6.4 Damyanti Biswas: The Murky World Of Mumbai's Dance Bars

Imagine a crowded railway station where an attractive stranger catches your eye. A train passes by and– they’re gone!

In this episode, Michelle sits down with Damyanti Biswas to discuss her book ‘The Blue Bar’, as it unpacks the disappearance of a woman dressed in a blue sequined saree from a crowded Mumbai railway station and how, 13 years later, a trail of murders begin with nothing to show for it- except blue sequins. They discuss how Damyanti sat in railway stations watching trains as part of her research, how she obsessively read about bar dancers, and why The Blue Bar is a Mumbai novel, through and through. 

In this exciting partnership series with Jaico Publishing House, we are featuring fascinating new authors every month, writers that captivate the audience and bring forth a revolutionary perspective to Indian literature.

What secrets and terrible crimes lie behind the glamor of Bollywood, dance bars, and mangroves in Mumbai? 

Tune in to find out!

Books and authors mentioned in this episode:

Beautiful Thing: Inside the Secret World of Bombay’s Dance Bars - Sonia Faleiro
The Last Courtesan - Manish Gaekwad
Maximum City: Bombay Lost and Found - Suketu Mehta
Shantaram - Gregory David Roberts
Sacred Games - Vikram Chandra
The Secret of More - Tejaswini Apte-Rahm
Manjhi’s Mayhem - Tanuj Solanki

Movies mentioned in this episode:

Chandni Bar - Madhur Bhandarkar (Director)

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Chapters

• 0:00 Books & Beyond Intro
• 0:29 Introduction to Damyanti Biswas & 'The Blue Bar'
• 58:04 Books & Beyond Outro

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Michelle D'costa, Damyanti

Michelle D'costa  00:00

 Hi, everyone. I'm super excited for today's episode because I'm going to speak to Damion Lee Biswas, a writer that we have covered in a very first season on Vox and beyond for her thriller you beneath your skin. And today I'm going to unpack her first book in her latest thriller series. The blue bar, which actually takes you on a rollercoaster ride of Mumbai is underworld corruption, dance powers, mangroves and much more, and it has already become a favorite of mine. So on the very first page were introduced to Tara who is a bad dancer, and who is desperate to change the course of her life. So when a client actually offers her a huge payout in exchange for fulfilling an old fantasy she accepts, and what is this fantasy you asked? So Tara has to actually wear a blue sequins sari and enter a crowded railway station, and then just disappear from view in less than three minutes. And that was actually the last time anyone saw that. And you know, not 13 years later, we have inspector or nurse Singh Rajput, who's actually Carol's lover, and he's faced with a series of murders where the police find women's dismembered bodies being on earth from the graves in the cities outskirts. Now, will Tara's body be the next one that are now finds? And we are constantly hoping it's not? Also let's find out from the VLT herself? How did this book come about? And this this whole Bombay novel that she has written welcome wrt.

Damyanti  02:04

Thank you so much, Michelle. And it's an absolutely distinct pleasure to come back to return. And I'm so happy to be back on bound. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's

Michelle D'costa  02:14

a pleasure. You know, and, you know, what actually drew me to your book, is the fact that, you know, the heart of the book lies in Mumbai, and not just in Mumbai, but in movies, dance pups, right. And we've heard that you've got the idea for this book, in a writing workshop, actually, at the Broncos to write about a character who is being watched. And but the character themselves aren't aware that they are being watched. And so this is how the first chapter actually unfolds. Right? So Tara, who's a bad dancer, she disappears from a crowded railway station, you know, without being aware that she's actually being watched. And for me, it is one of the most memorable opening scenes that I've read. Because, you know, coincidentally, I live in Berkeley, and I take the train to work. And the last time that I was on the platform, you know, I was just sort of manifesting Tara standing there in the Saudi and I was imagining, oh, what would people's reactions be like? Because you do see so many people on the station, and I'm very sure someone in a new sequence, it would definitely stand out. So how did this idea of making her a bad dancer and sort of setting this opening scene in a very crowded warranty station cover?

Damyanti  03:25

Well, you've done your research. So yes, this entire scene came about in a writing workshop, it was being run by this book or shortlisted author Romesh gunesekera, I think, somewhere in 2016, or 17. And he kind of gave us this exercise. And for me, blues, my favorite color. And I immediately thought of somebody wearing blue. And this entire scene I wrote in the workshop within those 15 or 20 minutes that were given to us. And you know, that first line endings are overrated beginnings, though beginnings are everywhere. So that line has stayed in all the drafts, there have been so many drafts and the scene has stayed intact, and all those drops. And I saw terror in my imagination, but I actually did go down to Borivali station and figure out if it is at all possible or not. Because, you know, I was like, Are there any buildings from there they can see and then I asked people like around 2002 Do you think what the station look like? And, you know, ask for pictures I asked for, you know, somebody who lives in Mumbai to say, you know, I got several people who live in Mumbai to actually vet it and now that I know that you live and guess who was going to get a request for you? Could you advance read my book and find out all the flaws because somebody did it for the wow, yeah. but I have had people read the book and tell me if you know, the flaws in there, I'm sure they remain but whatever they are their mind. But I, I am really thankful people actually read the scene and told me yeah, this is possible.

Michelle D'costa  05:15

Oh, wow. So you know, it's really interesting to see that the scene came to you as it is in that workflow, right? And then, of course, after that you sort of backed it up with a lot of research and you came to Bombay onto that. But you know, I'm curious to know, maybe later on, right, maybe after the scene is set, once you get in the second chapter, third chapter, did you sort of think about why that particular same game to you what I mean is, Have you always been fascinated about the lives of bad answers? Or was it just this story that sort of came to you in this way?

Damyanti  05:48

I think all of us writers are warriors, one way or the other, we are always wanting to know what happens. So whenever I look at an apartment building, I wonder, you know, what goes on in that apartment, because you know, Every floor has a different story. And similarly, when I'm at a train station, or I am in a train, and I see, you know, buildings was passed, very famously, like, you know, there have been stories, which have been set exactly on that premise. But for me, it was more of I was questioning myself, like, as I as I wrote, because some of the lines where she, she is talking about that she's a bad dancer, and all of that they came in later, I did not know that she was a bad dancer. That's something I had to ask myself, who, who, what, where, and but the setting was there, she was there. And, you know, I only had that scene. And I took it to my agent, my then agent at the time in the UK. And he was like, yeah, see where this takes you. And it was all a series of what is. So everything came from that one scene? Because I kept asking, Who is this person who is watching her who is watching her. And it was like, I was obsessed with this intrigue of what happens. And I kind of wrote out all the character descriptions like are now came from there. Everybody came from that one scene. Oh, wow. So that's how it came about?

Michelle D'costa  07:21

That's really interesting. Yeah, I think now I sort of visualize what you mean. Because you know, sometimes when I write as well, the initial sentence with initial scenes don't make sense completely. What you just have to do is follow your gut, follow your instinct, write it out. And sometimes it makes sense only once later, right. So it's, it's interesting to know that you didn't sort of set out to make her a bad answer, and that it came about. So for me, in fact, the, you know, the theme of your book, which is the larger theme, which is violence against women, is what kept me on the edge of my seat, actually, you know, like women who are in the clutches of men who have connections, who are physically stronger, who are more powerful than them. I mean, you know, this is a theme that we often see in literature, but I love the way you added the nuance of you know, being a bad dancer to this, you know, because there are not many books that cover this demographic. Right? We do have this Sonia Phil arrows or nonfiction book, beautiful thing, which covers this whole era of reading. Yeah. And then we do have this Bollywood movie long back, I remember watching Chandni bar, you know, when I was yes, at zero back then, obviously, you know, parents and all of them wanting to censor this this kind of content. They said, No, no chocolate bar is not meant for children and teens, you know, adults should watch it. And I remember for the first time being, being sort of, you know, introduced to the world of bad answers. So, I want to know from you, you know, from your research, and from the time that you have been writing this book, even the series, by the way, because it's not just the first book, um, what do you think that you have unpacked? What do you think you have been able to unpack about this whole demographic, especially Mumbai is bad answers that you have not seen in other books?

Damyanti  09:01

Well, I think the bad answers in Mumbai, they have a very intriguing story, especially now that we look back in retrospect, because the entire story that I wrote about was set in that period when bars are shutting down and when they are about to reopen again and it's it's it's interesting how politics and economics played into this whole situation of bars closing down, you know, bars opening in the first place, the bars open, because somebody went and saw these bars that existed in the Middle East and they decided, okay, we could have these here. And, you know, a certain class of people started and a certain even, you know, surnames like Shakhty they are the owners of dance bars, you know, they kind of monopolize the whole thing, and how women kind of became this, this avenue through which money would be made and it's interesting because they occupy a very liminal space because they Not quite prostitutes, but they're also not quite respectable dancers like you would go and watch your partner Tim performance, right? And you would be nobody would people would appreciate your taste etc, but you went to watch a bar dance you would not and also, how this was a, these bars occupied like they are for the middle class. So not the very rich and not the very, you know, poor but the middle class would go in so these are the shopkeepers, the people who have, you know, sort of they live in joint families and Mumbai with the real estate prices, there is not much, you know, in terms of, like, there's no concept of privacy, there's no concept of, you know, what's the marital relationship like so they kind of want to go and watch these bar dances. And in a lot of cases, like you, you are, you are allowed to look but not to touch, which is ways different from how the strip bars, like whenever I've given interviews in the US about, you know, what are the these bars like, and I've always said that they're very different from the strip bars in the US, you know, the back kind of this is not that kind of bar dancing, you know. So it's like a stage where the girls are like, you know, some bars obviously did not follow rules, but most bars, which would be the normal concept is they have a stage where they're, you know, dancing away, and then men are throwing money at them. And it's not even the real money. These are money that they kind of buy. So you Oh, really? Yeah. So okay, so it's a lot of the times it's not money, that it's not real money. So they actually take the money that they you know, they would say 20,000 30,000, and a lot of this is laundered money, right? Like, this is not legal money. So it's a way to launder it as well. So you take that illegal money, and you actually buy it. So you buy fake currency notes. So the currency notes that are thrown are often fake.

Michelle D'costa  12:03

Black, Black towards

Damyanti  12:05

us, because that's that's a huge way of because who is involved in these right? The dons were involved, obviously, they own you know, a lot of the money that came in at that time. You see the movies, which were financed. Now, the big finance companies have come in now it's all aboveboard now is reliance. And all of those, you know, they're multinational companies, and Disney has come in, but imagine 2025 30 years back, it was still not movies, how were they financed? Think of it, how people were shot on the streets and how the boom Bipolars was. So this is second that time after when, you know, those shootouts used to happen, but they're still kind of happening, but not quite as much. So now, you know, because the Mumbai pool is that in itself has a story of its own, and it's very much related to the bar dancing. So it is very true that in the bars, you would find the criminals, the cops, the cricketers, you know the big businessman, you know, and not the kind of businessman who are like suited booted, but you know, that kind of businessman who kind of they have like this small shop from which they do business worth lakhs of rupees. So a bar is part of an ecosystem. So it is the women are part of an ecosystem, which is slightly different from prostitution, they do have slightly more agency where they are able to sometimes choose who they're going with or if they want to go into prostitution or not. So a lot of this is is very unique to the Mumbai dance scene. I mean, of course, there's dance bar scene in Kolkata. And there's one in Bangalore and there's some in Delhi, but the one in Mumbai has this very unique cocktail of influences that come in from all sides, you see, because Mumbai being the financial capital, Mumbai being where, you know, tolerates launder their money, Mumbai being a port. So there are a lot of things that happen in Mumbai, the scene of Mumbai is very different from let's say, Chennai, or Bangalore, for example, very uniquely, Mumbai. So yeah, the dance bars came up out of this ecosystem. And I think post COVID I don't know if they're doing as well, because the world has moved on, right? These people now have phones and they can watch all the things that they want to the axis is changed, so yeah,

Michelle D'costa  14:37

no, I think that's what I feel it's not just you know, the whole bar dancer demographic, I think what you've done in the book, as you said right now is capture that ecosystem. Because everything is related. It's not just the buttons or it's not just for you know, the other girls dancing in the bar. It's not just Shetty, who is the order. It's everybody right, and we get to see that in the novel. Of course, I don't want to give any spoilers but you know, our conversation reminded me of this recent book that I read, the last quote is up by manage penguin. And this what you mentioned this phrase about, you know, you can look, but don't touch. And that's something that that came up in that conversation as well, because I feel it's often misconstrued, you know, these these sorts of professions where when women are on the fringes, it's often misconstrued as, as prostitution, but it's not right, there are these nuances. And I think what you've done is you've bought these nuances out through the novel. And I think, you know, just from, from what you mentioned, you know, I think a lot of writers, what they usually do is, you know, at least the writers that I have, you know, I do read quite often, they often end up writing stories set in places that they live in, right. So for example, you know, we know that you're set in Singapore, even the last time we interviewed you, you're you right out of Singapore, and we do know that you visited Bombay, for you know, as part of the research, and I know that see, even my approach, for example, with writing is I often, you know, always reach out to settings that I've lived in, for example, Bangalore, Bombay, or or Bahrain dealt with you, what I want to know is, you know, the kind of topic or the themes that you've covered, they are not very easily accessible to you, yourself, you've said that the Mumbai Police is not easily accessible, nor is Bollywood. So a lot of interviews actually came through, you know, the grace of friends, or the friends of friends and all of that. And it involved a lot of running around. So I know, do you generally rather? Or was it just with this book? wrt, and you know, how much of that research that you did actually made it into the book, because I'm very sure that you have uncovered so much. But you know, you have to definitely add nuance in the book to make the plot moving, you can't add all the research. So what is that?

Damyanti  16:43

It is it's true in the sense that out of that one bit of research, I got two novels, because the blue monsoon, it was written during COVID. So I couldn't go back to Mumbai. But I knew all the police procedures and things like that. So I had developed some contacts to whom I could, you know, I could just place calls and say, Does this happen? Does this happen instead of actually going there and get access to, you know, certain parts? But for me, I kind of am. I'm a reader before I'm a writer, and I have been a reader, like since I was three years old, I think. So for me, I and I came very late into writing. So I began writing when I was in my, you know, in my late 20s, actually, early 30s. Right there. So I was like, you know, when I read a book, and I see a detail that, that is just does not fit or is not believable is not plausible, I kind of tend to lose interest in the whole book, no matter how well it's written, because I'm sort of, even though I'm a writer, now myself, and I know what goes into it. As a reader, I tend to be very unforgiving. And I tend to be, you know, a little bit obsessive about small things. And I feel that that's why as an author, I feel that you know, when you're writing, you're kind of creating a 360 degree experience. So you are creating like you are, you know, you're creating the theater, right, the setting is your backdrop in the theater, you you have your characters you see whatever you are, you don't break the fourth wall that's about it. So you put them in, and then they have like, the fourth fourth dimension comes in, because they are smelling. They're doing this, they're doing that, right. But I feel that if I am there, and if for a moment, I begin to see the crack in the pain, and the this is not, you know, things are chipping. And then I say, oh, let's just make believe she just made it up. So then I come out of it. So I do not have that suspension of disbelief. I mean, of course, when I'm reading a novel, I know I'm reading a novel, but when I'm reading a novel, for me, I am a very visual and a very sensory person. So I need to be able to and I know now that there are readers who don't, you they read it and they are not able to, you know, their their senses, their brains are, you know, in a certain way, configured in a certain way that they don't form the images or they can't smell it, they don't taste it. And that's true as well, that happens. But for me, when I'm writing as well, I'm taking dictation, right? So for me, it's very important that I know the smallest of details. So the more I know, I can put it all in and then I take out so I am not a putter in a I'm a taker outdoor when it comes to writing. So I would write a draft which is usually 100 100,000 110,000 words, and then it, you know, takes his journey and I chop it, chop it, chop it and it goes down to 8590 90 to 93. That's really the range in which I've ended up writing. So for me, the whole process is very messy and ugly. By now I know that that's the only way for me to get into a novel is through the five senses. So I have to have those five senses. And unless that's why unless I know the place I see the place is really hard for me to kind of get in there. I also do a lot of obsessive reading on that subject in order to kind of submerge myself. So, you know, I have to immerse myself in that world and stay.

Michelle D'costa  20:28

That's interesting. What did you read? I mean, if you like, do you have like any books at the top of your mind that that really sort of helped you? In the research phase? Yeah, of course.

Damyanti  20:36

One is the fillet arrows book about the about the bad answers. I read maximum city, of course, I read Shantaram I read sacred games. And I read his other the short stories. I can't remember the name now the author of sacred games, he has this collection of short Chandra? Yes, Vikram Chandra. Yeah, so his collection of short stories, and I read Rohinton Mistry, even though they are not related at all to the world that I am writing in, but I read them because I wanted to know what's been done before in about Mumbai, right? What's been written before I even flipped through some of the, because I was like, I need to get a flavor of what's already been done. What's been there, a little bit of maybe even not Copalis, which is so different from my novel, right? But I had to read a bit of detail as well, to see how has Mumbai be seen, right? And then read a little bit of the history of Mumbai. And this was like, my pleasure reading the rest of the times, then watching YouTube videos to try and and kind of get me into that place. You know, watch hundreds of people just I remember a half a day, I was just watching trains coming and going out at the stations, you know, just that and doing nothing else I obsessively reading about Bart answers, like, who was a famous bar dancer of the time. And of course, you know, I tried to visit the bar. So I went and I spoke to the coolest people. So I did a lot of things. Actually, it feels nice to do it, but I do it. I do it. No, I think I'm a bad writer. I'm not very good at writing. So for me, it's very important to have all of that. And only then I can do it. Yeah, no,

Michelle D'costa  22:27

but honestly, that sounds like a lot of fun. You know, like, I mean, just sitting there watching trains come in and out of the station. For, you know, research for your book, I think is way more interesting than, you know, having that anxiety of catching the train.

Damyanti  22:43

I sat down in Borivali station, I took a guided tour into tarawih, I actually took a guided walking tour of Mumbai, I went to the OB card where I watched all those. And those scenes never went into the novel. But I had a feeling of Mumbai by walking on the streets, you know, you think there are power walking on that beach and go to Aqsa beach and go to all those, you know, those places the movie shoots happen. I actually went and watched a movie shoot. So I went and watched through somebody who knew somebody, I went into the shooting of tanhaji. And as own route was that day Ajay Devgan wasn't on, on set all our phones and everything were taken away. But whatever I've written in the book, is my experience of that day. Because I was on the set. And I was sitting behind home route and you know, he's like, Okay, do you want a cigarette, and we go out and we chat. And, you know, talk, and I have never talked to him, you know, after that. But, you know, he he gave some very interesting insights I spoke to, you know, other directors, not on scene, but I spoke to script writers because I read because I was still like, you know, I had the story, but I was still fumbling with. Yeah, how it will come together? Because I guess you've read it. So you know that it's all very, very, very convoluted and complex, even for me to kind of keep track of who was who because there's whatever's happening in front, right. And then there's what's happening behind so to keep track of all of that. I did have to do a little bit of research. I had to kind of know, not more,

Michelle D'costa  24:29

and I think not just that right? It's Yes, you have, you know, let's say a convoluted plot. There are many characters, all of that but I also feel what you were trying to do with get the heartbeat of Bombay, which I really liked reading all these books through, as you said, eating street food, and all of that, which was actually one of my questions because the Mumbai novel is is I know it's a thing and there are many recent books written about mommy so the most recent that I read and that we covered on the podcast as well as Tejaswini update rounds. The secret of more than this or neutrality is munchies mayhem. Oh, So I wanted to know, you know, could you imagine this book in any other place apart from Bombay? Or do you think you know, by you could say any any permutation combination that you might use, it will always end up as a Bombay

Damyanti  25:15

or definitely it's a Mumbai novel, Mumbai came first, the novel came second, when, when that it was from the beginning, it was a Mumbai railway station, because long years back when I was in my early 20s, I had gone into Mumbai, for my internship, so I'm an I'm a graduate out of NFT. So up in my earlier life, I'm a fashion design graduate. And I did that, of course, long years ago, and I, I used to stay in Borivali. And I used to take the train from Borivali station and change, change, change and go to Nero, and come back from Nero back to Borivali. So you, you know how long that would be right? And in those days, change twice, right? So I had to, you know, on rainy days, and sometimes on the stairs, there's a dead body, somebody is like, going up, so I have to skip over the dead body and run in I'm trying to go in and people shoving me so that entire, you know, someday I think, you know, I will write a book, which is set entirely in trains, because I think Indian trains are so fascinating. Like, that, an entire life happens there not so much now, in the you know, in The MRTS, because, you know, now everybody's got the phones. So, the interaction is lesser, right. But in the days when I took that train in Mumbai, you know, people would have those big handkerchief, like, put it like that, and they would play cards, they would have the women's compartment where I will get in. There used to be one corner, which would only be with the you know, Manjeet bhajan and all that. Yeah, I can on one side somebody is doing manicure or no, there's somebody is doing nail polish and things like that they remove your nail polish, they do nail polish,

Michelle D'costa  27:04

like many worlds within within the

Damyanti  27:08

swirl, right? And why train compartment is endlessly fascinating. And I think so many, I think stories have happened in that premise as well, which is why it's so difficult to do one. And you know, I stayed away from it, because I know that train thrillers have been done by others have been done. So I kind of followed my own instinct and said, let me see what has been done. And then you know, kind of try to do something which is maybe not has, you know, if you if you if you read the book, it does read like, a Bollywood movie or a Bollywood series, right? That's what it reads like. And that's exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to do like, something that would feel like a Netflix movie, because I like that entire, that, that economy of plotting and pacing that they have so there's no like long song and dance and nothing happens. You know, there are song because song and dance is very integral to a Mumbai movie plot, right? Because you sometimes a lot of things happen within that song, right? Something something to pull is all of that.

Michelle D'costa  28:20

Item Numbers. Yeah,

Damyanti  28:22

all of that, or, you know, those Helen numbers where there used to be like she's dancing and a lot of things happening in the background. So for me, I wanted to make this sort of, yeah, that's exactly what I wanted. I wanted like that experience that Netflix web series nowadays gives you because I really find it fascinating, like something like sacred games, how completely it feels immersed in the world. Like,

Michelle D'costa  28:51

it's so intense. You're right, I think I get what you mean, you want it to experience to be just like as if someone's living in Moby, right, because that's the experience, you don't get time to breathe, you don't get space to breathe, and I feel that's what the novel does. Really well. And I think apart from the trains, and then the local stations and all of that, for me, something that I I liked is how you mentioned about mangroves and how that could be a bed for crime and have a lot of bodies being disposed because I have like a huge mangrove sort of section around my house and I have never thought of that. You know, I mean obviously it is mysterious. You know you have the students do you wonder what happens there and all of that and then when I read your book I just it it really scared the shit out. So but I really feel that you'll be able to you know, capture that that vibe or that heartbeat of Bombay, like I said, and and you know, apart from the setting I think we have covered you know the setting very well. I feel apart from that your characters are what drives the book across actually. So it's unknown. Who is the inspector you know, we are just following his journey and because he's actually in love with Tara, please still haunted by her disappearance and What I liked is the book uses multiple POV right? You're not just stuck with one character's point of view, but you see different kinds of point of view. But honestly, for me right now was was by far the best for me. It stood out the most, you know, especially because you've given him a very interesting backstory. Right? Something happens to his sister, he wants to avenge his sister's death. And he still doesn't know what happens to Tara. He seems to be like a really loyal, really hard working sincere policeman or emits a lot of corruption that happens in the police station. So please tell us about Aurora you know, and and what was your most favorite scene in the book including?

Damyanti  30:38

Well, I all the scenes are terrifying, to be honest. Because I'm like, I had to rewrite so many. And you wouldn't believe that even when it was going in for its final read. And before it went to the printer, four days before it went to the printer, I asked my editor, can we take away this chapter? I think this chapter adds nothing to the book. And she was like, oh, yeah, but since it was to the end of the book, I got away with it, because then not many chapters have to be changed. So for me, all the scenes are nightmares. Believe me, I mean, I don't really have like a favorite chapter saying, who were a pleasant time I had asked her the character. I think our nerve came from this exercise that again, I do with all my characters, which I do with all my characters in all my novels. And that's how I tried to get to know them is by trying to write a scene when they were very young. So when they are four or five years old, and I write it in scene, it never makes it into the book. Sometimes it does, because it becomes a flashback and earners case it did, because when I wrote the 12, or 13 year old or now, that's when the scene came so and then that scene becomes part of the novel, what happened to him at 13. And because I knew what happened to him at 13, I knew what he would do at 19. And what he would do at the DEA, because I personally feel that our childhoods shape us, what we learn from one year old to seven year old or zero to seven year old is what we are forever. You know, it's like a thesis, antithesis, synthesis. So we go, we, it's as simple as Oh, you put your finger in a socket, then you realize, oh, you know, cannot. So then that's the pieces then anti thesis, okay, you know, things have a plug or whatever it is. And then you come to a synthesis. And then the next time again, you something happens to you with electricity, and you're like, yeah, do not touch it. So you form these beliefs, right? Your entire belief system really is based on what you experienced. And you know, what values people around you give you how that thesis, what anti thesis comes in. So what thesis you found somebody gives you an anti thesis in the form of, you know, a your relatives, your parents name, beta assignee author, or, you know, you yourself come to that thing. Oh, no, no, no, it's not like that. But forever. That's how we learn. That's the process of learning. That's how our brain forms right till it becomes an automated process. So that when you're walking on the road, or when you're driving, when you're driving, you're not thinking something's coming from this side, I must do this. My car is this way. Now I will turn to the left. No, no, no, I'll turn to the right. No, I must break. The body's doing it. It's a body memory, right? Because it because every Yes. So muscle memory is what happens. So once you get into a character and develop that muscle memory, then what happens is you figure out what is it that the character wants in life? What is the goal, right? And then you see what it is that is preventing them from getting to that goal. So where is it that the struggle is you figure out what the internal struggles are, you know, certain things that have happened to them, because of which they have certain beliefs about themselves and about the world, which may be stopping them from doing getting the very thing that they want. Or it is something external, so it is a tsunami, or it's a flood or whatever. Mostly, it's a combination of these two. So for me character drives plot, I never tried to make a plot and put a character in it, I take a character. And as I get to the character, yeah, as I get to know the character, the plot comes from there. And then that becomes much more organic. Yeah.

Michelle D'costa  34:28

And I think what you mentioned about internal and external struggle, I think this came across very well in one scene, and I think that is my favorite so far. It's towards the beginning of the book, where you see he returns from seeing these dead bodies, and you know that there's a party going on at home, there are children at home. So it's sort of this external struggle, he knows that you're not supposed to sort of just to visit children, you know, just after having seen dead bodies. He knows he has to freshen up. And then he sort of he, you know, he visits his his girlfriend, and the paragraph goes like this, you know, he sneaked into the bus So bedroom the crime scene stench clung to his clothes and he didn't want to creep into the children are not kept his clothes in Nandini straws it turned underneath is his girlfriend, and some of his toiletries sat in a haphazard pile in the bathroom closet, Tara wouldn't have stood for such a mess. A wry smile hovered on our nerves, lips as he shared his clothes. And here is where you pretend to show the internal struggle. Radio show that he is, though he's in the present, he's dating somebody else started still on his mind. And that's what makes you want to actually get to know or know more than you want him to really solve the case, because we are also haunted by that has disappeared right? Now, you know, what I want to know is see, as you said, your character drives the plot. Correct. But you know that, you know, as a writer, you're tempted by 1000 ways of telling a story, correct. There are so many ways in which you could tell a story. And finally, you have to take one call, you have to take one decision right? Now, I want to know why you sort of choose to make this a police procedure, right, where you address corruption, red tape politics so much more. Right. And even your first book that we are interviewed for is a police. Procedural? I want to know out of all the ways in which you can tell a story, why did you sort of pick a police procedural trope? And why do you sort of return to?

Damyanti  36:18

Well, that's also because I don't think I am a natural thriller writer, I became a thriller writer by accident, I came into writing novels, because I was writing literary short stories, and then one of them grew and grew and became you beneath your skin, I really wasn't planning for it. And it took me six or seven years to, you know, get to that novel and teach myself writing. So you will need your skin as I think, where I taught myself how to write. And by the time I was in the blue bar, I kind of knew, you know, that I could write a novel and that I could figure things out. But I realized that I wanted to, you know, if I want to sort of show the contradictions and nuances of modern India, where several centuries live at once, you know, like, it's like, very few other countries where you have all of this kind of jostling for space, variety of factors jostling for space, and which we, as Indians take to be very normal, because that's our lives, right? But for the blooper, I was very aware of my audience, I knew I'm writing for a western audience. And for me, I wanted to remain true to the Indian experience. But at the same time, I also wanted the western audience to see it in its entirety. So not exalt the size, and, you know, kind of put in needlessly put in some incense and mangoes, and, you know, what have you, but to, to actually try and give a genuine flavour of what life is like today, in today's India, you know, in the 2020s, what is it to be live in the Mumbai of 2020s? You know, I just wanted to completely capture that. And to do that in a first person narrative, would we limit the scale because I will not be able to go so many places. So that's why you see a lot of these psychological thrillers, the first person narratives, a lot of them are locked room mysteries, because then you're not going out. But for me, I wanted to go out. For me, Mumbai is just as important as the characters. And that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to see the city because I'm endlessly fascinated by Mumbai. And I know that a lot of stories have been set in Mumbai, which show Mumbai for what it is, but then I wanted to do Mumbai and thriller, you know, so and I wanted to keep that entire flavor of Mumbai. And I wanted to have those literary things, I wanted to have those pigeons, wheeling, and etc, all of that I wanted a goat in the, at the back of a car, all of that those are like real snippets of Mumbai that I've noted down as I, you know, as I'm walking, I'm typing, you know, on my phone, this line, this line, this line, and I've taken endless photographs of Mumbai, in those months, I stayed there for the research. So I wanted all of that and to have all of that you needed a bigger cast of characters, and that's not a psychological thriller, then, you know, it is more of a crime novel that becomes more newer, you know, it becomes definitely then it becomes police procedural if you're making it very realistic, right? Because let's face it, a lot of the thrillers that we have, which are the psychological twist come from the left field, so they don't make sense or they're the gimmickry of structure, right? Where structurally you do it such a way that Oh, you have the voice of somebody that you know, in the middle of the novel die. And then the novel begins again. Or you realize, Oh, you thought it was this person who was, you know, actually narrating the novel, but it's somebody else. But I liked that. It has its audience that has its audience, but that wasn't what I was trying to do with this novel, I may do that, you know, just for the fun of, you know, for the flavor of just masticating, that kind of that gimmickry of structure, I might do it. I'm actually experimenting with something like that right now. But police procedural is what gave me that, you know, it's that white canvas that a megalopolis a very layered, nuanced megapolis, which, where there are slums, and then there on Barney's live in Mumbai, and then there's you and me, all of that, right. So yeah, that could fit into the body of a psychological thriller.

Michelle D'costa  40:56

Yeah. And I think the trope of sort of showing us this, like, for example, like I said, red tape, something as simple as bureaucracy, you know, to to make it come out in a way that shows you that it's an everyday thing, it's not unusual, it happens every day. And I think you managed to do that, because the way these characters have conversations, it's like, as if I'm asking you what you had for tea, you know, it's almost as usual as that and what I find very interesting is, like you said, you first actually wrote it, you know, with the intention of publishing in the West. So, what was that? Like? That means, you know, we know that the book is just out in India, but it has seen I think it's been out for a year in the US. So, what was the reception been like? And what was it like finding a publisher there, please

Damyanti  41:38

share with us? Well, before finding a publisher, I think I found my agent. So that was that was big, because my first agent I broke up with them on during COVID. So just before COVID began, I broke up with my agent and then in the middle of COVID as agentless and I have to begin searching for an agent again and with you beneath your skin, I refuse to make any compromises you beneath your skin in some ways, has totally you know, it is it is authentic to the point of like obsession. So as much as I could make it and as a as a new writer and as not a very talented writer. I try I was like fumbling with you beneath your skin. By the time I came to the blue bar. My ambition was to try and sell something in the West not because of Yeah, of course, money. But you know, money is okay. Because you know, I You cannot be a writer unless you are supported by someone. My husband subsidizes my life. So really didn't mean

Michelle D'costa  42:44

it's been. Yes, yes. And you're being very honest and open about it. Yeah.

Damyanti  42:49

I mean, facts are facts, right? I mean, people said, you need your skin. Oh, you're donating all the money. So noble of you. And I said, Yeah, I'm donating all the money because I have enough to eat. If I was surviving on the mud proceeds of that novel, I don't know if I would have done I don't know, right? You only when the rubber meets the road, you know, when you go to the cemetery at night, you know what you feel about ghosts? You don't know that when at midday, in the middle of, you know, extended luncheon with 100 people. You don't know that, right? So for me, I was very determined with one thing is that I wanted to learn from an editor in the West because I found that the my publishing experienced in India did not teach me anything. I did not learn something that I didn't already know. Whereas already with the blue bar, I have learned so much because I editor she gave me like she's like, Oh, your novels pretty clean this that blah, blah, blah. Why don't you do this? Like this is the shortest edit letter. And I'm like, yeah, and she's like, well, let's chop off the first 1/4 of the novel, and then take it and feed it into the rest of the novel. So I did exactly that. And that taught me so much. And it taught me so much about how we approach structure in Asia and how we approach you're in the West, because the way we approach structure in India, for example, is like the Mahabharata, right? So the MaHA it that is literally the template for our structure or even their mind. So we have so many things that are simmering, simmering, simmering, simmering, simmering, and the simmer, simmer, simmer, simmer, simmer, and then everything explodes. And then everything shuts down. That's our structure. That's how our movies go. If you go into any of these movies, most of it is like everything is happening. So people are preparing for something and then in the end, something digital film scene happens right? And then finish like in two minutes, one song and they put Mala and all that and it's done. The police comes after the heroes are beat up the villains and after the the beleaguered villains are like that, and then the police come to to to and take them away. But that is the structure of storytelling in India, because we like to establish everything. We like to establish the character, the setting, these are there, all of that needs to happen. And then we have the room. And that's how we tell our stories. And there's nothing wrong with telling us stories that way. But I wanted to learn the other kinds of stories storytelling, because I was like, What is this? Why is it that they're able to have Action from the first page? You know, even in our stories, we have action, but our action does not like it was not whoop at that pace. Why is how is it that they're able to do it delayed? Yes, yeah, no, for us, we we characterize, we show the setting, and then we have action? For them? The action shows the character and this Yeah, right. That's the difference. Right. And I wanted to, you know, for a writer, you're always curious, right? And I'm thinking, how can I learn that and once I've learned that, it's not necessary that throughout my life, I'll keep writing thrillers, I would write other stuff. In fact, I am writing other stuff. But whatever I've learned there, I can bring it into my writing and, you know, put it into my story. So it doesn't have to be that I kind of blindly take the Western structure, the three act structure, the five act structure, the seven act structure and just copy it put it like a template. No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, you learn the rules, and then you break them in an interesting way. Because you know, you're already steeped in Indian storytelling, that I did not need someone else to teach me right. Yeah.

Michelle D'costa  46:48

Yeah, yeah. So

Damyanti  46:49

so yeah. So that is, that's, that's really where I'm at, for visa vie the western audience is that I want to learn that kind of storytelling. Also, I want to be, I liked the fact that I'm aware of my audience now. Because, you know, it is okay to have hubris as an author if you're writing literally stories, because literary stories are about the internal internalization of the conflict, it is about what's happening inside. And the change that could happen could be very miniscule. And it's about provoking thought, but a genre reader is not coming there to be provoked into thought, Who is the genre reader, genre reader is like you or me when we are exhausted? Yeah, you want to be entertained by like, we need an escape, we want to escape. So that's not where we need to be told, you know, this is what the in whatever of life is like, you need to be hook, hook, catch, keep. So that's what genre is about. And this reason why, you know, a lot of literary authors have done very well in the West, but not a lot of genre authors, even books, which have got tremendous advances did not sell very well, because you have this barrier, right? That they have to learn another culture. And, you know, because we were colonized, we always had to learn about someone else's culture. When I was eight years old, I was learning about root beer, which I wouldn't see like, almost 20 years ago, I didn't know what the what is the root beer. I didn't. But I was, you know, learning about root beers. And I was like learning about heats and hedgerows and what the hell is like a fence and what are blueberries? Yeah, like the

Michelle D'costa  48:36

white picket fence that you read about right? Yes. What

Damyanti  48:39

is it? Have I seen a blueberry? Whatever fields of blueberries have I gone blueberry picking? Have I made blueberry pies with my mom? No. But I'm trying to put myself in that place. I am trying to learn French words. I'm learning Bildungsroman and SHODAN fraud. Why? Because for me, my very survival depends on you know, on in a colonized country to go ahead, you have to, you know, the struggle issue is is the fact that you have to somehow make a life for yourself. And English is how you make it so we are forced to understand the other and the other is more powerful. Now for somebody who's in the States. They have no compulsion to understand this because that's the universe this is America for most Americans. Yeah, almost 99% of Americans there's nothing behind the American shores. You know, they call it the world championships of I don't know what baseball like the whole world plays baseball. I don't even know what baseball is right cricket we call it World Championships, but more than one country plays it. Come on, come on, you know. You know what? This

Michelle D'costa  49:50

is really funny. Yeah. Because actually the like, you know, with baseball, especially when I came across that in books, right. When I started reading American writers, I often wondered what is This game, it sounds so exotic. I have never seen this game being played. You're right. And I think I think more than knowing about someone's culture and being colonized and all of that I feel as a writer, it is definitely, it's about wanting to evolve, wanting to grow, and wanting to just explore different ways of storytelling. And I think that's what you've done. As you said,

Damyanti  50:20

I'm trying to do, I will circle back, I will circle back, but not before, you know, there aren't very many MFAs, which will teach you novel writing, you can take an MFA, it'll teach you how to write a short story it does, how to write a genre novel. And that's something I can only learn by doing, or only learn by being edited. Like my agent is very editorial, my editor is obviously editor. So it's about that process. And it's, er, it's true that I took away a whole lot of Indian words, wherever I code you, beneath your skin has a lot more Indian words than the blue bar does. But then I also made that conscious choice because, you know, if I, if I if I put myself saying if I'm reading a Nigerian book, for example, and if I'm forever only thinking of those terms, and then I'm not getting into the book, and I mean, you know, Yes, true. It is I have made compromises. And I have said, you know, okay, fine, I'll take out this in Hindi word and put in this English word. But those are things that I've done very, very consciously, we'll say, you know, you sold yourself. Yeah, I've sold myself because I wanted to learn something. No, and I. And

Michelle D'costa  51:34

in fact, I had the opposite experience, honestly, definitely. Because the the kind of balance that you laid out. For me, as an Indian reader, I enjoyed, I actually enjoyed the balance of Hindi with English. And it sort of felt very natural, because of course, we all you know, kind of speak English. And, and you do see the slip of language here. And then And definitely, it felt more thought out. But it kind of made the process very smooth. So I mean, even as Indian readers, I don't think we're missing out on any

Damyanti  52:03

more broad because that's where I told my agent, I said, that's where my craft comes in. Because my craft is not just about respecting my characters, my craft is also about respecting my readers. So I have to respect them both equally. So in respecting my characters, I cannot forget my readers, and in respecting my readers, I cannot forget my characters, so they have to be in balance. And that's where Minecraft comes in. That's where, you know, what I can do my skills come in, and those are have only begun, right, I've only begun writing now. So

Michelle D'costa  52:34

yeah, yeah, no, and I just, I think this, this makes me very curious about your childhood WLC. Because now we definitely we have seen you grow, you grow so much as a writer in the past 10 years, right? I mean, with with your first book with this book, you know, it just you sort of enjoy the craft, and you're learning on the job, like you said, not not to work, cause I'm so I'm very curious to know, you know, when you were a child, you also mentioned that you've always been intrigued by, you know, lives behind the faces, sort of like you've always wanted to know, you know, the real story, the contrast between appearances and reality. So, you know, what is really mean? Could you please share an anecdote from your childhood, when this contrast really came across to you. I mean, it could be silly, it could be anything. I sort of want to see what you observed when you were a child.

Damyanti  53:21

When, well, when I was a child, I think my love for storytelling came from my grandmother, who was a who became I think, a mother at 13 years old, who miscarried at 18 years old, who was not educated and yet daughter's self how to read and write and wrote excellent poetry, who wrote the entire Mahabharata and the entire Roman inverse in Bengali for us, handwritten, and she hand wrote the whole thing. And when I read some of her poetry, now, I'm able to understand what she said, you know, because obviously, I could not even understand her New Year's greetings that she sent me in Bengali because they are the so soaked in meaning. So, and I lost my grandmother when I was I think nine or 10 years old. And she she taught me what I think I, I think that that was my first or it still is, I think, my foundational thought process about something like that. And she said, you know, and she told me that I'm going to die, I have cancer, and I'm sending you away, and I'll die in like a week by the time you come back, I'll not be there. And, and I said, how, you know, I was flabbergasted and she's like, you've been reading to the Gita to me and I was you know, she taught me how to read the script. So I could she she retained the data by heart entire at the eye, you know, whenever the pain of the cancer was too much, there's not enough painkillers and she would tell me, you know, okay, tell me what what was the choker so I'll turn the page Ah because she can't see so I will read it to her. And she said you know what sounds good you nanny at Harvey higher, which means like this is the body is like old fluids. And that is like taking a bath and changing and wearing new clothes. You know how you go to your to the washroom and your mother washes you. And we lived in a very small house in a very small really really small place right like our two room really tiny place and my grandmother would be there. And there was the space between you know, we used to have these tall Goodridge Almaraz, which I think everybody would recognize. And we had these shelves on which they were gods and icons and you know, flour and sandalwood and there was this corner, small space between the two. And at three year old or five years old, I would just, you know, I would want to wear my clothes there. So I would go to the bathroom wearing dark clothes, and then I don't want to wear my clothes in that corner. So she said just as you wear those corners, you know, your your clothes you change. So it's just like that, you know, you go into a dark corner after you've taken your bath. And you wear new clothes with the gods watching. And to me, that was I think my education in life. In, in, in storytelling in metaphor. In in everything really so I kind of for the longest time I resisted it because, you know, used to tell me Oh, you write very well Oh, English come so naturally to you. But in life. As you're taught in a middle class household, you're taught that you have to make a lot of effort to succeed, right? That's something so I thought English was very stupid because you know, I automatically I taught classes automatically I wrote essays automatically. All of that was like it was as easy as like, as my dad would say drinking a glass of water. So I used to do it and I never valued it. So yeah, to me, my my childhood definitely was definitive in because after I lost my grandmother, I I was a quiet child, I would read books. My dad had like the entire show, he would let me read all of Shakespeare. So by the time I was 15, or 16, I had finished reading all of Shakespeare, whether I had understood it or not, is a different question altogether. But so all of that you know, and even you're an introverted child in a small town whose father loves reading, who has no friends and was forever pressured to, you know, study physics and chemistry, which she cannot understand. So I used to read books even you know, as reading Anna Karenina, I remember my mom whacked me nicely because I think it's 13 or 14 Reading Anna Karenina behind the chemistry book. So obviously like all Indian mother, she came and she whacked me, but that is a you know, that is a that is a fiction, I think takes hold a few stories take hold of you. Yeah, that's I think it's in your childhood.

Michelle D'costa  58:03

Really, that's such a moving moving story that you shared, especially about your grandmother, I'm sure that that has looked at one of the formative experiences of you becoming a storyteller, and we can see that now. I'm sure that you're she's watching and seeing you expand your your service horizon as a storyteller, okay, so we have gone to the next round in the interview, which is a short fun quiz. Okay, I will be giving you three options. You have to pick one. Okay, if you had to pick another color for Tara Sally, what would it be? A green B Red Sea pick

Damyanti  58:44

Well, I guess off the three it would be red.

Michelle D'costa  58:46

Oh, red. Okay, nice. I'm sure it would it would be a showstopper on the station.

Damyanti  58:51

Of the three it would be rad. Yeah, yes.

Michelle D'costa  58:55

Okay. If not a dance bar. What would have the alternate location be for your character Tara? A the zoo? Be a parlor see a college campus? Definitely

Damyanti  59:07

the parlor. The girls who work at the palace also lead very liminal lives. So yes, for sure. I could see that as an alternate career. Okay,

Michelle D'costa  59:18

all right. One Indian thing that the West can't have enough of a saris be food. See the streets.

Damyanti  59:28

The sea is what streets

Michelle D'costa  59:31

the roads. Okay, no, it's like you know, a cow crossing

Damyanti  59:36

is definitely the food. I've often been told that. You know, after they read the book, they all want to eat Mumbai street food and they end up ordering Indian food immediately after Wow.

Michelle D'costa  59:46

Okay. All right. This is the last one. One thing that you loved about the Indian train stations, a announcements, be the dressing styles. See the faces

Damyanti  59:59

the Have faith in us. Well, I think it's the crowd. So I guess Yeah, the faces, I'm enlisting study faces and never lose interest in faces. Sure.

Michelle D'costa  1:00:12

Okay, all right. So this brings us to the last round of the interview, which is the rapid fire round. Up on answered, you could answer in one word, or one sentence. Okay, no thinking about, okay. All right, one destination that you would want to set your book in the future.

Damyanti  1:00:41

As in a book, in the future or mind

Michelle D'costa  1:00:44

that you will write in something that you might write in the future. Where would you want to set it? That destination that you've not covered before?

Damyanti  1:00:55

Yeah, I think someday I would really like to write a novel set on the gods of Varanasi. Okay, into like pandemics in one place. Yeah, I'd love to stay for a whole year in Varanasi. Just look at life. Just observe life, observe death. And write a novel. I

Michelle D'costa  1:01:16

would I would really recommend you to read this new book. The fire on the Ganges by I have

Damyanti  1:01:22

it i It's fine. Yeah, Radhika, younger. I have it on my list. And I'm waiting for, you know, some when I'm a little bit more settled to read it. I already have.

Michelle D'costa  1:01:33

Right. Okay. One thing that you do to unwind after a long days of writing?

Damyanti  1:01:40

Well, well, up. Even two years ago, I would have been quite embarrassed to say this, but I think it's Korean serials. Now I watch cable Oh, cable? Yes. Because I think during COVID, it brought home to me the safety of a Kdrama when the world is going everywhere. You know that in the world of Kdrama. Even the saddest of sad things, even death would be softened. So I do watch Kdrama to unwind sometimes. Okay,

Michelle D'costa  1:02:11

nice. One reader's comment from the US that has stayed with you just one line or one phrase?

Damyanti  1:02:19

I don't know, there are so many comments, I don't really remember. But I remember I think one time that they had this, you know, I had sort of a book launch for the blue bar. And somebody read out a very famous author, she read out the first chapter of the book, and the readers were like, I couldn't talk because I was in the background, right? How it happens in our Facebook Live. And one reader I remember, commented there like, it felt as if I was sweating on inside that station inside that Mumbai station. Like I was there, like people were shoving me and I could smell everything. And I could, you know, I could just experience it. And I felt good about that. Because that's what I wanted to do. I was like, at least one reader gets.

Michelle D'costa  1:03:16

Yeah, like they're there in the US. But she said,

Damyanti  1:03:20

I've never been to India, and I don't think I ever will get to go to India, but I felt like I was there. And she's been following me ever since. So she's now Facebook friends and it struck it's it's stuck with me, I think.

Michelle D'costa  1:03:37

Okay, one characteristic of partner or Tara that you wish you had in your life

Damyanti  1:03:46

that I wish I had. Well, in the case of Tara how forgiving she is, I think entirely forgiving. In some ways for whatever she goes through. She forgives a lot she she because if she does not forgive a lot of things do not happen. So I wish that I could be that forgiving because sometimes I struggle to forgive even though I know I must forgive. But I struggled to do it. Yeah.

Michelle D'costa  1:04:16

Okay. One thing that you would want to tell writers who want to write genre novels.

Damyanti  1:04:24

It sounds very stupid. But I would say write a story from beginning to end because a lot of people begin a novel and then it's a shiny new thing and they never finish it. They remain in limbo for very long. My advice to any author beginning to write anything is just beginning an initial draft. After you're finished it. Yeah, then you know, then you know, but do not talk before you finished it. So finish finish whatever you're trying to do. Just finish a draft. Great.

Michelle D'costa  1:04:58

Okay, so The last question is, what is your next book? About? When is it coming out?

Damyanti  1:05:06

I'm not sure. So there are about three books right now in the mix. So I don't know, depends on which one sells first and it comes out. And the book I'm editing right now is, is about mother and daughter who have had a relationship with the same man. So that's what that's

Michelle D'costa  1:05:31

interesting what I really, really enjoyed this conversation. The main theme again, I mean, as our listeners know, this is the second time we have run the podcast and absolutely enjoy it. I do hope that you end up writing so many more thrillers, and that you get to get you know, have your books in other countries, not just the US but in other countries as well. So thank you, you know, it was a very interesting conversation.

Damyanti  1:05:55

Thank you so much, Michelle. I always enjoying I always enjoy chatting with you and you know, coming on bound because you You ask questions, not just for the reader, but also the writer. So to have all both those perspectives, it's always a pleasure talking about both so thank you so much for having me.