6.8 Amit & Shantanu: Modern Lessons From Ancient Epics

Find out what centuries-old epics have to offer in the modern era!

In this episode, Michelle sits down with Amit Majmudar and Shantanu Gupta to discuss all things mythology. Amit talks about his book, 'The Book of Vows', which is a retelling of the Mahabharata through all the vows that took place in the epic, sprinkled with his own insights on ethics and values. Shantanu's 'Teachings from the Ramayana' is a handy book of 25 case studies for families to navigate daily life challenges through crosswords and reflective exercises.  

In this exclusive series in partnership with Penguin Random House India, we will shine a spotlight on two compelling contemporary voices each month, individuals who are reshaping the landscape of Indian literature. 

Amit and Shantanu discuss the need for contemporary retellings, the treasure-trove of invaluable lessons they contain, and lesser-known versions that will change the way you view the epics!

Tune in!

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Shantanu Gupta, Amit Majmudar, Michelle D'costa

Michelle D'costa  00:01

Hi, everyone. Welcome back. I'm Michelle, your host. And most of you might know, by now that I've been raised Catholic. So, you know, I might know a thing or two about the Bible. You know, I read the children's illustrated version as a child and growing up, obviously, you know, I've read the updated version for adults, but what I wasn't really familiar with was the Hindu epics, that is the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, and which is why, you know, I'm really excited to do this episode today. I'm very excited. You know, as we'll be immersed in the words of both of these epics with none other than our with Majumder and Chandragupta. While Ahmed merchandise book book of vows, it's actually first in a trilogy, and it's a retelling of the Mahabharata, you know, in its own way. I mean, the crux of the Mahabharata is it's literally about a war between the Pandavas and the caravans, right. But what he does really well in this book is that he actually focuses on these vows, right, as he puts it, you could break a wall, but you couldn't unsee it, right, because it focuses on this time, this particular time in the universe where you know, the gods, your descendants, every one would compare what you said to what you did imagine a world like that, right. And what I found interesting is that he's provided sequences or summaries at the beginning of each of these chapters, which for a person like me was really super useful, because I do not have much context about it right. And on the other hand, we have Chandra Gupta, who's written the book teachings from the ramen, right? And now we all know that the Rama is actually the epic of 24,000 shlokas or verses right, it actually tells the story of ROM, but in his book, what Shantanu does really well is that he has picked 25 stories or case studies with just focus on family life. And that's why I was really interested in because, you know, all of you listeners know that I'm really drawn to family dramas, especially because of the power dynamics, you know, that plays around with different family members. So what he's done is he's actually made the book very interactive. He's added crossword puzzles, reflective exercises so that people can actually have conversations that matter, you know, while having breakfast, lunch or dinner, right? Like how many of us still have conversations or having meals? So let's dive into these epics and find out from these both authors how they've managed to take these ancient texts and make them very contemporary. Welcome, Ahmed, and Chandra.

Amit Majmudar  02:58

Hi, thank you for having us.

Shantanu Gupta  03:00

Thank you, Michelle. Thank you for having us.

Michelle D'costa  03:02

So we want to start off with and shot through both of you. You all have very different educational backgrounds, right? I mean, you've done nuclear medicine. You're a diagnostic radiologist. And you actually practice in Ohio, right, which is where you're based out of Shanter, on the other hand, you have degrees in management, engineering, governance, you're also a political analyst. Right? And as if all of this wasn't interesting enough, both of you are very clearly passionate about mythology. Right. And Ahmet, you've also written a verse translation of the Bhagavad Gita, called the gods song before Shantanu. You know, you're the founder of the Ramayana school which actually dives into the stories and where you, you know, sort of dissect the stories and sort of impart these lessons to different people, be it families, educators, entrepreneurs, Sunoco, both of you I want to know where did this passion for you know, recording or analyzing or retelling? These epics actually start? Okay,

Shantanu Gupta  04:00

I'll go first. I think first, you use the word mythology, I want to present my my, my reservation to that word, because in Indian knowledge system, Mahabharata and Ramayana, both are part of at HERSA and not only ramen, it's Valmiki Ramayana and where there were some are not other versions of Mahabharata or other versions or Roman right. So all the stories are Indian knowledge system, a largely bagged et has not got Puranas mythology is a is a Western term, which is like kind of a it's a myth, right? It's not historical, you can put a date to it, these characters might be fictional. So that's why I normally stay away from that word, and I call it only Amazon they put your book into metrologic category and I don't have a half done have to change the category. So they're only I use the word so that's what how I how I started my journey is I'm homeschooling my kids. I have a five year old and a 10 year old so the my 10 year old when he was around six ish, he came to me with a question that after ra Mr. Shri Rama breaks the Dhanush right during the Sita swimmer, but he should have showed up. Right when Lord Krishna shows up he's also one of the avatars of Vishnu. He's the sixth of Daraa, Vishnu and Shri Rama the Seventh Doctor Vishnu. So the question of my son was that how come both of ours can exist together? But his idea was linear that one of that was go back under the radar will come? Right. Let's say in Marva, Krishna has come was the head of that right. I also did not have a very clear answer. So I gave him some answer just to satisfy his curiosity. And during the same time, almost the same time I was writing the biography of Yogi ethanol because I'm a political writer. That's what I do. Right. So I was traveling from Lucknow to Gorakhpur very often go to put is the place where you get to does his work the time now he's in Lucknow. So in between comes out there. And my driver and and being being a very practicing Hindu, this is the first time I was seeing out there I'm six years back though, fortunately, I was a part of the brand to this event. So I went out there talk to a lot of scholars and then I started engaging in Ramayana, like real profoundly with the traditional scholars and modern scholars started reading the verses shlokas as we call it, in Valmiki Ramayana, the original source from Gita press, Gorakhpur, and various other commentaries. And then I realize that Ramayana, it's it's a huge text. And Mahabharata is even bigger text is like almost four times of Ramayana. It's like a modern chat. GPT, right, you send a query to Ramayana, and Ramana will give you an answer. And my query was that how can I contextualized Ramayana for my son? That was a very simple, basic selfish query? Right? I see him engaged in a lot of his kind of books, like, how can I make it interesting for him? And also, while I'm reading him, what can I take it? Like from my life or my profession? What can I take it from Romana, and from there around six years back, the journey started? And then I send the query life lessons, right? If you send a different query, if you send, what are the governance lessons, you can get it if you say, what are the entrepreneurship lessons, you can get it, and there will be my sequels for my books, right? So that's how my journey started. So that as you rightly said, can I make my book as an appetizer for people to read the original version, I always say people should read the original text, which is the wider workone food Harnish look as if you read 1010 shlokas a day, they'll take seven, eight years, right? And 10 sugars, it take you at least one hour, the one hour a day is recorded discipline in itself. So yeah, that's how my journey started to simplify, to bring it to breakfast table to bring it to dinner table. Yeah. And how can my son understand it? So yeah, now it came as a book.

Amit Majmudar  07:35

Wow, that's an it's an excellent story and excellent way of approaching it. And, you know, relative to what you were mentioning about the word mythology, in English, the interesting thing about myth and mythos mythology in English is that it has, you know, two ways in which it's used, one of the ways is to say, oh, you know, that's a myth. It's falsehood. Basically, it's it's made up, it's fictional, or it's airy fairy people, we're coming up with it out of nothing. And but there's another way in which the word mythology is used. And if you look at the way Joseph Campbell talks about mythology, the way you if you look at some of the most serious students of, of that of that way of knowledge, that form of knowledge, that way of thinking, that way of encoding knowledge, and encoding truth, in a way that binds an entire civilization for hundreds for hundreds of years, 1000s of years. It's actually that way, when you use it that way, it's a term of respect and a term of mystery and profound power. And one of the one of the very interesting things that I found is that mythology, mythological epics of this nature, the it'll be one that story is it remains but he can spawn all sorts of books. So shot in his books, where he's talking about, you know, I give it a query and I can eventually you can write a whole book about a whole book of expository prose on governance, as you said, you know, this that the other different topics. One poetic epic, one poem written 3000 years ago, can to this day spawn entire nonfiction books that end up getting sold in bookstores around the country. That's an amazing and mysterious process. Because it's because those books that are then derived from the myth and derive from the original poem, nobody writes books about those. Right? That's it but but yet the myth continues to generate all this. One of the other things that it generates are retellings. So as you said, Valmiki Rama is the original rahmer. There are subsequently so many Romans So many different tellings, the Mavado one of the things that is less known is that these things also produced entire dramas, meaning plays dramatic tradition, Basha Gali Das, and a bunch of other playwrights who are lost to history. And the Greek true Judeans did the same with home. But we have more texts. And those texts are more highly regarded in the European or classical tradition, then, those dramatic texts are within the Indian tradition for cultural reasons or who knows why. And that's another way in which the myths are just endlessly generative. And for me personally, and I hate to get mystical or weird about it, I kind of feel like I have a past life connection to this stuff. And I always have, I've always felt like with, I always felt a strange familiarity with it, I felt a strange sense of this is where I belong, this is where I come from, and this is where I belong. And the book of vows, for example, the whole trilogy came very, very easily, very, very quickly. It was COVID. Time. And I And interestingly enough, when it comes to mythology in the Gita, and everything, I've been doing that for years, ever since I was a teenager, I've been into it, but I had always thought to myself, What am I sure, am I ever going to tackle the mom how to what am I going to do that? And it was it took COVID to scare me, and basically say, I thought to myself, you know, I was always putting it off. But then I thought, you know, people are dying, and who knows, I could get hit right. And I have limited time on Earth. And I need to do this now. And so the whole trilogy was written, you know, first page to last page, you know, you know, I guess, you know, frenzy of sorts, during COVID. And, and, and it's a lot of pages, but it took a lot less time than you would imagine. Because a I was driven as like I had a gun to my head, had a microbiological gun to my head. And so and I just felt like I was fulfilling some fundamental aspect of why I was born, when and when I engaged in this epic and retold it for modern audiences in a way that was very faithful to the original. Because one of the other things I have noticed is that, and myths are always in evolution. And people always change little things about the myth. Sometimes though, more in more modern times, they drastically alter the the mythology and drastically alter the story to make revered figures venal, and to make traditionally criticized figures heroic, that's something that's typically done, I didn't want to do that I wanted to get back to the source. And I wanted to create a work that people could read, in which the same old story, quote, unquote, would be alive and vivid. And that's what I hope to have done with the book of vows. And it's in the two remaining volumes of the trilogy.

Michelle D'costa  13:11

Wow. Yeah, I think I think just listening to both of your, you know, processes, just sort of how did this start? I think, you know, one common thing that I've seen is that it's a calling, right with we are seem to be just naturally drawn to this theme, or to these epics, and it's sort of like you said, you know, it doesn't feel like it's a lot of words, it doesn't feel like you've done a lot, because I think this is something that, you know, it's sort of like you had to tell the story. That's something that's, that's really common with both of you. And so, this really brings me to my next question, which is that see, you know, you know, we have seen so many retellings in in recent times, right? So for example, when you know, Chitra, Divakaruni, she's doing it all them haha, through the eyes of the women, right, for example, then we've also spoken to Ashok banker, who's explored love stories from the Mahabharata. Because obviously, Mahabharata is known for war, and fights and all of that. And then, you know, you take a different angle to that. And also, we recently spoke to worship Regina, who's, you know, told the story of Barak, who's roms brother, where, you know, these Bobby's is underrated, or sort of hidden characters, you know, when these epics are given Live, which also sort of goes into fantasy, a bit, right. So now you have this whole genre in India, which is sort of I would say, booming. And there's also sort of this this, you know, scare or fear of saturation, right? Because that's what happens in a genre when you have so much coming out of it, which is why I want to know, you know, did you all sort of worry that this book will sort of get lost more than the number of books that are coming out right now, or what, according to you, is the USP of your book, and that's something that may not you know, would have been sort of apparent while you were writing a while you sort of set out to write, but even let's say now that the book has written and it's gone out into the world, is that something you think about?

Shantanu Gupta  14:57

I think you write the UN per Ramayana Mahabharata and many other I'll still want to use the word at Hassan Purana. There are multiple retellings right. And there were reasons for retelling. So let's say for Valmiki Ramayana Valmiki. Rishi Valmiki was contemporary of Lord ROM. Right he could like like I'm a biographer of Yogi Adityanath. He's a biographer of Rama. He can talk to rom he has a direct source Mata Sita, Mata Sita was living in volume kgs ashram. So he's a direct source, he can talk to a lot of sages, a lot of Kings a lot of people around, right so he's a first hand account, so to say, right, and he was writing about King, a good king, who was back from those 14 years have one of us have anxiety, right? He's back already. He's talking narak money. And he's talking to nodded money telling that I want to write something which which which many generation can remember, and can live a very meaningful life of Dharma Artha Kama Moksha can have some role model. He said, Why don't you look upon that that King Rama and so while he was in Cancun of today, which is better, which is like in today's modern travel four or five hours travel from idea, right, so it's like a nearby King. What says let's see, the other very famous Ramayana is Tulsi das Rahman Sharath. Manas, right, which is written almost just 500 years back when Akbar the Mughal King was rolling, rolling, rolling India, and Rama was already established as a god in Indian society. So Tutsi Das was writing about a God Rama versus Valmiki was writing about a very good king Amara, the Porsche Club, which is a huge difference of your Wantage point, right? Whom are you writing about? Let's say, let's say I wrote him or yoga, it's like a political biography, after 500 years, who knows the people say okay, you're gonna lose a god right. And if someone someone do that retelling will be very, very different right. And also, also the language language also carries a lot of weight right. So Valmiki Ramayana is written in Sanskrit that was the order of language of the day and the two very high Sanskrit right at very high Sanskrit and understood Chanda versus Tulsi Rahman, which is written over the why of the because Sanskrit got lost by them a lot of Brahmins not a lot of Brahmins, a lot of priests have been killed by the Islamic invaders. So and the Sanskrit retelling would not would not have worked so our the which is a local dialect, I should not call it a dialect a lot of people may not like to hear it it's a it's a form it's a it's a language which is very close to Hindi, but spoken in eastern part of Uttar Pradesh now. So toolsy this does was existing in today's chapter code today's Banaras today's Iota right so he took the language of that area and then return in other the right so I think this is how the context chain and he is done. That's why RAM Charit Manas is a quite a glorification of Rama versus volunteer a man has a very practical if I can use the word boring and filled with a lot of details right which will detail why why I need so many details right about dramas father and his father and his father and his father and almost 64 people before Rama, Tilly Schumacher, right? I don't need so much detail. Let's say if I am talking about Harry Potter, I know his father. I know maybe his grandfather, but I don't know is like his 10th and 20th Grandfather, right? So because it's a documentation Valmiki is documenting grandma's life like a meticulous historian versus Tulsi, who is writing to recontextualize Rama in the society where the legend of Rama is kind of dying, right? So that's why I think every generation need the retelling of the story in their context in their pains in their happiness is right because happiness of today and the pains of today and the challenges today are very different every 100 years or even every generation. So that's why they retelling will retelling will never stop and then comes a point of view right I just say the point of view of Rama there are there are Ramayana written with the pointing of Ravana where as you said with Martha's point of view, where you can write from the KKs point of view a lot of people give the credo of whole Ramayana to kaigi if KK would not have given that one verse or exile, then whole thing would not have happened right. So you can take a point of view, but again you have to go back that did is Valmiki giving some hint or not right. So many many many points when even in Valmiki Ramayana itself as I told you the study you can make many many queries. You will be surprised to know a lot of people and done a research on fauna and flora. Which Rama encounter during the 14 years because he's passing through today's Uttar Pradesh today's chatters GERD today's Madhya Pradesh, today's Jharkhand, today's Maharashtra invite Mata Sita was kidnapped in Maharashtra and NAS near Nasik. Then today's Karnataka ArtPlace, Tamil Nadu and he's he Lakshman. Whenever Sita was around, they're talking about whatever vegetation they're seeing what kind of animal is seeing, and a lot of PhD scholars have been PhD. That is the vegetation of that time matching today. Right? And it's matching in most of the cases, right in those areas. Right. So you can do multiple kinds of queries to Ramayana and multiple kind of as a point of views right. So that's I'm saying retelling has a scope. If you can find your niche but you should know water water is has already been written so that you can you can know what is already not written. Yeah.

Michelle D'costa  20:08

And just to add to that, which is why I think, you know, like if we talk of the USP of your book, which is why you focus just on family life ranges,

Shantanu Gupta  20:15

probably right right now and my sequels maybe I'll say what an entrepreneur can see into it, what a politician can see into it. So, I will go like this construct wise family is a construct, being entrepreneur is a construct, right? So with with different roles, because we all play different roles. I'm a father, I'm a husband, I'm a brother, I'm a son, I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a colleague. So with different roles, can I can I use Ramana as my decision making framework, right? Can I learn from Rama and Dashrath and Vanaras and Ravana? Maybe we can learn from Robin also what not to do. Right? So yeah, that was my take.

Amit Majmudar  20:53

Oh, yeah. And so it's, it delights me that you mentioned Tulsidas, because I'm actually translating the soonercon into rhyme rhymed verse right now. And that's one of my projects that I have ongoing. And I, I agree with you about your contrast between Tulsidas and Valmiki. When it's very interesting also because at that point, Sita MATA is also divine. And so in dulci, does. Sita it's not Sita, who's actually abducted he puts, Sita is placed for safekeeping inside Agni. And then it's a maya Sita, like my receita are illusory Sita, who is abducted and taken to Lanka. So it's not really new, because she's not she's inviolable. But what's interesting is that 400 years before that, when Compton writes his Tamil version of the Ramayana, there already Sita is still on inviolable, she mustn't be touched. And so Rahman, in that version has a curse on him, where he has to, he can't touch a woman against her will. So he has to dig up the Earth beneath her. And he takes the Earth, he takes the ground that she's on, and she's almost like trapped on this island of Earth, because he's so strong, he lifts up that island, and he takes that island to Ilonka. That that chunk of earth that she's standing on, and those are different ways in which poets have navigated the sanctity of the growing sanctity of Rama and Sita over the centuries, which Valmiki didn't have that problem, as Shanna mentioned, because we all make was written was riding so long ago, and in fact, in the Yukon, there's probably one of my favorite scenes in the, in the realm Island. Environment, his armor, where it's at the end, and and, you know, Rama has sort of berated you know, Sita after he is, you know, liberated her now he he'd be he'd be rates her and Brahma and the gods he's also everyone around him is horrified. Alright, so it's not as though society was misogynistic then or anything like that. Rama is acting completely out of character. He's, he's got some sort of, you know, PTSD sort of thing going on. He's, he's out of character. He's, he's out of his, you know, normal self because all through the rest of the epic he's been weeping with, with with just, you know, anguish that's that he doesn't have Sita with him. At that moment, Brahma comes and Brahma berates him as well and he says, well, don't you know who you are. And Rama says, I believe I'm Prince Rama, son of King Dasha, that you tell me who I am. And that's when Brahma tells him that he is the Avatar of Vishnu in that he has this great, great figure, the divine figure, an incarnation of Vishnu. So Rama has lived the entirety of the Ramayana, with the belief that he was a human being, and he has experienced that anguish just as a human being would, he's experienced the pain of separation from his wife just as a human being would. And Michelle, you'll realize you'll recognize this from the story of Jesus, right? Because Jesus was, you know, the son of Son of man, right? He was a son, he experienced the suffering on the cross, as a human being that pain was real, right? And the same way ROM was pain and vomiting phenomenon is real. Because he doesn't know who you are, he has no idea. And it's not until the end until he has sort of transgressed against Sita that he is then berate, he's told who he is in the, in the form of, you know, being berated about it by the gods by Brahma by his creator. And, and so, as far as retellings are concerned I'm Shannon who's after absolutely right. And language is one of the main things and that's the language it to me is is central because linguistic drift happens, it happens to in all societies. India is unique in that Sanskrit. It's true many people were killed and a lot of destruction happened. But there was a core of people who preserved not just the knowledge of Sanskrit, but Vedic Sanskrit, with intricate intonations, right, you can't just recite a Vedic shloka. I've done some online classes to try and get an a handle on how that's done. It's an intricate art, you have to lengthen certain syllables, you can lilt with certain syllables. It's not something that you can just walk in and do. And so I kind of attempted this a little bit. And I was like, this is above my paygrade. I'm going to stick to I'm going to stick to literature. But I will tell you that it language is huge, because linguistic drift happens languages pass away vernaculars form this happened in the West, it happens in the east, it happens everywhere. And those see that's one of his reasons for writing was to bring it back to the people bring it back to the people. And if you look at how the the soonercon or the RAM Charit, Manas sounds, it's very, very tightly rind. It's tightly rhymed, you can sing it. The language is actually very simple. And there isn't that much detail, because he's keeping that story humming. All right, he's keeping that story going along. And he'll dilate meaning he'll he'll kind of stretch out the story of for a bit and give you more verses when he wants to just sing some praises of Rama, where he sing some praises of Sita and then you'll go back. And then if you look closely, and because I read vomica on my own and started translating those he does so close to one another. There are times where you know Valmiki will devote an entire sonego to describing Ravana sleeping there among his wives with his TED his tattoos and his scars and his beautiful body because Robert was very handsome and he was very impressive guy. Those of us who will go through it in a line he'll have a line with and Robin was sleeping there. And then this happened and seven and and the charm is in the rhyme and the charm is in the speed and then little in the lilt and the jaunty Enos of it, and involve Mickey, the charm is in the intricacy and the charm is in the dialogues. The charm is in the monologues of people expressing their anguish and everything like that. And so, there's so many different ways even among the great retellings which tell the whole epic, there are drastic differences in the approach, right? So so many things that different different retailers navigate, and it's a beautiful tradition. And you can find something different in every last one every last retelling. Good.

Michelle D'costa  28:06

I know so so in your case cometh I'm very curious of how you picked the USP or the angle of Gauss. Especially how did that come?

Amit Majmudar  28:13

So, so very, almost without intending to the retelling my retelling naturally fell into three sections. Okay. And in that first section, that first volume, as I was retelling it, I became very, very aware of how many vowels were being taken and what massive effects these had. All right on the story. And as I kind of Natch, I told you, I wrote it very, very, very, in a state of kind of an intense concentration and intense excitement. When I finished the first volume, I realized that it basically began with Bheeshma. Isabel, right, which Vishwas bow was that I'm going to exclude myself from the, the, the inheritance of the throne, and I'm going to allow my father's remarriage with this fish, Fisher woman's daughter, to then establish the lineage for the throne of Huston Naboo. And I will devote myself to protecting that lineage. He takes this vow it gives him his name, because originally is developed and then he becomes Eagles patient of fearsome the you know, the four in honor of his vow. And then I kept the the entire story going in the first volume book of vows ends after immediately after the gambling the dice game, when the bond of us take these Vows as they're leaving on their exile. They say things like, I'm coming back and I'm coming back for you, you know, and I'm going to get you in this particular way. At some point in the future, and later on, that's exactly what happened. their vows, they say it, and then they do it. All right. And it's very gangster, it's very mafia, you know, I love it. It's like, it's like you did this to my wife. And now I'm going to do this to you. And they take these vows. And those vows, then determine the, the subsequent story of the of the epic. And so the final book, the third book is called The Book of killings. Yes. And that's exactly what they do. Because they tell you, they're going to kill them. And then as the book of vows, they take the book one in Book Three, they do really, it's

Michelle D'costa  30:34

yeah, it's exactly like the mafia Euro, like you said, reminds me of The Godfather. But you know, but Jokes apart. I think, you know, it's very interesting to see, I think, you know, what's common between both of you is that, yes, the Epic is there, it's been rerouted. It's been, you know, retold, there are so many versions. But yet again, there is a way to have a unique POV, right? In your case, John ruins the fact that, you know, as you said, it's a construct, and every time you can look at it in a different way, you will find something there, right. So be it family life, be it entrepreneurship. And in your case, amortizing the vows is something that really stood out to you, right. So now I really want to know, you know, what, are you both sort of, you know, I will say, like, you know, as people right, so now we know that your love the epics, right, it's something that you're a grown up with, you know, y'all as academics as as writers, it's something that has kept you going, but I want to know more about you as people, right? So for example, Ahmed, right promises or vows, you know, clearly takes take the forefront, you know, in the first book, so I was wondering, you know, do promises actually mean something to you in your life, you know, in a world where they say promises are meant to be broken? You know, could you please probably share an anecdote from your life, but this has played an important role in forming, how do you think about vowels and front row for you, you know, because your book highlights, you know, family life, parenting, all of that. And this is something you mentioned before that, you know, sort of your conversations with your son, when you were homeschooling. It's something that that sort of stood out to you. But I want to know, you know, especially when you sort of deal with families, like in your conversations with families, did you sort of see that there's a gap in in bonding between families, you know, maybe could you please share an anecdote? Yeah.

Shantanu Gupta  32:18

Okay, I'll go first. See, I want to quote two quick incidences from Ramona first and then I'll see how it's reminding me constantly. And so, first one is when Rama was about to be coordinated as a king tomorrow the next day and then the plotting happens between K K and mantra, right that Rama should be sent to exile for 14 years and Bharata his direct sun sorry her direct sun KK is direct sun should be made as a king right. Now, those are the two choices whether to agree to K K demands or not agree to K K's demand because the promise that He has given to k k is like a verbal promise right? And there was no no big testimony to it right? Maybe the charity or might have heard right but they both were injured in a charity or in a war. So that time he gave it wow right to K K. Now the hindsight is if he agree to the to the demands the two demands, he will lose his son for 14 years admin forever because in maybe he may die or Rama may die because jungle is like an unknown territory from demons to animals there's everything there right and also I will never lose such an amazing king I will he has a tradition of story when she's amazing story when she kings solar dynasty kings, so he has to hindsight, but the very famous tool see Ramana choppa is Raghu Kulu read the Sadar Chile AI prana Jaipur watch and Magi meaning this is a tradition my family I'm the descendant of a Shiva who too harsh turn to Algeria to Raghu I will die but I will not go bad on a promise right? And later while talking to Kaushalya he refers also that if I will not work on a promise who will my my subject will say oh my god, my king is going bad on promise who am i right? So in the morning I'll do a promise on the by by the evening I'll break so there will be hierarchy in the society. And in fact, that's the current colleague society is if you go to any courts of law, most of the cases are breach of agreements, check bounces which is nothing but a breach of agreement. We these are signed agreements Mind you, the the shop had a verbal commitment with KK that whenever you want like like a magnanimous King, you can ask for two vows right. And we are going back on the written agreements now and going to the court of law the modern customer right. Similarly. So now that Rama goes out, Rama goes out so how how the legend of promise was so important for summer like the shutdown. Now now cut the story short, Rama is in general now. Mark comes back he sees the whole Odessa dilapidated, right everybody's crying, no drama, they are no longer on their nose. He thought there and he goes in the hunt of them he find them in shooter code. Right? And they are the conversation with him part of the drama is a beautiful conversation right? I doubt we will ever see the conversation is colleague but of the same drama. Why don't you come back and become the king? Rama say no no Yuba, will you do go back and be the king? Right? Today's brother will say no, no, you get out I will be the CEO of the company, right? I don't need you. So his two brothers are convincing each other you should you should be the king. And Rama is saying now because there is dead. I cannot go back the go bad on the promise even more, because now we can. I cannot ask for an apology to the show. Earlier I could have okay, I'm not able to do the one mass Can I Can I take a shortcut to one mass is 14 is gonna make it to it. But I don't have anyone. So because he's dead. I'm all the more bound to the promise. And whenever I read all this, I find I get a little guilt, right? Like I'm writing all of this. I'm reading all this, but am I following in my personal life. And when I I also run a drama school I teach drama and to a lot of kids, almost like a couple of 1000 kids in multiple countries. And whenever I tell the story of Ramayana, not only these two ideas, multiple other ideas of morality. It challenges my own morality in life that am I following I'm preaching so much, but am I following its keep reminding its camera keep reminding me and the last four or five years my engagement in Ramayana? Certainly I feel made me a better person. Right? It keeps on reminding me keeps on reminding. So yeah, I think when you write it nudges you personally, multiple times multiple times. Yeah. So that's my, my engagement with the minor from last couple of years.

Amit Majmudar  36:38

So So yeah, and that's beautiful, beautifully spoken, I think that if you look on the first couple pages of the book of vows, you'll see me make a vow. Right? At the very beginning of the book of ours, I say I made him much, much more than I take a vow to do this to tell to tell this story. And so you have to be as good as your word, right? You have to be as good as your word. And that that point, you know, to be as good as your word. It has ramifications throughout your life, meaning that people can trust you, right? Because people then around someone get a sense of can that guy, if that guy says something, can I trust that it's going to happen? That will happen in a professional setting, it will also happen in an interpersonal setting. Right. And so I tried to, I've always tried to be a man of my word, I think in general, and definitely when it came to the book of vows, putting those that line at the very beginning, on the very first page, it was a signal not just to the reader. It was really, my my inner self, you know, it was it was me telling it was my inner self, ordering my outer self to do the work and put in the work and, and that inner controller bound me to it. And so, one way or another, I was going to accomplish that, and I am proud that I did. But above all proud that I kept the vow that I made to myself.

Michelle D'costa  38:17

Yeah, that's great. I really, I really liked the, you know, instances that you mentioned, also shone through, you know, especially the conversation between Goliath and round, which is like, oh, it wouldn't be logical in today's world, right? It reminded me sort of like, you know, in the Bible, they say, you know, if someone slaps you, you turn the other cheek, and we say, oh, but in today's world, who will do that? Right. So I think it's very interesting to see that though, these, you know, sort of these, you know, lessons in morality, ethics, all of that has been there throughout the years, I think what we also do is we sort of apply or tweak it based on you know, contemporary life, which is what both of you said, right, so, you know, I'm with you, you've kept the wall that you've given. So, you know, what I found really interesting, honestly, about both of your books is the presentation of the information, right? So of course, the content is something we know, we have read time. And again, these epics have been, you know, told, been taught in schools, they have been sort of, you know, discussed time and again, but it's about how you present them, right. So, um, within your case, you know, the fact that you sort of consciously decided to put sequences or summaries in the beginning, how did that come about? Is it is it probably because, you know, you're based out of the US and sort of, I mean, Judo sort of, like, did you envision a white reader or someone who's not as familiar with the epics, you know, to sort of breed that. And in Shannon's case, why did you sort of add these reflective exercises, you know, where there are blanks throughout in the book and where you've sort of made it, you know, like a very personal sort of guidebook for the reader. How did that come?

Shantanu Gupta  39:46

Up? So the structure of my book, as you said, in the starting Valmiki row minus 24,000, verses right, shlokas. I've condensed that chronologically though, from bellicon to Yukon, into 25 case studies, right. And Every chapter will start for the story of Ramayana. Right. So I'll start with Malecon where Rama is getting born right. And then I will try to pick up a conversation between two or multiple characters, which is conveying me something, right, which I can relate to any possible life situation in today's modern life and today's call you, right, that's the first telling of Ramayana story right? And based on Valmiki, Rama, and then I will write a lesson which I will derive. So let's say I will read any random. I'm holding the book, let's say rules are meant to be followed and flouting them can endanger your life. This is from Mata Sita, where she's flooding the Lakshman Rekha rule, right? And then, so this all right, a, like a life lesson, then I'll write a very practical family scenario, which I might have faced in my life, or one of my colleagues, one of our friends who is very relatable family scenario with some real names, right, have a family of Ahmed and his wife. And then I'll pose a question what will you do in such a family case they will arrive and then I will give the answer from Grandma's point of view there should this mind that if there should the Rama would have been there, how they would have solved or handled the situation? So these 25 case studies and trying to give them a decision framework that okay, in such multiple situations, right? How can you use apply Romana? And then I'm giving this reflective sections with, as you say, the empty lines, that Okay, why don't you bring this conversation on a breakfast table or a dinner table? And try to say, what if this would have happened? What if this would have happened? So that Ramayana, will become a case study? And, fortunately, blasphemy is not a problem in Hindu tradition, you can still challenge your gods, right? That's the whole topic of shastra, where you can question the existing thing. And you can say, what are the multiple layers that could have happened? So I think these reflective exercises are to instigate conversation the family, right? What can you derive from different conversations? That's the whole format of my book. And then after the end of each card, Balkan youth, can we have six cards, I have given a crossword puzzle, so that you can remember the names, the places the incidence, right, so I've made a cross six crossword puzzle throughout my work. So that's the format. And also, while doing Romana school, artwork, I got a lot of artwork done through professional artists. So I had a copyright to that, I produced the black and white version of all those artwork in the relevant section. So just to make it more even more real, right. So yeah, this is how am I? Yeah, I

Michelle D'costa  42:32

mean, it's really interesting, because the the structure like you said, right, there's, it's there's a very clear agenda you want, you know, you want it to be sort of a decision framework. But how did you sort of arrive at this combination? What was that process?

Shantanu Gupta  42:44

I think this this not happened to the book time, as I told you, I ran Ramayana school, right. So I started thinking session from last couple of years back. And there it was, like, like, like aroma and a story and then a lesson, right? But these case studies, I invented myself during writing this book, because during the course, I gave one or two case studies here and there, but not for every case. Right? So these are emitted wrong sitting with my family, calling my mom calling my sister who is who is a teacher in a school and these will not have children. Like I'm homeschooling my kids. So my my wife is more involved. She's part of a lot of homeschooling groups, talking to her right and seeing a lot of my situations talking to friends, what can fit what can you beautiful case it can fit in this scenario, in this open casket scenario in the round robin scenario, right? So talking to a lot of my friends, peers who are readers normally, who are living normal lives that what can connect to them, right. So that was a tougher part in part. So Ramayana, because I have a decent understanding of Ramayana by now, that retelling was easier but contextualizing it to the Kaluga was a difficult part to her. So yeah, I've done it by crowdsourcing the information. A lot of my friends in public.

Michelle D'costa  43:50

It's very interesting to see the collaborative effort behind it. Yeah, yeah. With what about you?

Amit Majmudar  43:56

Oh, yeah. So you mentioned that, you know, what did I have an American reader in mind or someone who didn't wasn't familiar with with the epic? And I absolutely did. And I wrote it. Not just for them, though. And I feel that when there's a lengthy book, it's good to have certain, you know, signposts along the way. And what was also interesting is that as I was kind of mentally bundling this set of chapters, and then this set of chapters and in this set of chapters and getting a sense of okay, how can I summarize it for someone who's unfamiliar with the epic, I thought, I began to realize that that this the mapa, which I kind of mentally imagined as being very, very spread out and not particularly tight, as a narrative actually has a very, very powerful internal structure has a strong kind of bone structure as as a story. It's an extended story. Now something like the Iliad or the Odyssey, it kind of focuses on a few characters. As the audit the Iliad is a specific, you know, the wrath of Achilles Achilles sits out the the war, and then he comes back into the war. The Odyssey is the homecoming of Odysseus, it's not the entire epic cycle of the entire story of the Trojan War, the mob hadith is, it's the entire story from the earliest lineages all the way through to the, you know, the, the, the mutual slaughter of the of the rich knees and the, and everything after and, and really, I feel is, is though, by summarizing it periodically, for an imaginary reader who didn't know the epic, I actually was also summarizing it for myself. And I actually increased my own understanding of the overall arc of the epic and the overall kind of bone structure the epic by doing that, and I'm actually, I'm, I, it made me realize that even even though you know, you can study these epics so much, you can read them over and over again. Um, but there's always something more, there's always something more to be learned. And I find that fascinating about the epics that they have an infinitude to them. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa  46:17

and I really, like this approach meant that you said that, you know, while summarizing it for the reader, you also sort of understood it better. You know, it's, it's sort of like this thing, you know, that we do, you know, in college, or when we sort of study with friends, like in a group, right, where you sort of summarize the lesson and teach it to somebody else. And then you realize, oh, this has sort of given me more insights into into this lesson.

Amit Majmudar  46:38

Right? They say that the best way to learn something, or rather, you know, you've learned something when you're when you can teach it to somebody else. Right. So you know, that Jonathan, who knows drama Anna, because he's teaching?

Michelle D'costa  46:51

Exactly, yeah. So okay, great. So I'm really happy that you know, we've got a lot of insight into your process into you know, your love for the epics. So this brings us to the second round of the interview, the second section, which is called the fun quiz, okay, where I'll be giving you three options when you have to pick one. Okay, no thinking aloud. So just whatever comes to your mind, okay. This is for a bit, right, from all the titles in your book, pick one that you loved writing the most loved writing basically the chapter, right, a parents of marrying a river be from a pail to the palace. See, for the love of a blue lotus?

Amit Majmudar  47:32

Hmm. I think that the first one for me, because that one, the perils of entering the river, it deals with some of the earliest stuff of the mob had at the earliest, you know, before Vyasa, even. And that's when Shantanu is he's marries the Ganga, right? And then he and then he has these, this very, very harrowing experience of seeing her go and drown his kids one by one. And those it's those very early early elements of the of the of the epics that I have always found very fascinating. The Ramayana has, you know, Carly dasa wrote something called Rohingya, which is the, you know, the, the lineage, the, the, the, the ramas, forefathers, right. And that's also something that I find very, very fascinating. And the Ramayana, the Balkan or the Rama, and doesn't necessarily begin with that environment. But all that knowledge was there, and Kali dasa turned it into an epic. And in the same way, I find that those early lineages are very, very fascinating in Ramos case as well, because there's different ways in which his forefathers, Fortune foreshadow his own epic story. There's a there's a there, he has a he has an ancestor who dearly loved his wife and then lost his wife. He has a forefather who, you know, there it's a whole I won't get into it, they live

Michelle D'costa  49:14

the origin story as Yes, the origin story, but

Amit Majmudar  49:16

it's it's so interesting to me how the entire Epic is encapsulated and the themes are sort of pre rigged, you know, previously described in the early lineages. And so I've always loved the early lineages of each both of the epics. And I think that so it's the first chapter that you mentioned that I think I pick

Michelle D'costa  49:34

Oh, great. Okay, all right. First Shantanu from all the life lessons in your book, which is your favorite or which is something that you stand by a rules are meant to be followed and flaunting them can endanger your life. Be walk the talk, see, always target long term goals rather than think about short term emotions or benefits.

Shantanu Gupta  49:56

I think the third one, the third With the long term goals because normally we get shadowed and get paranoid or parochial by whatever we see what's happening quickly, right? And this happens in Dashoguz case, the example that you coating that Vishwamitra comes to take Rama and Lakshman and ask the shooter that can I take them to kill taka Marie tsuba? Who, right? And that's the thing that doesn't say is that you can take me you can take my children the same which was the shoulda known for right and take my warriors why you're taking these 1516 year old kids, they're like salaam election are not even 16 Then right? And then comes Vashisht the cool guru. So the importance of Guru Guru in in those kingdoms and Bucha says two things to them. He says my teaching with them is always so much this was the first guru of all the four kids my teaching with like, like kind of classroom training is over. Now they have to do as in modern terms we say on job training, right that day to the practical training and they are putting their arrows to a static target now they have to kill enemies right? So they should graduate and this time Guru is coming to your door like nothing better than this Vishwamitra is g is amazing guru Why don't any is coming to the door. Send him in second thing he says see Vishwamitra G throw is earlier warrior of tar and now with the spiritual of that is capable of showing away those demons. Right? He's asking for rounds, lushness, health, meaning he's finding a good student in them. Right? And but with a very heavy heart, right? Even when the kids are kids, like it's 1516 year old, they're going to the wilderness of a jungle. And then somehow he settles within himself that okay. And I'm sending them and verses to Rishi puts his long term view of the good of Ramadan Lakshmi that will happen in the process, the teacher that will they will get in the form of Vishwamitra, right? Because I'm a I'm a student of politics, and I'm studying politics. So I have to see what a politician is doing today. Or what he's saying today, is he just saying for the heat of the moment, or he has layers to it right for a year for the coming election for the coming governance, or for the larger betterment of the country or society. That's why I think that lesson, I keep reminding myself that Okay, keep thinking of the longer term target. The short term is very tempting most of the times. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa  52:18

and I think not just in politics, like it's something which was I found very relatable even for our everyday life. I think that's because we tend to sort of get get, you know, distracted by short term goals, you know, as, as humans, okay, now, one favorite character from the Mahabharat with a couldn t be beam, see Duryodhan

Amit Majmudar  52:40

Ah, that's a very difficult one. And I want to make a disclaimer that I could pick any one of them and, and make a case for them. But I would have to say that as a writer, it's basically a split between beam and Duryodhan. But I think that if I had to pick one, it would probably be beam because there's there's so much scope for Comic Relief when you're dealing with him because he's so big, and he's so garrulous and he's so he's so fun. And, and I felt and I felt that because the book of vows had so much heavy material in it, and there's so much you know, serious stuff in it. It was nice to get beam in there and to have little comic relief through him. So as a writer and writer creating something for readers, I liked having been there because it was very natural to give the reader a little bit of you know, a little bit of smiles in the course of a very very bloody epic

Michelle D'costa  53:48

definitely I think he was one of my favorites as well. Okay for Shantanu one favorite character from the reminder a ROM be Sita see Cakery Oh,

Shantanu Gupta  53:59

very interesting. I thought you will give my favorite option Hanuman but I can see see ROM is obviously but I shouldn't say rom that's an easy choice because the Rama Rama Jana, the journey of Rama, right. I think I should pick Sita. Why so because in the glory of RAM, right, a lot of these characters get lost. Right. And I'll also at some point become to Bharath and chatroom, and also a lot of people in funds say exactly what the chatroom doing and this was the story, but you'll realize you're the one who's the one who's running the rule. I'll come back to see the first because then the question see, when the exile was given to Rama it was not given to Sita and Lakshman. Right Sita was the first one to volunteer for it right that and these are the vows i i took while doing the while while of marriage that in your happiness and in your sad days. Right? And this is a tough time I will be with you. Right that's the first instance and the multiple instance during those 14 years right. The character the she has shown that she's also learning a lot of things with the Guru's so in those times been 14 years. The whole three of them are hopping gurus, right? They're learning something from one guru, their family. And Sita is also learning a lot of life lessons and retelling through Valmiki. While teaching, right. And then her character that has shown then when she was in exile, when she was in captivity, right? And the character she's shown and when one instance, and Ravena comes to comes to her and says, give some money that I'm giving you, maybe two months, and otherwise, you have to marry otherwise, I'll eat you in my morning food, like a breakfast of today. And she's not even looking at Ravana. And like, can you imagine, like you're in the captivity of Ravana. You're surrounded by the demons and the soldiers of Ravana. And you're not even giving like how to Ravana is saying, Can I suggest you one thing? Why don't we go and apologize Rama? Maybe he will? pardon you? Right? And that is courage that needs courage, right? In the captivity of someone mighty Ramona. Right? And she's also very, very, very mindful that when she's getting kidnapped, she relies on either a mystery, right? She's dropped her her her jewelry at a particular place where she sees some set of people so that when Rama comes tracing, he may end up finding those and he really end up finding the Sugriva and his team. Right. And the last thing when Hanuman shows up to find Mata Sita, she's not believing Hanuman blindly because she's already being fooled by Ravana once and she's saying, How can I believe that you are sent by by by Rama and then Hanuman Ji has to produce the reign of Rama which Rama already guessed that Sita may ask now and then only like a password right? Like show me a password that you can join in zoom call. Right and she also returns a true Armonia hairclip return 201 Run Rama through Hanuman so that Rama can believe that Hanuman has made the right map of Sita not so Malaysia version of Naga Sita so she's this amazing characters doing all of this right but when you read the final reading of Ramayana, then you see the character of mother Sita coming along, right which olahraga get missed in the larger glory of Rama So yep, CW

Michelle D'costa  57:06

Absolutely yeah, I think I generally I think that you know, not just Sita but all you know, mostly women tend to sort of you know, they're quite underrated in in you know, epics, stories captures all of that. So, I'm glad to know she's your favorite. So now we come to the final round off the interview. Okay, this is the rapid fire round. So you can only answer in one word or one line, okay? Again, no thinking but get the briefest answers possible. Okay. Where do you write this for both of you?

Shantanu Gupta  57:39

I write on a computer my Mac, I can bet on pen and paper.

Amit Majmudar  57:43

I write in my study on a Mac. Yeah, awesome. MacBook Air technically.

Michelle D'costa  57:50

Okay, one shloka from the Ramayana that you can swear by any time champion.

Shantanu Gupta  57:56

See, this is this is sad that still after reading Valmiki Ramayana, I haven't translations so my son skip. I'm not. Not good in Sanskrit, though. I'm a student of Valmiki Ramayana, but I quote more of Tulsi Ramayana Chopin, which I've already quoted that Raghu will read so that surely I Parana Jaipur Watson, again, that will be my topic.

Michelle D'costa  58:14

Okay. All right, one vowel from the Mahabharata that you think applies even today?

Amit Majmudar  58:21

Well, I think, I don't know how many of those vowels necessarily apply today because they were related to the throne of Hasina or, and, you know, going after the goat of us. So I think in general, the idea of the vowel definitely applies today. And so you know, if you if you say it, do it, or if you if you're not going to do it, don't say it. Okay.

Michelle D'costa  58:43

All right, one spiritual destination that you want to visit for both.

Shantanu Gupta  58:49

Obviously, in fact, I want to do the whole Ramayana circuit. And fortunately, I was there when Rama came back. And you know, maybe I'm digressing. When I was in the Prime Minister and 22nd January, I was able to relate a lot of things that Valmiki Ramayana said that how people were happy when Rama came back. And similarly, since I saw on the streets of Isaiah, when Rama really came back after the fight of 500 years, the legal battle so yeah, now I want to go to the Hold on a second. I've been to a couple of places, but I make sure to them multiple places. I can't go all of them in my lifetime, but I can do all the prominent places. So hold on a second I want to cover

Amit Majmudar  59:26

Yeah, and I would like to go to the Himalayas. I've never been there. And I feel that I'm I'm definitely kind of called there. And I would also like to go to Shirdi which is the shrine of Sai Baba.

Michelle D'costa  59:41

Oh, lovely. Okay, now if y'all could switch places, okay. Shantanu what would you write about from the Mahabharata? Like just in one word or one line and homage? If you could write your about the Ramayana, what would it be?

Shantanu Gupta  59:54

So I think I still do some some some intersections of Ramayana and Mahabharata, right? And in my telling also I do some intersection and that I want to write right so let's say in Rwanda we have the surah when she kings here we have the Chandra when she the Luna dentistry right and there is a connection between Hanuman Ji and been right in the in the pataka in the flag of Arjuna there is a picture of Hanuman JI Right. So I want to see the intersections of Ramayana and Mahabharata. Hamana happened before Mahabharata, but in lots of places while giving the example right in Mahabharata and then giving the examples of Rama, the Ramayana characters and Rama himself, right. So I want to find those intersection between Ramayana and Mahabharata. And right at some point about that.

Amit Majmudar  1:00:40

Yeah, so yeah, so it's funny, you should mention that because just in January, I published a book called The later Adventures of hunting lawn, which is for it's for younger readers, and it was 40 kind of original stories of what human experience at after Rama enters the Saudi River and he's alone, he's Genji. So he goes on living forever. So he has adventures into the modern day 40 of them and I and that book came from Penguin India in January, in 2019, I wrote a retelling of the Ramayana, in for every chapter from the voice of a different character. So I, I tell the whole story. But each chapter is a jumps among different stories. Even the squirrel on the bridge gets, gets his voice gets his story. And I, I progress the story by jumping among different characters. And so it all makes sense to the reader. But it's the sort of polyphonic multi voiced retelling of the Ramayana, called Sita and I was 2019, also from Penguin Books, and then it penguin India. And I've actually also written the Ramayana trilogy, and which is lit, which is it's literally the same size as the as the Mahabharata trilogy. And so if you if you wait long enough that we have to wait for these to come out, and at some point, that thing's going to come out do so. I'm already all over the

Michelle D'costa  1:02:04

years clearly, you know, I especially loved the one where you said that you progress a story through, you know, different characters POV because I think that's something that I've also done in my novel, which is coming out later this year. From

Amit Majmudar  1:02:15

congratulations. What's the title of it? Oh,

Michelle D'costa  1:02:19

it's called you and me the casinos and other migrants in the Middle East? Yeah, so it's really about about a family in Indian family who's who's living in the Gulf, and in sort of, you know, that that milieu, because it's not really covered in a lot of fiction.

Amit Majmudar  1:02:32

Did you? Did you live in the Gulf? Yes, yes,

Michelle D'costa  1:02:34

I was born and raised there. Which is why also, like I said, you know, I don't have much context of the Hindu epics because of that. So it's only it's Yeah, so it's only when I came down here, sort of, you know, like, I think we came back in 2019. Because, as you know, you know, you don't get citizenship in the Gulf, you know, unlike the US or other places where you stay. So it's only after coming here that I've sort of, you know, I've understood more about these effects. And of course, through this interview as well. Yeah. Okay. Great.

Amit Majmudar  1:03:00

Congratulations. Keep us in touch as Yes, yes.

Michelle D'costa  1:03:05

I'll definitely share it with you all. Because there Yeah. And as you said, you know, the multiple POVs is something that I'm very excited about. Okay, so this is the last question. Okay, what's next? Like literally, which book is coming out next? Or which book are you working on?

Shantanu Gupta  1:03:23

As I told you, I'm a I'm a political writer, right, and political topics and 2024 elections coming so I'm doing something on 10 years of marine movies work on the Ramayana series are still tied up between I'll write this we're among our families. I may write Ramana for entrepreneurs or a man or for politician we're gonna write first and disliked in due course along sitting with Penguin India. Yeah.

Amit Majmudar  1:03:49

So I'm, you know, I wrote about the great Indian Civil War, right, which is the mob pirate, and now I'm writing a big old novel about the American Civil War. So Oh,

Michelle D'costa  1:04:00

exciting. I really, really love that, that both of you have really intense projects to work on a lot of thinking, a lot of excitement. But I really loved you know, speaking to both of you, I think it gave me a lot more insight into the roles and it just the way y'all narrated the stories, right, especially the difference between, you know, both the rabbi honors, or what is sort of the preconceived notions we've all had about these epics and sort of, you know, how we can relate to it in our contemporary life. So thank you so much for sharing. I think I really enjoyed speaking about these books, and I'm really looking forward to the other books that you come up.

Amit Majmudar  1:04:35

Thank you for having us and your questions. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Shantanu Gupta  1:04:40

And thank you for thank you for making me meet Ahmed Mazumdar, and I'll totally pick up books and salary. Yes,

Amit Majmudar  1:04:46

yes. And the reason is because I want to check out the Ramayana school for sure for my kids. And yeah, I noticed

Michelle D'costa  1:04:51

that there are a lot of similarities so it will be really interesting. Okay, I will just stop the recording here. You