupees, one, I know the only person who's losing money is me. Number two, I also know that somebody is making money from it. And most likely that person needs that money far more than I do. Number three, I then know that somebody is picking that book up, who would have otherwise never picked up a 399 will be book. So for me, if I am at a loss, and there are two people who are gaining from that loss of mine. I'm extremely happy. And I don't care about the publishing industry and about anyone else who then claims No, no, no, this is like the author's good work going into waste and so on. Because I personally don't care about that. I would absolutely respect every author's right. To say no, please buy originals, and don't buy pirate stuff. I have personally bought pirated what? There's nothing called bought pirated music. I have pirated music when I was a college student with no money. I have bought pirated books when I was a college student with no money. And when I started earning money, I stopped doing it. And I believe that everybody does that. This is not stealing and they're not thinking like steely. They don't even know. For example, none of our books have a paperback. They're only in hardcover. That's because I like hardcover. But people don't know when they're buying a paperback that it's pirated. They don't and our job cannot be to tell them that because no matter how good a job we do, we will never be able to tell the entire world that hey every paperback of do epic shit and get epic shut down and make epic money is pirated. They will not even believe us when we say so. But it's such a great way for me to know what is the market share and so on. So I totally know conclusively like make epic money has sold over a million copies while on record. We've only sold about 303 50,000 or so. Because for every 10 Instagram posts Have make epic money seven or paperback. It just ramp it. And that's true for do epic shit. It's too hard get a picture done. And I know that I am possibly because of that attractive price point, one of the most pirated authors in the country, no way to tell. That's just my hunch. And I'm totally okay with that, because the book is reaching the hands of people. It's only feeding in the trust engine that I want to build through my content. And the only person who is economically losing is me. And I'm okay with that.
Michelle D'costa 40:34
Yeah, and I think what you mentioned about the hardcover and paperback is very interesting and cushy, a lot of people don't know that usually, the hard part covers are definitely it's more expensive than the paperback in general. And I recently saw a publisher put out a poll on LinkedIn, which said, Hey, would you buy a hardcover, which is priced around, let's say, 600, or a paperback, which is around 300? Right. And the poll, you know, without any surprise, people take the paperback, right. I mean, it's sort of I mean, it's something that you understand that this is a consumer behavior. And I think for me, I would definitely find it a compliment. If I see my book sold and the traffic signals or if it's pirated, because then it shows the courts, you know, it's in demand, or people are worth it. I think the only time I wouldn't like it is if my only source of income was loyalty, because then as you know, right, that's just your only way of making money. Anyway,
Ankur Warikoo 41:22
I totally understand. Yeah. Okay,
Michelle D'costa 41:25
so we have come to the crowdsourced question section awkward. Of now we, we sort of, we've got a lot of questions, what we did was we picked the top five, okay, which we felt was sort of, you know, a mix. And what you need to do is you need to sort of, you know, I would say, give us answers, but in a in a nutshell. Okay, so it could be a very short answer, something that you feel is sort of, you know, the most authentic way to reply to it. Okay, so the first one is, I love to travel, how can I balance my daily budget with my travel needs, what's the best way to plan?
Ankur Warikoo 42:01
Oh, travel is not a need, it's a want. And as per the 5030 20 rule, 30% of your income should go towards your wants. So your travel budget will have to come from that 30%. And if it's not adequate, save up that 30% till it adds up to the vacation budget that you have in mind.
Tara Khandelwal 42:23
Oh, nice, very practical, and nothing useful. Again, so all the questions are like this. So the next one is I have a passion, but I don't have the money to invest in a startup. So how do I keep my passion going? Oh,
Ankur Warikoo 42:37
passion has nothing to do with investing money to do so there is, there is a misconception that you need to have a product on day one for you to run a startup because that's how the startup world is glamorized. My suggestion is, go and test out the idea of your product in the most nimble manner possible. Try out through WhatsApp, try out through emails, try out through SMS, try out through a basic website that doesn't cost much when you get that confidence that this idea could work, invest a little bit of money, it doesn't have to be a lot of money for you to start making money from it. And whatever extra money you make invested back into the business, this is a slower, but a far more predictable way of getting to a certain size and scale. At which point of time, you will have the confidence that this works, you may also have enough traction that you can raise money externally. Or you may have reached a scale where you don't need to raise money because the business itself is generating enough revenue that it can support its own self.
Michelle D'costa 43:43
Okay, nice. All right. The next one is I'm 40 years old, but my parents still manage my money. What do I do?
Ankur Warikoo 43:52
Stop them from managing money and take charge of your own money. That's, that's the way to do it. You You always sound as if you don't have a choice, which I refuse to believe. So I'd say at 40, you do have a choice. Because you asked this question. My hunch is that you like the comfort of your parents managing your money, but at the same time you you want to be sure that you can do it on your own. take that leap of faith you will have to
Tara Khandelwal 44:23
that's certainly I'm a young entrepreneur. Two of my attempts at business have failed, what should I do now?
Ankur Warikoo 44:30
Third, and then fourth, and then fifth, and then sixth, and then seventh. You have nothing to lose, my friend. Fun fact, if you toss a coin once, the probability of you getting a head is 50%. If you toss a coin 10 times the probability of you getting one head is 99.9%. Which means life is all about tossing a coin as many times as you can, because you just need to win once. You don't need to win every time; you just need to win once. So, keep tossing the coin. You’ll get your head.
Tara Khandelwal 45:02
I can't tell you how much I love that. So that's I think, as an entrepreneur, that's exactly the journey that I'm on, you're failing every day. And through those failures, you're getting a little bit of success, and then you're failing some more, and then you're getting a little bit of success, but it just does not happen without being okay with sort of constantly failing. So I love that so much. Okay, so that ends our section. And so I have, we have a little few more questions. So let's go to book recommendations. We love your book, we have read your books, and um, you know, I like reading a lot of nonfiction. So some of my favorite books are atomic habits by James clear. I'm like a very big fan of his psychology of money also really changed the way that I think. So what are your what are some books that have opened up your views just like how your book is opening up perspectives for us? What has opened up perspectives for you?
Ankur Warikoo 46:03
Several, the one big one was reading The Fountainhead by iron Rand. In 2001, when I was a 21 year old college student, it just completely shook me because it was such a different approach towards life. It's, I think, the last fiction book that I have read, I've never read fiction after that was felt like the right tribute to the book, such a fascinating one, highly, highly recommended. Then in 2009, at the age of 29, when I became an entrepreneur for the first time, my founder gifted me a book called Rework, by Jason Fried and DHH, who are the founders of this company called 37, signals, or Basecamp. And it changed the way that I looked at work, it's by far the most gifted book, from my end, I would have gifted this book to nearly 200 plus people now, and highly recommend it to every founder, and that I you should certainly pick it up. And the third book, that really changed my way of thinking, but it came at the right time, when I was about 38 or so, any earlier, I would not have appreciated this book is a book called atma Minh at a mun Atman. It's by a guy named Kapil Gupta. It's a very low profile book, you wouldn't usually hear about it. But it's a fascinating and a very, very, very hard take on life. In fact, challenge is all your notions that you've had about life so far. And I think I needed that at that point of time. And I, it's become one of my books, which I read every year. And I draw from it every time I read it. So it's fascinating, these three, almost coinciding with the age that I was,
Michelle D'costa 47:56
yeah, I think, I think definitely, you know, like, as we grow, you know, sort of breeding tests, if all when we come across different, you know, different kinds of books and all of that, but it's those books, which sort of stay with us, right? The ones like the foundation, or as you call it, so I'm very curious uncle See you in your book, right in epic money, or even now, you know, in this forecast conversation you shared, for example, that one should write every day, right? So just how similarly, you sort of, you know, shared this thing about writing in the book you've had, you've given a lot of advice to do with, you know, investing or saving, or you know, what to do with things like health insurance, whether you should have a car or not have a car, all of that, right? I'm very curious to know which rules you sort of, you know, I would say you still abide by all sorts of which rules do you fail at even today? You know, because I've always wondered, there are a lot of books, which sort of tell us, let's say, you know, there's a certain way of living, for example, you know, the 5am Club, if you have to be covered by or James clears atomic habits, right. Like, there are different ways of living life. But I'm always curious to know whether whether, you know, the people writing it, whether the author still relates to the book, like let's say, years later, or or sort of, like, do they, you know, let's say they're able to keep up with it in their daily routine, what is it like I,
Ankur Warikoo 49:10
I would not make any of that claim, I think after five years, I'll be a very happy person if I can't relate to any of the three books that have released so far. And I'm like, You know what, this book needs a refresh. And I'll write another one. And maybe another one another one, because I keep changing as a person and I can't claim to be the same person that I was three years back. So why should the book be a permanent fixture and suddenly give the impression that this is the only permanent way of looking at life or my there are some rules which are not so much rules, but habits that have really helped me for example, reading every day, working out every day, eating right meditating every day. These are rules that I live by, and they're really really helped me so I have no reason not to live by them. And there are some finance rules that helped me a lot. One is is SAP investing every single month, my money just automatically gets deducted. And it just goes, and I don't have a say in it. It's almost like the bank, EMI where I don't get to call the option of whether I want to pay it this month or not. It just goes. So so that happens 30 day rule is a really good rule, where if I have to buy anything big, I will wait for 30 days. And if after 30 days, I still feel like buying it. That's when I will buy it. And more often than not, I don't feel like buying it. Because I'm like, No, it was no 30 days back, I felt like I needed it. But I really didn't need it. And the third one was, if you use something occasionally, or if you're buying something that will only depreciate in value, then consider renting it and not buying it. So we still rent our car. In fact, funny enough, our lease has gotten over this month. So we are like renewing a lease for the next three years. And that process is happening right now. So we don't find any, any need or any joy in buying a car or certainly not buying a fancy car. So for us, it's just there, we only have one house, which is the one that we stay in, we don't have any other real estate, I don't understand that. I don't invest in stocks, I only invest in portfolios of stocks, where somebody else is managing that money because they are an expert. I'm not. So all of those rules are something that I I stick by and I live through most of the rules that I have submitted in the book. But as I said, I won't be surprised if a new rule comes along and makes me question every other rule that's existed so far. And if that works for me, I will happily change it.
Tara Khandelwal 51:44
Awesome. What I think I really liked about this book is that you've debunked so many myths. Yeah, which you just mentioned, you know, like, for example, everybody wants to buy a house. And if you do the math, you know, actually renting is far more lucrative and makes way more sense then spending that much money buying a property that you can then use that's not liquid, or you know exactly what you sell car versus no car health insurance versus life insurance. These are all some of the things that you've explained which that you've debunked and Diddy, making, making a case and changing the way that young people in India think about money, which I think is so needed, it's so useful. So now that brings us to our last section of the interview, which is the rapid fire round where you have no answer in one word or just one line. All right, yeah. So as that, okay, one common trait you see in young entrepreneurs.
Ankur Warikoo 52:41
aggression.
Michelle D'costa 52:43
Okay. All right, one book that you want to write in the next five years,
Ankur Warikoo 52:49
a book on building startups.
Tara Khandelwal 52:53
I was gonna ask you, that's coming. Okay, one common misconception people have about influencers,
Ankur Warikoo 53:03
that they spend 24/7 of their life on social media.
Michelle D'costa 53:10
Okay, one way to overcome writer's block,
Ankur Warikoo 53:13
write every day. Don't write for anybody else, write for yourself and write every day, even if it's the shittiest piece of writing, you just write everyday.
Tara Khandelwal 53:23
Your pet peeve when it comes to teaching young entrepreneurs or writers?
Ankur Warikoo 53:32
They want everything yesterday.
Michelle D'costa 53:38
Okay, what's next? I mean, we know that you have two books coming up. So what are they?
Ankur Warikoo 53:43
There is there is no next next for me is just process process process. So there's a book that's going to come out every year till I enjoy the process of writing a book. When I don't, the books will stop. And I will not have any regrets. And it's the same thing with my content as well. And it's the same thing with my courses as well. And it's the same thing with my life as well. It's just showing up every day doing the same thing every day, and not trying to see where it's taking you. Because eventually it will take you to places that you could not have predicted for yourself.
Tara Khandelwal 54:13
Wow. And I just I love how you have so much in you, you know.. So thank you so much. I think that, you know, we could speak to you for hours and hours on end. But thank you for giving us one hour of your time. It was really very valuable. And the book is well, thanks so much. Thank
Ankur Warikoo 54:55
you so much that I thank you so much for speaking to you. Thank you for your thoughtful questions.
