6.9 Tarun Mehrishi: Art Heist Of Rs 400 Crore Holds India’s Biggest Secret

One powerful secret. Two stolen paintings. And a man who will decide the fate of the world. 

Join Michelle as she sits down with Tarun Mehrishi, author of ‘The Portrait of a Secret’ - a novel inspired by true events. In an epic combination of art heist, historical fiction and spy thriller, Tarun’s book explores the aftermath of the theft of two priceless paintings and a secret that has the RAW, ISI and the CIA scrambling to gain control.

Tarun talks about how the book was inspired by India’s actual history of stolen art, how he acquired the inside scoop on spy work, and how his book is being adapted for the screen! 

Tune in!

Books and authors mentioned in this episode:

Wilbur Smith
Clear and Present Danger - Tom Clancy 
The Hunt for Red October - Tom Clancy
Calling Sehmat - Harinder Singh Sikka

Movies mentioned in this episode:

Raazi - Meghna Gulzar (Director)

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Tarun Mehrishi, Michelle D'costa

Michelle D'costa  00:00

Hi, everyone, welcome back. art heist, as you know, are always interesting. And it's not always because of how much the artwork is actually worth. But it's what secrets that they actually pulled. And today I'm speaking to an author who used inspiration from a real art heist story where there are these two paintings, you know, done by a Russian painter. And these paintings actually depict the Himalayas. And then they were stolen from the Indian agriculture research institute, right? And then they were auctioned in London, you know, prompting the CBI, which is the Central Bureau of Investigation of India, to alert the Interpol which is actually an international organization that fights crime. So you can imagine, you know, two pieces of painting has created so much havoc, right. And in the book that Tarun has written, we actually see that the India's chief of intelligence and without, he has spent a career battling India's enemies, you know, beat domestic beat foreign, and he has never before been challenged with a task of this magnitude, right, because now he has to figure out how to avert a nuclear strike against India. And he feels helpless, because he doesn't know much about it. But on the other hand, we have Carmen, who is a senior IAS officer, and who has been investigating these types of these, you know, paintings in India, and he has been planning on how to catch the tee. Now, what happens when a mythos and covers worlds collide? How are they related? Could an artwork be that dangerous? You know, what secret? Does it hold that it unleashes a global battle between raw ISIL CI, and you know, each agency scrambles for control over this secret. So let's find out what the secret is from Darren himself. Welcome, Darren.

Tarun Mehrishi  02:13

Thank you, Michelle. That's a wonderful introduction. That's pretty much the entire book summed up in two minutes, or less than that, perhaps. So let me try and give a little bit more detail on everything that we just said. Where I'm going to start is by saying that what I've learned now over a period of time, and 14, is that what we are taught by Bollywood about Python, and Java and all of these superheroes that live to fight by themselves for India is not really how life works. Often, often, more often than not, and I think it's probably anecdotally true for all of us as well. Our stories are created because of things that are happening around us. It's dependent on what your friends are doing, what your family is doing, what sort of bosses you have. So there are a host of factors that come into play to determine your own life story. And this would be even more true of somebody working in intelligence, where it's not just people within your country, within your industry that are influencing what's happening, it's literally a global battle for snippets of information that might determine the cause of an entire country. 

Michelle D'costa  05:46

See, clearly, I mean, the book was very entertaining. There is so much happening in the book, right. But for me, in fact, you know, what drew me to it is the fact that it's about an art heist, right? Because we have this whole world of stories around art heist, right. So like in history, we have some very famous ones like this Italian museum worker, right, who actually stole the Mona Lisa. And it's known as one of, you know, 20th century's greatest artists, right. And in India, we recently, you know, read the story in the form of a book of the Hyderabad heist, which actually, you know, it covers this heist in the Heidelberg Museum. Right? Now, your story is very Indian, at the same time, it's very international, no one would have ever imagined that, you know, two paintings that were done by a Russian painter, right about the Himalayas would hold a secret about India's partition, right? And what could be the connection there? So I want to know, how did you stumble across the real theft story, right in the news, and what attracted you to explore it further?

Tarun Mehrishi  06:44

So there's gonna be a long answer. But one, one was in the habit of reading the newspapers, shamefully, some of our less impressive main lines on a daily basis. But in those main lines in one of those main lines, one of the two big main lines, there was a couple of columns about the theft of these two paintings of India, and the fact that the Indian administration had taken action to try and recover control over these paintings. And I thought that was just interesting in itself, that we had lost a couple of paintings, and we're competent enough to try and claim those back. But But life lifes are difficult place, right, once you graduate from school in college. So in in the course of full blown employment, it's quite hard to find the time to actually sit down and write a work of fiction. So hats off to those that are able to do it as a side sort of job while they are also fully employed. For me, I had found my way to sports marketing, which is something I wanted to do since I was a child. So I was quite happy and quite engrossed in what I was doing and therefore never inclined to actually flesh out of a full blown book. And then ironically, it was COVID,So especially those first 21 days, when it was first becoming the difficult circumstance that it did 21 days was sitting at home and my industry sports literally died overnight. There was no question of, of playing any competitive sport, therefore, no personal was having a role to play at that point. So once sat, and on a lark really started writing, and the first 50 or 60% of it flew out seamlessly and beautifully. And once I was 60%, through, we figured out what to do again, in the sports industry, But nevertheless, a means of keeping everything afloat. And I went back to work. So this became a project that went back on the backburner. But whenever I did get a weekend free or some time free, I was trying to write it a little bit more. Now, eventually, it got to a stage where I just took a sabbatical from work my my management was kind enough to allow it. And in that sabbatical, I was able to finish the first draft of the manuscript. I must, I must say, thanks to two specialists, two people especially right. So one, both my batchmates from law school in Bangalore, one when I see toppity, who's also written two remarkable books, and another friend of mine called another country, who's now a partner at one of the leading law firms in this country. But when I, for example, you know, we've sort of played together we've been friends, but it's not like we hang out on a daily basis. But when I was nice enough to read the manuscript and give me very detailed comments to the extent of this coma is misplaced,  And what he did say that evening was that there is something here which could make this an interesting book, it needs a little bit more work, but I sat in the morning and I was done in the evening, which says a lot about the way the books been written. And for me, just coming from outside family that kind of support that kind of pat on the back was great motivate And then try and finish it. And then it was neelakantan, who had a bunch of brilliant ideas about how to layer the book a little bit more to add the complexity that now forms part of it, including this idea about hiding that secret within the paintings. Right? So between these two, the manuscript became something that was a lot richer, a lot more entertaining. It's, it's, I've said this a few times, I'll say it again. It's almost as if it was meant to be that at least the one book would get done.

Michelle D'costa  11:20

Ya know, that that's really, I would say, really like a, I would say, luck, as you said, See, luck has to play with it. But I also feel that that moment when you notice that clipping in the newspaper, I was more curious about, you know, because we read 100 things right now you have phones, you have laptops, you have you know, newspapers, you have everything, and you're always bombarded with information, right. And almost, you know, sometimes because of these clickbait headlines, you tend to get attracted to these news. But then how often do we actually, you know, you're intrigued enough to follow it, which is why I was very curious as to you know, what made you realize that the book in it, right, because it's very interesting. You know, the I would say the, the story itself is interesting, but I mean, with like, when you began, how did you sort of know that? Oh, yes, I can write an entire book on this, like, when did you sort of reach out for the material, at least the preliminary stages?

Tarun Mehrishi  12:10

Right, so So the materials are actually the great thing about the internet is that everything is available online, more or less, everything you need is available at the click of a few keys. What was interesting about this was the reference to Nicholas Rorick, his family, Vivica, Ronnie, you know those characters, which were larger than life in their own times. And then I thought there was the kernel of a story about the love story between a Russian painter and Indian actress, the theft of two paintings that were done at that point of time. And, you know, when I did decide to write it, and you open up anything about the road X or Divakaruni, it's incredibleNicholas, for example, has traveled for what I've read, he's traveled across all of Northern India, and that's literally from the northeast to Kashmir on five expeditions, leaving his wife and kids behind. Yeah, a very famous Russian painter, he actually ran off from Russia, because he had problems with Lenin. So it's, it's got a rich history there as well. And literally, now I am really thinking about it at times say, there is a story everywhere. Right now. It's it's it's a question of how you want to layer it. The first Google search was interesting from a lawyer's perspective, because there was a legal case happening. So you know, is this something you're sort of keen to understand how it's playing out? But then you read the angle on Bollywood, the Russia, the paintings, all of that intellect nearly half done here. And of course, maybe it wasn't enough to write a full blown book, but the ideas from Vienna and Mira continually add layer it up. No,

Michelle D'costa  14:00

no, it's a good starting point. Right. Like you said, I think I think the lawyer in you was drawn to the fact that it's happening right now. There's, there's something illegal about it, and then you know, the rest of it. So you see, we have seen so many art heist stories, you know, on screen, I would say so, for example, from the TV show, white collar to the film Big eyes, right, which is actually based on a true story for this female artists whose paintings had this very common feature of big eyes, okay. And it's my favorite sofa because, you know, it mixes art theft, along with power play in a marriage, right? So she actually gets married to this call, man. Right? And in her head, they have peers, right? Like he's also a painter. I'm also a painter. At the end of the day, what happens is he's actually a con artist. He manages to sort of, you know, just add his signature on to others paintings. And he sort of, you know, passes off as the creator of her own paintings, right, it's that bad. So I really find this whole genre very interesting because there are so many layers. I wouldn't know what do you find the most interesting about artists?

Tarun Mehrishi  15:02

I like the entire idea of stuff that is so subjective, being valued at the sort of prices,, especially paintings that you can't make heads or tails off. Right. So So I think that's fascinating. It's also generally interesting, because artists are not easy. Everybody understands the value of the art that they're controlling.I still see the Mona Lisa is is a ridiculous story in itself. What what my digging has now taught me is that there is an estimate somewhere, that India has probably lost about 50,000 pieces of art of sculpture of manuscripts of cortices that go back 10s of 1000s of years. And there's a story for each of those, right? Somebody must have been responsible for making these disappear from India, somebody must own them today, somebody may be putting some of this to productive use. So potentially stories there. The really interesting thing about art is always it's very difficult to know what's actually going on, nobody's willing to talk to you, because they're an outsider, very few people actually know what is happening and how it's happening. So for example, I got the opportunity to speak to a couple of guys that work for Indian intelligence. And somebody was recently pointing out to me that it's probably the third most smuggled code in the world, behind arms and drugs. Right, so it's as important as that. So absolutely fascinating. Other interesting thing about art is, it's not like guns, right? You can't throw them around. It's not like drugs, or you can stuffed them in somewhere. It has to be handled elegantly and carefully. Otherwise, you tend to lose the entire value of what you've just stolen. So there's a lot more delicacy and planning and operation and whatever you're trying to do with artists. I actually want to write a lot more on this subject from an Indian perspective, because if it is true that we have lost billions of dollars worth of stuff from this country, it's a travesty.

Michelle D'costa  17:02

I think you should that work would be really, really interesting, right? Because it has, as you know, just like this book, it has its foundation it has in spades in real, sort of, you know, even let it be speculation, right? I'm sure you not find the exact numbers. But then I think there's a lot of meat parents very interesting. Like you said, I didn't know that it was the third most smuggled good. I think it is. I don't

Tarun Mehrishi  17:23

know this for a fact, I want to disclaim it and say that's hearsay as well. But it did come out of a police officer. So he probably knows what he's talking about. But but let's say as a debut author is, I find that we have really considered this entire space of spies and espionage and this kind of thriller genre, to the Western authors. You know, they do a remarkable job, of course of producing beautiful book every six months. But look, India's intelligence is is not a joke, right? We are a large enterprise, we have hundreds or 1000s of people working for us as well, we're obviously doing a reasonably good job, especially now.. We seem to be doing much better, globally, politically, economically. So I'm sure Indian intelligence has a hand in a lot of what is going on? And why shouldn't we have our own heroes, there's no reason we need to only look at Daniel Craig playing James Bond, And I think that's a space I really want to try and, and contribute a lot more to be shorter, our own stories, we should also have our own heroes. No, totally. In

Michelle D'costa  18:40

fact, that is something that I really wanted to know, you know, because when I was doing research, or you know, on your process, or on the book, I found out that you've actually been following, you know, Western authors, and they have been inspiration. So for example, James Patterson, Tom Clancy, right, they've been your lifelong favorite. So I was curious to see how you've sort of blended all these stories, you know, these inspirations because whatever we read later, like they say, we read, we are what we read. So of course, you know, you've gathered all this, you know, over the years, you gather all these stories, how would you sort of make it, you know, Indian for this book? Did you sort of consciously use the techniques that they have used? Or did it sort of just organically come to you? You know, that that line

Tarun Mehrishi  19:21

is beautiful, right? You are what you read, and it's not conscious beyond a point if you read 20, Tom Clancy's or 20 Wilbur Smith's or whatever else it is, you tend to write like that, at least if not speak like that, because that's the style that's appealed to you when you've been reading those books. Never ever would I put myself in the same league as any of those guys. But you know, I'd like to think that it's a similar style of writing. You want to write a fast paced book, you want to write something that keeps people turning the pages. Leave every chapter on a cliffhanger if you can, or as best of a cliffhanger as you can. For me, I think There is a long way to go the detailing of some of these books, you know, you read a Tom Clancy, for example, his detailing of what a submarine might look like how missiles are fired, the helicopters, the weapons is incredible. At times, you're actually thinking you're sitting in those vehicles, or you're holding those weapons. And that's a lot of work to actually try and understand. You know, I actually think, I don't know, the sort of fact but I'd imagine Tom Clancy's actually held these weapons or visited these places to actually be able to write the way he does about some of these things. So that's certainly something I want to bring into my writing as well. I'd like to be he at some of these places that are writing about to see if he can make it more visual, more graphic. But but there's no one there's no need, I think to indigenize. You know, we're in a genre, which where we are competing with Western authors, obviously, they sell well enough in this country that I enough fiction readers. And to like I said, we are we are as good or as bad in the case of intelligence as anybody else in the world. Why should we tell our stories any differently? We don't need the song and dance. We don't need the romantic stories told the way they are. This is a serious business. I think it needs to be told seriously as well.

Michelle D'costa  21:13

Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think, you know, for me when I was reading the book, or I was very conscious of the fact that it's a it's a spy thriller. Right, like you said, and we don't have enough. And I think what we don't have enough of is women spies. Right. And that's something we saw in Razi, you know, with Alia, parts role. I mean, it's one of my all time favorite movies. And I also read that the author of calling semeth, right, which Rosie is based on, she acquired the rights, they are not patient rights to your book. So how is that?

Tarun Mehrishi  21:42

Oh, he's he having this cursor has acquired the rights to Yes,

Michelle D'costa  21:47

yes. How was that coming along? I was very curious upon that, is it? Is it a collaborative process?

Tarun Mehrishi  22:18

There's a long history to this entire conversation as well. So I had the opportunity to play a round of golf with Mr. Sikka adverse starting of writing this book when I had a broad idea for the story. And even at that point, he told me is made dumb high school buddy alakina to switch careers. Now, that entire process has taken the best part of two years, but now we are sitting at a stage where he has formally acquired the rights to the book, we are going to jointly work on scripting this, it's not easy. You know, he's he's had the opportunity to sort of be part of the process First, I've of course, never done this before. We have a vision of how we want to present the story to the world, especially to an Indian audience. And that vision is quite different from what has been presented previously. So it will be, at least in my head, and I think partly answers, it is a far more serious interpretation of the spy world, and then what has been presented to date. But but let's see how this evolves, you might eventually need to make some concessions, based on expert advice of what works in India, but but we'll see how those compromises are made as this goes along. I think this is actually going to take the next five or six months to meaningfully script before we can even think of moving forward with that.

Michelle D'costa  23:44

Right? No, definitely, I think any adaptation to screen you know, we've spoken to many writers, and they usually share that it's a long process, it takes time, then definitely longer than a book. But I'm happy that it's it's you know, in the process, and you know, very soon it's, you know, sort of going to be developed. So, you know, all the best with that. I see, I liked the fact that, you know, it had so many ingredients, right, the book felt larger than life. In fact, you've highlighted aspects of migration and, you know, like, to me, someone who's been a migrant, like I was in the Gulf for a long time. And now I've, you know, come back to India, I think, for me, what was what I found interesting was, you know, the journey of the Russian painter, how he sort of left Russia during the Bolshevik Revolution, right, then they, you know, sort of settled in India, and he developed this friendship with this Kashmir Raja, you know, so I was very curious about this friendship between both of them. You know, what about this aspect sort of drew you towards the story? And in your research, what What did you understand about their friendship that you had parents would have known before or that you hadn't seen in other stories?

Tarun Mehrishi  24:48

I don't know if this is the part of the story where I've taken creative Liberty right so I don't know if they were take fast friends in any which way. I am. I am aware based on whatever I've read that he spent some time I'm in Kashmir. And we're talking about a period of time where any big gun knew every other big gun right to the smaller world, a simpler world. So I would imagine that they didn't know each other relatively well, that he was actually involved in the founding of that museum in Kashmir. Part, you know, were they close enough for the Roger and him to have that conversation that's been detailed in the book for the Roger to interest him? To the degree he has, I can't say that for a fact, my heart says it's probably true that they were close enough. But let's see, I don't know, I don't know if that's actually factually correct. But but another story is always interesting, when it's looked at from the perspective of somebody who's an outsider, it might be hard to say that India was a United hole at the time that the roadex came to this country. But nevertheless, they were definitely culturally different. They had a very different perspective on what they wanted to do in this country. And the kind of work they did to was impressive, what I find, what I find absolutely lovely about the entire Rurik story is that Stratos love the son of Nicholas lauric. And the record didn't get married. And they did live together for the rest of their lives before sort of dying one year apart from each other after they moved to Bangalore. And when I read that part of it, to me, it actually seemed like the husband died of a broken heart because the wife had left for her heavenly abode.

Michelle D'costa  26:24

Oh, gosh, yeah, I, you know, that was my next question that apart from the friendship, I think the love story, the love angle was something that I was really looking forward to. And that's good to know that that has some sort of ways. In reality, it's also

Tarun Mehrishi  26:39

interesting, from what from what I read, this is this was Divakar second marriage. And I'm sure that must have been a big deal in the 40s, early 50s, when this entire sequence is playing out. But by by all accounts, you know, those, those guys are not as extensively covered as they deserve to be. Maybe I've been a little bit lazy, the extent of my research, but they're not as easily accessible on the internet as as a lot of other people. But by all accounts that I have read, it is quite a fabulous love story. And and a more capable author who writes in this genre might actually do a good job of putting out that love story in a more meaningful way.

Michelle D'costa  27:19

Yeah, totally. I mean, of course, see the book and the genre demands a certain kind of writing. But I think the fact that, you know, you've added all these ingredients just sort of makes the dish more richer. And I think, for me, what, what I realized was that it was so fast paced, right, the chapters are really short, it's fast paced, there are so many scenes, and then you show that, you know, in writing a thriller, grabbing the reader's attention, and sort of keeping them invested in the story is, of course, you know, like, Of paramount importance, right, I would wait scene for you was the most interesting to write, you know, and that you felt that the reader would be entertained as well, because in a in a thriller like this in a spy thriller, there's so much action happening right from the first page to the last page. But I'm very sure that there were some memorable scenes for you. So could you please like sort of maybe narrate one or two.

Tarun Mehrishi  28:05

So I'm going to narrate the two that popped into my head immediately. The first thing that pops into my head is pretty much the first chapter, where the heist is actually taking place. And because it was the first chapter, it was perhaps written with the most love. So hopefully, that sort of comes out as well. But it's a heist, which is not very technologically advanced, it's not taking place in a very secure building, yet you run certain risks about stealing from anywhere, it was still a government building. So you would imagine it is somewhat secure, it is somewhat protected. The the highest is relatively easy, but it's the thinking behind the highest the time to do it at the fact that they leave behind alternates to the things that they have stolen, to try and hide the highest for as long as they can. And, and simply that the two of them having never met each other actually complete the entire highest without saying a single word to each other. Right. It's, it's, it's complete silence.

Michelle D'costa  29:04

I love I love that. And in fact, you know, the small details that you that you put in that scene. So for example, wearing black so that the person will not be noticed in the dark, was just it's sort of like, you know, these these things that you see, sort of, you know, in Animal Planet on National Geographic sort of these camouflage tools that that, you know, animals are gifted with naturally, I think I found those very interesting. It's sort of I think, these combat combat techniques as well that they use to sort of pull it off.

Tarun Mehrishi  29:33

Yeah, thank you. You know, you also have to be careful, right? Because, for example, we're talking about a scene sensor in 2000. And let's say 2000. Let's take that as a date. In 2000. You have a scene where a god is walking around the building and listening to music. But should that God at that point of time be carrying a cellphone or should he be carrying the radio transistor? You know, just little things that one has got to be really careful about when I see property, for example, when you read my book, we have, we have a couple of characters working in the Institute from where the paintings are stolen. And the lower of those characters is explaining something to come on. And the way at first written it was, you know, he's making a three point argument. So like, we would write a saying, firstly, secondly, thirdly, and when I'd immediately come back saying, dude, no bureaucrat speaks like this, or at least no bubble speaks like this, you know, so you've got to make it more real, you've got to sort of abuse his use of the English language a little bit more. I'm trying to get that tone and tenor correct, which I think was fantastic feedback. The second thing for me that really sort of stands out is the revelation of our mole within the ISI. Right, and maybe that could have been done differently as well. But I quite like the idea of revealing that in the way it was done. We've had a number that correctly, it's a very, very short chapter is probably a page and a half. And it's just that revelation. But hopefully, it does sort of come as a significant surprise at the at the end of that entire build up to that particular chapter.

Michelle D'costa  31:09

Yeah, definitely. I think for me, yes, the most memorable one was definitely the heist in the beginning. I think that that kept me on the edge of my seat. And it was sort of, you know, like, just hoping that they'll sort of get through even though I know they're doing something wrong. I didn't want to it's like when you're rooting for the villain, because they do it with so much planning so much precision, my God, it's just, I think they're one of the most, you know, intelligent or talented, you know, people out there, but you know, they use it, as they say they use it for for different purposes. But

Tarun Mehrishi  31:39

for me, this is also interesting, right? The use of the word villain is also a question of what lens one is wearing. Yeah, so yeah, a villain to us at that point of time is definitely a hero to the organizations they're working for. And likewise, right, many people would argue whether our superstar the chief of intelligence was actually a hero, or actually a villain. And it's been nice to leave that debate open ended for those that do want to have it.

Michelle D'costa  32:04

Yeah. Do you know what this reminds me of? We recently interviewed Mr. Hussein Sethi for his latest book, The row agent Lima, and that has a very similar similar pattern when one day this this guide, Lucky wished he's, you know, he's an ordinary guy, you know, everyone loves him. And he's like the national hero, blah, blah, blah. And next day, he's actually convicted. He's, he's been the police, and he's the bad guy

Tarun Mehrishi  32:30

is convicted of that murder, because they find the holster next to the dead body. Right? Yes. Lucky, I believe lucky. We've spent a lot of time in jail as well, despite being as decorated as knowing

Michelle D'costa  32:40

exactly. And what happens in the book is, you know, he keeps a suspense router, you're wondering, Is he the same guy? Is it all the same guy? Is he someone else? There is? I mean, I think this genre is very interesting. You

Tarun Mehrishi  32:52

know, one of one of the feedbacks I did get from some of the guys I spoke to was that it's, it's quite schizophrenic in the way some of the spies have to live. You are, you know, look at Rosie, for example, right? She does need to live the wife, the life of a wife married to army officer as well, in addition to doing what she's supposed to do, and that must be really, really hard to do right to to actually have two lives playing out in your head, and, and turning one off and turning the other on when required. To me that sounds absolutely frightening. Why not to do that one group absolutely bonkers. And a lot of these spies working, you know, deep cover undercover. Absolutely. Scary, right? You could disappear. And nobody would ever know that you had just simply disappeared. So there are some stories to be told there. What was the beautiful line? Or this guy said? Yeah, so So at the Papa Literature Festival recently, somebody had said it quite nicely. And because Souza had said this many, many interviews ago, that the best buys are actually the ones you've never heard of. So it makes life quite difficult for an author to then find those stories, and try and tell them. The other thing that intelligence they point out to me was you got to be very careful. If you're using stories that might be even remotely true. You got to be very careful because you just don't know when you're saying something that might land somebody you don't know You know nothing about you don't know anything about the operation but land them in trouble. So to their credit, and to my difficulty and displeasure, even after retirement, a lot of them will say nothing about the operations right. They leave you very broad hints point you in directions you may want to look at, but they will refuse to talk about operations they've been part of which is incredible, even after retirement. That's that's quite incredible. How disciplined that is.

Michelle D'costa  34:40

Yeah, yeah, no, this just you know, the complexity of being a spy. I mean, yes, you're using your intelligence. Yes, it's, you know, I'm trying to do exciting and all of that, but at the end of the day, you're not you're not able to be yourself, right? You're having different identities all the time. And I think not just with spies, so like see, for example, there are journalists Right, we'll go under cover to cover certain stories, for example, Tara Kaushal, she went in the form of her, I think, a film director, and she went to this village, and she sort of, you know, interviewed these people. And then she published his book, why men rape, and it was, it was so scary imagining her, you know, in close proximity with these men. And imagine if she had sort of reveal her identity that is a journalist who's got to, you know, capture these stories. And then there's also Sreenath Rao, who wrote the story of, you know, baby batanga, the drag queen. And again, he had to go undercover. So I'm curious, that on, you know, did you approach these these, you know, personnel, telling them that you want to write a book, you know, or or did you sort of, sort of just ask them for information, you know, like a friend? Because I do think that if yes, you're you might tell them that you're documenting it that they might, you know, hesitate I wanted, what was your process, like, like to, you know, to get information from them.

Tarun Mehrishi  35:52

So the first thing that I sort of gathered now is that there's been a change, people are happy to say that they work for various parts of Indian intelligence now, but the generation or maybe a couple of generations preceding the current one, they never ever said the word for, or IB, or dri or whatever else it was, they always worked for the cabinet Secretariat or rushed over the Baba and or something as vague as they could make it to be. So one, it was not not not impossible, but not particularly easy to find the right people to speak to. And I was very upfront about it, right? I actually took a part of my manuscript saying, Look, this is what I'm writing. This is the fictionalized version of this real event. And I'm only looking for a perspective from the spy world. I don't want you to comment on any live operations, nothing of that sort. Just whether this reads as realistic, or whether it sounds too jingoistic whether it sounds too unrealistic, too impractical, just sort of that perspective, which they're happy to share. It compromises nothing so that they're happy to share.

Michelle D'costa  37:00

Yeah, I think that's really smart. Because you do nowadays, you do have sensitivity readers, you know, anyway, so I think they definitely did help with beta reading and telling you whether they were logical, you know, so. So just for context for our listeners, that don't, because we have different intellect. So many parties involved in this book in sort of getting, you know, this artwork, because there's a secret there, which you have planted very well, which is fictionalized. So there is ra, ra W, then there's a CI, and then there's the ISI right? Could you tell us, you know, what are these three units? Sort of, in very, very simple terms? And what role do they actually play in in cases like this, which, which are like high stakes, which sort of involve multiple countries, and which sort of involved, you know, like the national security.

Tarun Mehrishi  37:46

This is this other external intelligence arms of the three countries. So it's actually sort of on them to know if there are any threats outside their respective country's borders, which threatens the interests of that country. And those threats are not always necessarily armed conflicts or or weapons, they could very well be simpler stuff, right? Stolen secrets, are compromised nuclear scientist, a spy within the higher echelons of government or a political party. These are all things that could seriously compromise what one is trying to achieve as a country. So I'd say it's as broad as that. The CIA has a nasty reputation, highlighted enough videos and books and movies about how they have actually worked very hard, sometimes against political mandates to further what they believe are America's interests. They've been accused of enough assassinations across the world of appending, entire governments, all sorts of stuff. The ISI. The isi in this country, of course, has a really nasty reputation. And the ties back to everybody who has caused so much heartbreak in this country to every terror organization. I don't know how competent the ISI actually is. But given that we've been having this proxy war for the past 60 or 70 years, presumably, they're somewhat competent, that they can keep at it for this long. And the RNA W has been the most interesting one, in a sense, right there was only founded after the war with China. Because that was a complete failure of intelligence. At least it's been argued that it was a complete failure of intelligence, we really misread that situation. And since they've been involved in everything that this country has done outside its borders, some have accused also being involved with things that we've done inside the country's borders mistakes, which specifically shouldn't be but you know, whether it's it's Bangladesh, whether it's the was with Pakistan, or whether it's our nuclear program, they're all seems to have had a hand in everything. And I'm watching this entire space now with a lot of interest. Because I'm listening to what the Canadians are saying about our involvement in deaths in that country about what the Americans are saying and what the world at large is hinting at. And I'm curious whether it is true, whether the Royals actually expanded its mandate to something like that. Whether it is behaving in a sense, like the Mossad did after Munich, and hunting down the people that cost around the country. I think it'd be an interesting story. I don't know if it's true or not true. But I think it's an interesting story nevertheless, and a story worth writing. In fact, one that I will write Oh,

Michelle D'costa  40:34

wow, really excited to read that. But yeah, definitely. I mean, this is something that that is very secretive, there's a lot of mystery around it, which definitely adds, adds, you know, more intrigue to it in general, or when I'm sure that you know, researching on it, and sort of digging up these details will be even more fun. But I mean, of course, challenging. So, you know, now that, you know, we've covered you know, this the whole world of the book, your fascination with spy thrillers, I want to know, your top two spy thrillers that you think can be relayed, anytime, you know, or even it could be movies, or you know, rewatched any time and what did you actually love about them?

Tarun Mehrishi  41:22

the two movies that popped into my head immediately are clear and present danger, which I thought was fab, when I watched it. The other one that pops into my head, we might not necessarily be in this genre was The Hunt for Red October. And the way that entire movie was filmed and presented. Also an interesting story. I know there was an element of, of espionage and spying and and sort of, what's the word for it? Yeah. But moving across from one one country to the other state word called slipping my mind now. But those are two that immediately popped into my head, the the Indian author that I really want to speak about who's been doing a remarkable job, in my view, is the senior journalist, Mr. dookey person who's written some absolutely fabulous thrillers that are that are contemporary that are about India as it exists today. For example, I think his last book was one called those who wait, which does bring in a lot of, of the way it is today, in the context of espionage, and spying, and thrillers, and stuff like that, but I really liked the way he writes. Let me see, I'm gonna think about this a little bit more, and maybe come back in a couple of minutes with a couple more answers. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa  42:39

sure. I'm sure that you know, there are, there are many more, I was more looking for, you know, like, for example, say I'm a very visual person, if I see, you know, a movie and I really like a scene, that's something that stays with me and reports that again, and again, and when you show that in a spy thriller, there's there's something there's there's, you know, sort of these moments, there are these beats in the in the story, or in the film, which sort of make it really memorable. So I was, you know, sort of very curious about that. So let's say, you know, the first movie that you picked, I think you said clear and

Tarun Mehrishi  43:10

present danger, which is why so why is

Michelle D'costa  43:13

that a favorite for you? I mean, like especially let's let's analyze it, like, you know, from a spy thriller angle. Why did you like, and

Tarun Mehrishi  43:19

I'll be honest, I've named the movie. And now I'm struggling to remember all of the scenes, but I remember parts of it. Right, I think that is also set in the context of a potential nuclear war. In fact, between between, of course America and, and Russia, and the role that one or two men are playing in stopping that from happening. I think within that context, they'd also weave together the potential assassination of the President or maybe they did actually assassinate the President or trying to assassinate him, and how a CIA operative is actually saving the day for the entire world. The other one, that I was talking about The Hunt for Red October, for the longest time that submarine is hunted, viciously, to try and get it to surface because nobody can actually be told that they are trying to defect to America. So look at it from an American sailors perspective or a commanders perspective, they know that this Russian sub is in their waters and and sort of headed towards them they have no idea that is coming to them for a friendly purpose. And what that what sort of course that is awesome. So I think that's lovely that the that the and I believe that's a true story as well that the gentleman actually did defect with the entire submarine, which is incredible. That's that's the one I remember the most Sean Connery Of course, as the Russian commander did a fabulous job.

Michelle D'costa  44:50

Yeah, I think the way you the way sort of described you know, the crux of it and what you know, sort of stands apart. I feel every spy thriller is treated differently. Then as you said, it's sort of in in the writing in the acting, it's in the setting. It's everything to do with that. So now that you know we've sort of covered all like I would say the setting the genre, everything. Finally, I want to know out of all the characters in the book, right, which was your favorite to cricket, and one.

Tarun Mehrishi  45:22

Okay, so the strongest character, my favorite in this book is certainly Amitabh and Amita. If if, if I'm able to pull it off, should be a central character in many more books, right, a 40 year career means there are hundreds of stories that we can spin off from a character like that. The book that I'm thinking about writing, in fact, should also have a report play a key role. If he does chief of intelligence, and the ROI is up to something some shenanigans like this, he will definitely have a key role to play in, in making inputs, if nothing else into what the strategy should be. But to my mind, he is the most realistic character in the book as well. Because life is not black and white, it's not for any of us. And it's certainly not black and white in the world of spies. So, so like it is for them, it's a shade of gray, and he is as gray as can be. And you know, you could you could vilify him, you could call him a hero. it all hinges at the end of that book on one decision that he makes. But likewise, I could have ended the book on another node where he concedes what he needs to, because he needs to protect himself or he sacrifices, you know, 30 lives. Because that in the long term furthers India's interests and the definition of whether he was a hero might have changed dramatically, by something as simple as that. So I actually imagined for spies, there is never going to be a question of being a hero, at the end of it, you are going to die a villain or you are going to be unknown, which is a sad end to a illustrious and hardworking career, in a sense.

Michelle D'costa  47:10

Yeah, it's kind of you know, this unfortunate fate I will take because he, at the end of the day, I was just thinking about, you know, most of the writers we interview and all of that, so you see writing a book or for example, like, you know, promoting it, talking about it. It's it also gives you a sense of validation, right? Like you're known, you're known for certain things and imagine spies, when they do so much work, and then you're not you're not known for what you do, I think, I think it's really heartbreaking. But they do know what they're getting into. When they when they sort of sign up. For such

Tarun Mehrishi  47:40

I wonder, I wonder if that's true. You know, you think you know what you're getting into, but it must be difficult. No matter what the training the first time you experience being completely alone on your own. Just imagine being semeth in Pakistan, you know, no matter how much you prepare, surely you cannot be prepared for something like that. It was scary. Really. Yeah, it's really frightening.

Michelle D'costa  48:05

You know, theory versus practical, you know, you envision like, like theory or something else, and the practical is, is a whole different

Tarun Mehrishi  48:12

and I'm with the added benefit of real life consequences on failing that practical.

Michelle D'costa  48:18

Yeah, it is scary. Absolutely. Okay, so, now that we've covered, you know, everything about the book, don't we have come to the second section of the podcast, which is a fun quiz. Okay. I will be giving you three options. You have to pick one. And oh, thinking aloud, okay. Okay, good. Okay. If you had to steal a painting from a museum, which would it be? Oh, okay, that's not good. Me. I'm giving you three machines it start on the it's not okay. Okay, the Starry Night. Be the Last Supper. See girl with a pearl earring.

Tarun Mehrishi  48:55

So I don't know the third painting at all. I'm going to go with the

Michelle D'costa  49:00

Okay, the last up. All right. If you could be part of one organization, which one would you pick? A isI B, CBI C or Aw?

Tarun Mehrishi  49:10

Or a W for sure. Okay,

Michelle D'costa  49:13

if you had to use one art supply to defend yourself against a criminal what would it be? A watercolors be oil paint see crayons

Tarun Mehrishi  49:25

the oil paint to blind the guys

Michelle D'costa  49:27

nice okay. If you had to visit one place for the artwork, what would it be? A Russia be Paris see London.

Tarun Mehrishi  49:39

I want to say I say to me I believe there'll be a lot more good stuff then then there is in Paris. I know the loser big deal but I really like to go to Russia and see what's there as well.

Michelle D'costa  49:46

Oh, nice. Yes. Okay. You are this last one. You are in an art gallery and you notice a theft happening in front of you. What would you do? A call your best friend. Be alert the guard see can Aren't the thief and be an accomplice

Tarun Mehrishi  50:03

sounds the most interesting of the Lord. But what I really want to do is sit back and take note of how they're pulling it off.

Michelle D'costa  50:09

Yes. Okay. All right. So this brings us to the last round of the interview. It's a rapid fire round. So you know, uncertain one word or one sentence. Quick out. One reader's comment that has stayed with you

Tarun Mehrishi  50:29

the one that's really stayed with me is poorly written. Easy language. Confused plot?

Michelle D'costa  50:45

Oh, my God. Okay. I think one can never forget that line. But yeah, new in the world of trolls. You know, that's something that you can, you can easily. Okay. Well, that hurt. I know. I know what I mean. I think that's that's sort of like, you know, like, you say everything has pros and cons. It's The con of living in the social media easily accessible board, and we know that that's not true. So, anyway, okay, one character from your book that you'd like to have lunch with?

Tarun Mehrishi  51:15

Me? repeatedly.

Michelle D'costa  51:18

All right, one destination that you'd like to set a thriller in? Luxury. Okay, one word to describe your writing process.

51:30

chaotic. Okay,

Michelle D'costa  51:33

where do you write?

Tarun Mehrishi  51:38

Well, wherever, wherever I feel like writing at that point of time, to be honest.

Michelle D'costa  51:42

I think this is the best answer. Okay, and what is your next book? Or what are you working on now?

Tarun Mehrishi  51:49

So I'm working on two books at the moment. One is in collaboration with somebody else. And the third, which I've just started thinking through is the story about these allegations being leveled against the IDW. About assassinations across the world.

Michelle D'costa  52:04

Wow. So there are two books. Okay. All right. That's, that's really exciting. I do hope that they will be as entertaining or even better than this book, and I do hope to see Amitabh return. In the other books, it was a lot of fun, you know, discussing the whole spy thriller genre. You know, why it works, what are the sort of techniques you can use, you know, art highs, I think we could go on and on. So thank you so much for your time that are it was absolutely entertaining, and I'm looking forward to seeing it on the screen.

Tarun Mehrishi  52:33

Thank you so much, Michelle. That was a lot of fun. I look forward to speaking again soon hopefully.