6.2 Devashish & Nidhi: Enter The Psyche Of Indian Psychological Thrillers

What happens when two women find themselves in the midst of horrendous crimes? 

Join us as Tara and Michelle speak to two avid thriller writers– Devashish Sardana and Nidhi Upadhyay. In this episode, Devashish discusses his book “The Girl with Broken Dreams”, a story of a feisty CBI investigator who finds herself in a quest for the truth behind a string of suicides, while battling her own demons. And Nidhi Upadhyay talks about her book “I Hear You”, a story of a woman trapped in an abusive marriage, and how she starts talking to the baby in her womb- only to find him responding! 

In this exclusive series in partnership with Penguin Random House India, we will shine a spotlight on two compelling contemporary voices each month, individuals who are reshaping the landscape of Indian literature. 

Tune in to hear how they started their thriller-writing journey, how they kept finding their way back despite having day jobs, and the concerning contents of a thriller writer’s search history! 

Books and authors mentioned in this episode:

The Silence of the Lambs - Thomas Harris

And Then There Were None - Agatha Christie

Gone Girl - Gillian Flynn

Godaan - Munshi Premchand

Where the Crawdads Sing - Delia Owens

Movies and TV shows mentioned in this episode:

Misery - Stephen King (Director- Rob Reiner)

Mahabharata - B.R. Chopra

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Chapters

• 0:00 Books & Beyond Intro
• 0:33 Introduction to Devashish and Nidhi
• 51:09 Books & Beyond Outro

Transcript

Michelle D'costa  00:01

 Hi, everyone. Welcome back. Tara and I are super passionate about thrillers and we often discuss thrillers and you know why we like them. So today we have two very talented authors with us whose books have become bestsellers. We are going to be unpacking the whole world of Indian psychological thrillers with them. Also, please exercise caution while listening to this episode because it covers so many sensitive topics like mental health, suicide, cancer, and gaslighting among artists.

Tara Khandelwal  00:35

Okay, so we really liked the two books and the two authors that we're interviewing today. And one of the topics is what women and women have been portrayed differently across thrillers from being dark and deranged, to being victims to being vulnerable and being strong badass investigators and the heroine of Nydia Barajas latest book, I hear you mihika is one such woman. So the story goes like this mihika is hoping that a baby will breathe new life into her dead marriage. But all of our pregnancies needs the same fate. Because no baby is perfect for her husband, Shiva, who is a genius geneticist until there is one Rudra, the world's first genetically altered fetus, and he is Shivam perfect creation. And Monica has lost hope. So the question is, does Rudra help her escape her marriage? And how reliant Is she on her child to say well, and I could not keep this book down?

Michelle D'costa  01:38

Yeah, and on the other hand, we have another page turner by the way, she says Donna whose main female lead, Simone Singh, is one of the most gutsy female investigators I've come across. So we know that this detective is actually inspired by David. She's a lifelong affair with thriller fiction and his passion for suspenseful cinema and his own struggles with mental health as a kid. Um, so Simone actually encountered a really strange case, in her tenure as an investigator, where she finds young girls were turning up dead with a box in their hand sent to them by someone really mysterious, called the dream catcher. And most of the people think that these are suicides, but we actually read to find out if they are really suicidal if there's something more sinister in the background. So will you be able to crack this case without affecting her own sanity? She has her own dark paths. She has her own battles to fight through, will she be able to do all of this by herself?

Tara Khandelwal  02:36

So welcome. They have Ashish, and the and let's crack the code of successful psychological thrillers, both of you.

Nidhi  02:45

Thank you so much, Michelle, and Tara, for having us over.

Devashish  02:50

Thank you, Tara. Thank you, Michelle. Super excited to be here. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa  02:54

I'm really excited as well, because I think thrillers is one of our favorite genres. Right, Tara? So before we begin, uh, you know, I just really wanted to know, how did you both actually get into the world of psychological thrillers? Where did it all begin? And what according to you makes a successful psychology concern?

Devashish  03:24

So. So, for me, it was actually a very simple choice. I grew up reading a lot of thrillers and mystery books. And I just love drama and I just love you know, an author or even if I watch movies, it's always thriller movies where I love the director, just pulling the rug from under my feet. So I love just love that feeling. I love the feeling of you know, putting together a puzzle. So So for me, it was a very clear choice of it has to be a thriller. So my first book actually was a fantasy thriller wasn't a psychological thriller. But I realized that I gravitate more towards you know, books where characters are internally motivated. And what I mean by that is usually in thrillers you you have you know, it's a plot driven a lot of triggers a plot driven because it's about you know, solving that mystery solving the puzzle. Action, something's happening, you know, the detective is trying to chase down the criminal. So it's, it's very plot driven, and it's okay to have characters who are shallow. I'm going on a limb there, but it's okay. What for me makes you know psychological thriller standout is you really have to delve in deeper into the psyche of the characters and bring that out because that's where the most Ovation legs. So So yeah, for me, I just love that aspect of combining strong characters with the plot that a thriller demands and love writing psychological service.

Michelle D'costa  05:16

So, you know before need the answers. I'm curious, did he because you said you like character driven psychological thrillers who's the you know, your favorite? I would say I think antagonist if I'm not wrong one was your favorite antagonist in any thriller that you either watched or read so far.

Devashish  05:34

See, for me, I'll tell you, I saw this movie. And then later I read the book. You know, I'll be honest, and silence of the lands. Right. And for me, I, I saw the movie and the whole time I was so you know, I'm not sure attracted is the right word. But, but for me, the the antagonist was such a strong character, I was almost rooting for the antagonist. And later, I realized that and why is that? Right, and it made for me, it made the story just so much richer. So so that was one.

Michelle D'costa  06:18

Collector, right? For listeners who haven't seen The Silence of the Lambs series, it's actually based off a series of books, and Hannibal Lecter, even according to me, is one of the most interesting antagonists I've ever come across.

Devashish  06:33

So, in fact, I'll tell you, even when I was writing, my, the first book in the Simone series, it's called the girl in the glass case, I started of course, Simone was a character, and I really wanted to start with, you know, woman, empowered, kick ass woman like that. That was that had to be my protagonist. But on the other hand, I also wanted a kick as antagonist who was a woman, or in this case, a trans woman, right. But I started with that character first. Because I really wanted the antagonist to have deep, strong, you know, motives that readers could connect with and root for. Because then once you connect with an antagonist, you know, then it's almost, because you're, you're rooting for both. And then who wins? And that just makes the story so much richer and so much. You know, from the trailer standpoint, so much suspense. Cool. So

Michelle D'costa  07:40

yeah, Nikki, what about you? So

Nidhi  07:43

for me, Michelle, and Tara, leading psychological thrillers per se, would start back when I first read, and then there were none by Agatha Christie. Back then we did not have psychological thrillers, as a genre, it was more of like, who done it. And that's when I realized what it means to playing with the psyche, by all of them being in a house and trying to find who has done what someone has done, right. So later on, we had these Gone Girl and other things coming into picture other books that categorized as domestic toy or a psychological thriller. So my first love was gotta Christie when it comes to reading or writing, I still go back to the same god of mystery. And that's how it started. But like they were, she said, it became more and more intense, the love for psychological thriller, when I understood the psyche behind people and how to kind of use it or manipulate it for creating fear, or a crime by it is done. So it kind of helps us to write a mystery with layers. And that's how the psychological thriller part started attracting me in the books. Of course, God girl cannot be missed, you cannot be missed in terms of books. And again, on the side where the negative character comes and you get sent to the brain of the negative character. Understanding the motivation, or the back story is what makes a psychological thriller, the most engaging psychological thriller, when you are understanding and getting into the head of a person, whether it's a protagonist or the antagonist.

Michelle D'costa  09:26

Yeah, and I just I'm a big fan of psychological thrillers. You know, Tara often wonder she's like, Michelle, how do you manage to

Tara Khandelwal  09:35

read his books and it really she really watches that the darkest things of people doing so many disturbing

Michelle D'costa  09:44

and really made me made me think about you know, like you said, they were she's what is it and using the word attraction, so it just feels very, you know, I would say very wrong here. But yes, it is. It is that sort of like, you know, seeing seeing the extent to which so people can go to and the way they can behave in certain situations. And I think one one movie comes to mind. And this, again, is based off a book, I think most of my favorite films are based off books where, you know, this is misery by Stephen King. And you know, for for the students who have not seen it or not read the book, I don't want to give much spoilers, but there is this woman who is a fan of this writer, and she actually kidnapped him one day. And what I liked was it actually flipped or subverted this, this trope of how men usually men are, you know, stalkers or all of that when you're it was this woman and, and the extent to which you can go to, to sort of, you know, capture this writer in her house. It was it was just mind blowing. And I feel there are so many more rich thrillers that sort of unpack, unpack, you know, the the sort of Darkest Minds, you know, in the, I would say, human psyche. But before we unpack different kinds of probes. You know, I wanted to know more about both of you, because I know that both of your first books were also bestsellers, your current books are just sort of getting off the charts. You know, and I know that there are not many thrillers, which are published in India, especially not through traditional publishing. You know, I know it's a small world, but I don't want to assume that you both know each other. I want to know, have you read each other's work?

Devashish  11:24

Oh, yes, yes. Maybe? And I know each other we? We've known each other now, maybe? What, a couple of years ago? I think this was, so we share the theme editor at Penguin. Goodwin and and Goodwin was the one who, you know, introduced us because both of us write thrillers and like you said, there were a few Indian authors in the thriller genre. So So yes, we we go back a couple of years. We both incidentally, live in Singapore. So So yeah, so we stay in touch. And yes, we we read each other's books as well. MIDI, in fact, was beta reader for my latest book, The Girl with broken dreams, and I can't thank her enough for your valuable feedback. And

Michelle D'costa  12:20

actually, don't need me I know what what did you suggest which sort of made into the final version of the book,

Nidhi  12:28

I think it was already perfectly written, there was nothing in it in it, because he has a very good understanding of characters and how to sketch them. So there was nothing I could have done, other than enjoying the book, and getting out of my reading slump, because we write so much. And there is so much research to do that fiction takes a backtrack in terms of reading. And I had written to him after finishing the book that thanks for taking me out of my reading slump, because I had stopped reading fiction completely to write. So they will she shows that

Tara Khandelwal  13:02

I think that's the biggest compliment, right? For a writer who gives the book of to Vita, you know, and the book comes back, I mean, the betta who says, I'm done that way, the book is really good. You know, they're taking that much time to read a book. It is that, oh, it's hard to get through. So that's the biggest compliment. And it's okay, that you guys know each other, maybe you can maybe go write something in the future. But before we get to that, you know, I also wanted to find out about your backgrounds, because you don't come from writing backgrounds. Maybe you are a headhunter. Sure I am a graduate, you know. So and both of you are so passionate about psychological thrillers. So can you tell a remote viewer, can you tell us a little bit about your childhood and how you got introduced to stories in the first place? And how did the writing journey then come about? Going?

Nidhi  13:56

So with me, Michelle, and Tara that simple, very simple reason why I started reading was that I was a HELOC. Child, my parents were working. And summers were the most difficult times when we were locked at home because being a girl, you will not allow to move around. So what she did was she would go and bring a few books. And I'm not talking about, you know, males and bones. I'm talking about hardcore Hindi Sahitya, which is governed Gaudin, by munchie prehension. Because my giving just a bit of background on it. My mom is a Hindi literature educated in that and is a graduate. So she was the one who introduced me to these fiction which had very strong characters. And I had that as my, you know, only passion in terms of growing up. And then I realized that I write as well and more of therapy or, you know, expressing my feelings as they say that authors feel very keenly about anything. So if I'll find with my brother, I would write down a poem about him. If I was happy about something I would write, again, a poem. So people started gradually noticing that I'm expressing my emotions using words rather than going and confronting anyone, which was the era I was being brought up that women were not allowed, or were not encouraged to say what they wanted to say I was studying in a convent school. Still, there was there was a lot of discrepancy, I must say in terms of what was taught and what was actually practiced. So it started there. And then I remember I was in grade 10, I had secured really well in my exams. And I picked physics, chemistry, maths as my subjects. So my mama who was in Lucknow, he took a train and came to my hometown, and told me, you're making the biggest mistake of your life. And he used to call me Coventry, because he used to compare it with Maha Devi Verma. And he would say that, you know, you will find engineers in every house, you won't find poets and writers everywhere. So don't miss out on the talent you have. But at that point of time, getting financial independence, standing on my feet was very important for me. And I knew that a by writing a book or being art graduate, won't cut it, not in that era. So I decided to stay where I was. And as kind of like for two years studied physics, maths, chemistry, there was nothing about writing anything, then I went to engineering college. And then the passion again, caught up with me, in terms of like writing scripts for the hospital night or the school, or doing some kind of competitions in terms of poetry competition, then they started noticing my talent, however, again, went back to Job had kids, the only medium that stayed in terms of writing was writing one poem for my husband for anniversaries. Now, he collected a few like 15 odd years, and then he and yes, I won't deny any time I would fight, I would give it back in words and a time I did not like anything about anyone I would write it in a diary. So, he knew that I was upset now to code it was to decode is very difficult, easier, where it was to find my diary and read what I felt. So, it kind of became the media and then for good, like 1516 years, he kept on saying write something, then as you said, the am graduates have a new profession sideline that they write, like current massage, and, you know, others, Chetan Bhagat, so he was bitten by the same bug, he said, You should write, I cannot write, but you should write and you should not waste your talent. It is it is the era when I was kind of looking for a job after my younger one. So he said you should write I ignored it. He said again, then I said, don't drop your midlife crisis on me. I don't want to write I want to go back to work full time work. And then he said, You just give yourself three months and write something that is when I first wrote the first actual novel without thinking of publishing or anything. And that was I hear you, and I wrote it. I had no clue what I was writing. But I knew that if I'm reading thrillers, I would write something. I had an idea which was growing in my mind. And then I rotate. And after that there was a long, torturous, I must say, journey to get published. But here I am. Accidental writer, I must say, I would

Michelle D'costa  18:37

say thanks to your uncle, who took the train journey daily, it's not common to come across relatives who actually support the arts. So it really kudos to your uncle, and then, of course, to your husband for pushing you in the right direction.

Tara Khandelwal  18:48

Yeah. So what about you, Dave? Ashish?

Devashish  18:57

Yeah, so for me, I grew up around stories. And as, as most kids, it gets to, it started with my grandmother, you know, my daddy, and it's so needy, she, she was actually in the, you know, school teacher as well. So something else we have in common, you know, the family. But my daddy, she used to tell me stories, right, like, as grandmothers do, and the one story I absolutely loved, and wanted her to tell me again and again was the Mahabharata. So much so that once you know the, the BR Chopra series came out, you know, I would watch that series, on real on on a loop again and again and again. And what what stood out for me, because again, this was my first test with with the literature, you know, right. Where X See the female characters. Because now, again, literature, a lot of times, reflects the times, right? And it is Mahabharata is quite patriarchal in that sense, but I loved some of the female characters, you know, in the Mahabharata be it you know, drop these resilience, or couldn t is resourcefulness or even, you know, Gandhari strength, when, you know, she's she's asked to she she herself blindfolds herself as as an act of solidarity. And, and for me, this was a time when this was the literature that started influencing me, then it was my mother. And, and again, you know, when I was in school, unfortunately, you know, my parents separated and so I grew up with a single mom, who is, you know, who who raised three kids. So again, seeing the strength of a woman firsthand. And my sister, again, you know, who my eldest sister, who was, whose was like, my little mother, to me. And then when I got married, my wife who's was actually a super strong woman, very strong opinions go getter. She does what she wants. So growing up around strong women, is, I feel why I inherently you know, like, bringing those voices out in literature, because it's about celebrating that resilience, that confidence and the strength of women and portraying the times of today. That's to answer why, you know, more female centric voices in my knowledge this way. Now, the journey for me was a bit similar to what Nidhi was sharing with us. I actually, the last time I ever wrote anything was in high school. So the last time I ever wrote prose, or an essay was in high school, and that was because it was mandated. Yeah. And I have not written anything, like when did engineering when, when to ima started working? I'm a Marketing Brand Builder, you know, branding professional. And it was really, a few years into my job, you know, you have one of those days where you come back and you're like, why are you working? You know, what's the point of corporate life? And I remember and my wife, she, she's, she's very, very candid, very straightforward. And she was like, So what do you want to do? And I was like, I don't know why, but it's, I didn't know like, what I should do. And she saw my wife's answer to anything usually is make a list. Yeah. So anytime you're in doubt, make a list. And then actually, so I said, okay, so she said, Okay, just answer one question. If you did not have to work for a living, right? What would you do? And I remember I wrote, I sat down, wrote, you know, created that list. And that list only had one thing which was from left to right. She was like, yeah, you've you've sent me a lot of, you know, lovey dovey messages, but I'm not seeing you write prose, or anything. Why? And I just felt, I remembered that feeling of writing fiction. Back in school. I remember that. You know, just when I sit down and write and let my mind wander and imagine, I just absolutely love that. And my wife was so what's holding you back? But I don't have time. You know, like, everybody's busy and I'm busy. My job is demanding and loving. Yeah. So find time. Like, how do you find the time? And she said, wake up early. And that's what I do. This was seven years ago. And for the last seven years, I wake up early five to seven is my time. Yeah, so I try to separate my or keep my day job. And my you know, so to say hobby separate, but five to seven is my day. I wake up I write not not all on not every day, but most days. And yeah, that's, that was 70 As I go, and now it's three novels round, hopefully, one novel every, that's the goal. So yeah, that

Michelle D'costa  25:09

requires a lot of willpower, I know that I can never wake up. So, Bonnie, but I just love how supportive your spouses have been both of you, right? And then just sort of made me think of my own journey. So in my case, it has been my parents, I think there has not been a time where they haven't seen me writing. So sometimes my parents, in fact, asked me, you know, can't you do something else in life? Why can't you do something? Or which is more realistic? Like, you know, cooking? Don't you want to learn cooking for survival? And I say, No, I need writing for survival. It's just, I think, you know, like, if you love writing, nothing can keep you away from it. So even me, for example, I studied commerce, you know, MIDI, I was always raised with this, with this upbringing, saying that you don't need to have a day job, you need to earn your living. And, you know, as we know, even now, it's very difficult for Indian writers to earn, earn a living from writing. So I've always had a day job, and I've always tried to figure out a way to make writing work, you know, so yeah, I just, I love that both of you have sort of, you know, figured, finally, that you love writing and you do you know, anything to make that possible. That's really Yeah.

Tara Khandelwal  26:14

And, and the books are so exciting as well, right? So the like, I really love your character, the character mihika. And I hear you. And, you know, it's very interesting, because, as you mentioned, you know, she's pregnant, and she, the husband wants to perfect baby, and she feels like she's a victim of patriarchy. And, you know, we see her barely have any agency of her own, and what that does to her. And it's a very nuanced character. So can you tell us sort of the inspiration behind this multi layered character and all the things that are going in our head? And how has she found ourselves in this kind of a situation where she has this baby who's a sort of anomaly and a husband, who is a, you know, genetic genius?

Nidhi  27:05

So I act? It's a very interesting question. And I really have to look back how the character came into, you know, picture is that I had a story idea, which was that I wanted to read a book that was a thriller, you know, but a thriller that was not gory. And this is during the time of my pregnancy. Second baby that I really wanted to read something which was thrilling enough, but something that I could read with a baby within me. So I started thinking of looking for books that had a mother and a child's relationship. But we had horror in it. We had, you know, trailers in it, but there wasn't anything that would be, you know, digestible enough for six, seven months, pregnant lady, and now the need to read thriller was killing me. So I started thinking, what if a baby starts talking to the mother, now it stayed, I am not a writer, it stayed with me. And I thought, this is a great story idea, somebody would come up with this. And being a science student, being a logical person, getting into that picture where a baby will talk, the only logical explanation to that was genetic modification. It cannot be magical, because it won't sit well with me, it has to be a science fiction based story. So now I had to do my research in terms of like, what era I base it in, because if I put it in today's timeline, genetic modification has been done. Cloning has been done my own dad's organization in carnal head and cloning for the fellows and the cows. So I knew what was happening. And back then when I was in grade 12. So I knew I had to go beyond that. And that is when I took the character mihika to 1990s when she was growing up. So when you say the idea of feminism was still not there, terms like gas lighting mansplaining were not there. There wasn't the whole idea of a women asking for the rights. All she knew was to you know, stand up on her own feet, so that if something goes wrong, at least she has someone to support the kids. She has some form of money to support the kids. That was the only idea of feminism back then. Now she moves in that era of in 1998 and comes to us and she has left behind India progressing. She's left behind how the women in India are fighting for the rights. She has been stagnant there, where she left. So I wanted that character. I had a choice to make her kickass and you know, kind of fight and break the mold. And I had a choice to create a character that becomes a Phoenix arise rises from the ashes and become the feminist by Exploring her own, you know, strengths and weaknesses. So I picked the second one for the simple reason because I was talking about the era when actually women were wired wrong, that you just have to give, give give taking always came with a kid. So that is how the character became. So I had to make the character fall in love with sahih Shivam in a very, very different way. So it was completely in love so that she couldn't see anything, which is the case of every domestic No, I optimize that you keep on taking violence and keep on taking harrassment because you love the person, and you keep on giving chances, which was in staying with the character then came she was well educated so that she could stand on her feet. But I have lived out of India for 20 odd years to tell you this. There are certain level of degrees that don't work outside architecture that is and they are all well educated people, but they are doing jobs of attendance if they don't upgrade the skills. So it was a very, very real character if you're talking about my era, or today's era, so I created that weaving around those kinds of women who had actually sacrificed the entire, you know, BDS MDs, or even MBBS, because they cannot practice outside India. So that became my central idea of a character of an expert woman who's been, you know, whose wings have been cut for different reasons. And then how she finds herself, and then gathers the courage. And when you say, Tara, she was looking for the baby for strength. She wasn't actually she was giving strength to the baby, that I'm here for you. Because I will cross the road and cook and do everything possible to save you. So it was a mother's feeling that, you know, you can you can do whatever you want to do if you want to save your child is the emotion I explored in that particular character.

Michelle D'costa  32:00

Yeah, and I actually, you know, odd I was drawn to the book because I'm fascinated by medical thrillers, you know, apart from all the dark and disturbing stories that I consume, I think medical thrillers was my entry point towards thrillers, you know, to the whole psychological thriller genre. So Robin Cook's medical students was something I read back to back, I reread them, I consumed them, like, you know, like a virus. So I think for me, that's why I was drawn towards your book. And I think what would work for me was how realistic it was right? Like you said, because when you made her sort of a walk contemporary character, we might have not seen that manipulation, or we might have not seen all the things that she goes through in the book, you know, which makes me curious about your own character. They were huge, because, you know, I think I haven't seen many female investigators in books. So far. I grew up reading Nancy Drew, I remember borrowing Nancy two books on my library and, you know, wanting to see more of female investigators, but I do not see them, especially not in the Indian fiction world. So I want to know, what is the inspiration behind Simone, because in fact, you're also having a series, this is your second book in the series, I'm sure that you really love the character in order to you know, write a whole series and you even have another book coming out. So please tell us how you begin.

Devashish  33:10

Yeah. So for me, it had to be a female protagonist, and then exactly to what you said, the more thriller, and I've read a lot of thrillers and mysteries. Very few have female leads. And especially when it when it comes to crime thrillers, and I'm talking about, you know, especially maybe five years ago, now, more and more, we're seeing it in fiction, we're seeing it in TV dramas. But it wasn't the norm. Right. So so. So for me, as I was sharing my backstory, it was important to bring those voices and do my bit in influencing through literature. The, the whole point of the need to have strong, empowered females. And I would go as far as saying diverse voices, because as you'd see in both of my books, it's it's, it goes beyond just, you know, women empowerment to actually empowering anybody on a spectrum. Yeah. So, so I was very clear that needs to there needs to be a female protagonist. In fact, in the first book, we see two female leads. And that was intentional as well, because I felt why stop at one, right? It's because a lot of times we read novels where we have two male leads or a male and a female lead and the female is just to provide that romantic angle and which I felt was why, like, that's not her role just to you know to be the arm Ghandi To be honest, so, so why not have two female leads? And then you explore that, because when two females with very different personalities come together and are forced to work together. How do they do it? Right? So, of course, tensions and sparks fly with different kinds of sparks. It's not romantic, but it's how do they then come together? So that's that was why that was the reason I chose Simone. And again, for me, it was I was clear that Simone has to be flawed. Yeah, she, she, she's not the chosen one, you know, she's not like this, there's absolutely nothing wrong with her because she's not right, because we as human beings are flawed. Right, and stories need to portray reality. Otherwise, readers are going to reject it, etc. And they are not going to connect with the character, character. So in fact, in the second book, The latest one, the girl with broken dreams, we see that's the Mon who's lost her grandma, the only family she's ever had only and she's lost her. She's going through a mental turmoil. And she, she's, she's, she tried to take her own life. And which is where, especially in this book, I'm exploring the themes of, you know, mental health and suicides and young adults, specially who are terminally ill, that's, that's the, the bigger or the larger societal angle. But it was important to also look at it from an individual's point of view, right? And Simone kind of reflects that, because she's going through it herself, and how she is then battling her own mental demons, while solving this case, which is so interlinked with what she is going through. So yeah, that was that was the, the thought behind choosing her and putting her into difficult situations. And then to come out of those battles.

Tara Khandelwal  37:32

Yeah, I found the whole, you know, the book brought up so many questions, right, because you have these suicides, seemingly suicides of teenagers who have cancel. And it just makes you think, I mean, it makes you think of under terminally ill, right? So there's a lot of these like ethical issues that come up as well. And the question of euthanasia, all of those things. So I think the book had many layers in that way. And I just had a question for both of us that, you know, you're dealing with, especially in a psychological thriller, genre, you are dealing with, you know, these characters who are very dark, who have a lot of sort of issues, you know, so to say, and, obviously, are very different than, you know, what you guys are, like, in real life. I mean, these guys are, you know, a little bit of the spec of the spectrum of normal, if you look at a TV show, like you, which is also one of my favorite TV shows. That guy is like, I mean, he's Scottish. And I always wonder the person who's writing this character, you know, what, are they thinking it does it affect, like, does it start affecting you because you're with these, you're writing these characters. So you're obviously with these people for so many hours a day. So does that affect you as a person? Yeah.

Devashish  39:02

So, okay, so for me, there are two things. One, yes, it's absolutely necessary for any writer but there were word to get into the shoes of their characters, or shoes or heels or their characters like so the the biggest I would say, are the skill that we need to pick up is empathy. Because we need to empathize with our characters. We need to understand what they're going through. We almost need to become them. Yeah. Now, does that impact us? For me? I can. I can, of course speak for myself. Yes. Short answer is yes. There have been times when you no 5am. I'm sitting down writing and I'm trying because my character just lost someone. Or she's just gone through something. horrible. And that's how she's feeling. Yeah. Or in the shoes of the antagonist who is not going to, you know, murder someone. But I'm sitting there in the chair enraged, because I feel like doing it. But again, it's all happening in my head. So I understand that. But I need to let it unravel in my head. Because if I don't do that, I will never become one with the characters. At least that's how I think about it. Maybe How would you?

Nidhi  40:36

First of all, thank you, Tara for calling us normal. Because I think I doubt anyone. Trust me, when the first book came out, it's a story about four friends. And it's a story about you know, engineering, college and friends. And incidentally enough, I have four friends, which were a core group of, you know, friends in the engineering time, they started reading together the book, and everybody started thinking who's who, who's Natasha was Catherine, who's, you know, Ria. And they kept on guessing. And this Whatsapp group was so active that I forgot that today is the publishing day of my book, and they were discussing the book. And then after reading the entire book, they said, None of us are inside the book, and all of us are there. So that is what you become, after writing a book that you have every one of you and you're not stepping out or stepping in. For me, I have been living in and out breathing in and out. And it you know, when I hear you was launched, to answer your question, from someone who's looking at us from outside, a few of my friends called and said, what goes in your development? So what all can you think of? Where is it coming from? And how do you separate the two, raising two boys staying with two boys and a dog, I don't think I'm any less devil anymore. When I'm, I want to scare them, I have lots of stories that they will not come out of their role. So rarely I differentiate. Like he said, You need to empathize, you need to be the character. So with me, it's very difficult for me to cut off from the book. So it has for the entire day, somewhere in the back of my mind. But as you know, being a mom, it is easy to multi process. So one part of my brain keeps on working on the character. But I know where to draw the thin line between using that knife to cut the onion rather than slitting someone's throat is the thin line I draw. And I'm sure people around me have started being very scared. Trust me, I have to close the door of my room before I start writing. Because my search history I will one day definitely be caught by Singapore Police. I have searched things that I would like to mention on the podcast. So it's it's that dark, but it's separate from my real world.

Michelle D'costa  43:14

Yeah, I think I think the search history of writers is something people should never hold against us. I can never never use this activity, because you never know what your social and there have been instances in my case, as well. So I don't really write trailers, but no matter what I write, you know, he or she now I think people have sort of understood, okay, it's fiction. Earlier, I would get messages and say, Oh, Michelle, is this you? Are you okay? And I said, No, it's okay. Chill. It's fiction, you know, there's a reason it's fiction. So yeah, I do think that. And especially when, you know, writers who write on dark themes like this, they often joke that when people ask other writers, you know, is this autobiographical? Definitely, they can't ask thriller writers. Because

Nidhi  43:58

we know, interesting story to this is that I was doing some kind of research and I actually typed that, how long does it take for a baby to drown in the water, and I left the search like that, and 15 minutes later, the younger one who's 11 Now I was, this is for the current book. He walks in and he sees the search happening. And he's like, where are you drowning? So I said, just with your homework don't thing is so it is the kind of what do you say research that goes so living with boys teenager, and when they have their own minds, they really think the mom is a devil. So I

Tara Khandelwal  44:43

got it. I got it. I did what went through your child's

Michelle D'costa  44:48

so that's a scary moment. Oh, my God, I can't imagine.

Nidhi  44:53

So it's actually an opening scene of my next book, and that is where I was trying to understand how many minutes said Thanks. So I went into the details of how much how long will it take how many times a baby will come up? So I was reading all that. So it was scary for

Michelle D'costa  45:09

oh, gosh, in fact, in fact, you know, my next question is about scenes really, because I can imagine in like, you know, thrillers have to be written, fast paced, right? Every scene has to matter, you cannot have even one scene that sort of drags and sort of gets, you know, the attention away from the page. You can manage to do that, particularly fiction, but definitely not thrillers. So every scene has to be well thought out. And now I can imagine the research that you put in. So you know, there's one scene that is that is very vivid in my mind, or maybe, especially in your book, where, you know, mihika is a sort of home bound, because of her husband, and he's so manipulative, that he actually changes the lock every time and it feels so claustrophobic because she doesn't even get one second outside the house. So for me, my the most moving scene was when she's able to escape. And the first place she goes to is, you know, to search work, she wants to work, she needs a job, he wants to save enough money to buy the flight ticket, back home. So she goes to this restaurant, and you know, strangers sort of see this empathy for her, you know, strangers sort of come to her rescue in a place in Singapore, where nobody knows her, where her own husband is sort of, you know, doing this against her. So, I really want to know, which was your favorite scene from the book and why.

Nidhi  46:22

So, my favorite scene, as you said, my favorite scene from the book is similar to the one, but it is, towards the end of the story, probably I'm giving away a little bit of suspense. But she's locked. And in the heat of the moment, lots of things have happened. And we are reaching the climax of the story. And the baby inside, there was something that he shouldn't have heard, because it kind of puts him in a conflict, whether she is really his mother or not. And the mica, the mother starts thinking that he is heard. And it is about Dr. Grace, who's who comes into picture later in the story. And then she asked for the code, because the code has been changed. So she asked for the code. Now, this baby can communicate to the mother only by kicking the mother. So he would kick one time, that means one, five times means five. And they both have established a tandem, that every time the father would change the code, the kid would come to know and would, you know, kick and tell the code. Now in the, in the heat of the moment, when she wants to rush, she has the money, she has the resources to go away, she cannot open the door. And the father has changed the code, unknowingly, that zero would, you know, act as a barrier between her freedom and the entire thing. So he cakes Rudra cakes, telling the code. Mica doesn't get it because zero means nothing in a kid. So he gets, he thinks that he's trying to help the mother is not getting she's panicking. The mother thinks that he's not taking my site because he thinks somebody else is his mother. And the conflict that is created by the just the figure zero and how Rudra waits for maker to figure out that this is zero. And not panic is one of my favorite scenes. The other one, which is equally favorite is the feminist part of mihika actually taking a physical, you know, Boyland anger when she destroys the lab, and she throws everything apart, killing the, you know, fetus in the incubator, and creating a mess, which is like a contained rage, which knows no bounds and starts, you know, showing the first sign of strength in a very physical form was the second most favorite but writing it, I think, writing feminine, more of Mohaka taking that leap was my most favorite scene,

Tara Khandelwal  48:57

when even as you're narrating this now over the edge of my seat. And there she is, there are so many moments like that in your book. Also, some of my favorite scenes are when Simone who is the lead female investigator is spending time with a therapist, Dr. And it's because of the way that you portrayed the character, right? Like, we don't know if she's a suspect in the case that Simone is investigating. We don't know whether she's a good person, and she's just being a therapist and looking out for Simone, or is she a suspect. And in this session, Simone becomes quite vulnerable because she has her own disturbing past. And she has to come to terms with that when she's dealing with you know, this case so, so what is what was your favorite scene from the book and why?

Devashish  49:46

My favorite scene was actually the first one. And probably because I wrote it first. And this was the theme where I wrote the last word of the theme. And I could Right. Yeah. And probably that's why it's still, you know, remains close to my heart. So the it's the first scene basically we see this you know, 18 year old girl, she's, she's in her hospital room and she's received a box called the dream box. Yeah. And then there's a few things inside and she she locks her door from inside. And we see that she's she's suffering from cancer. She has lung cancer her mom died of the same you know ailment lung cancer, and she's been with her dad six years and there's there's you know, she's she's thinking about that and there are hints that she's about to do something and then she calls up her dad and dad loves to sing right and under that is a guy I'm coming to the hospital tomorrow to pick you up and the thing is he's like No, no, no, don't come and the bad things is you know, Lata Mangeshkar song which is love Juggler and the last verse of the song is shayad Paris gentlemen mula Koto now, and that's when it's, it strikes the reader that actually mula Carpo now because she disconnects the phone and she knows she's doing it and she takes delight so so this was this is the first thing which which kind of sets sets that sets up you know, for Simone to crack the case. But But yeah, this was a scene which which actually, you know, struck a chord for different reasons for me

Michelle D'costa  51:54

yeah, and I think with such intense faders I'm sure every scene is challenging in its own way. But yeah, I think the ones that you're underrated as see just it gave me goosebumps you know, just listening to it imagine like reading the book all over again. Okay. So this brings us to the last round of the interview which is our rapid fire round, there is no thinking aloud. Or you have to just answer in one word or one sentence. Okay.

Tara Khandelwal  52:48

What? What is one of your favorite psychological thrillers featuring a woman's

Devashish  52:58

for me it will it be be the product thing.

Nidhi  53:06

That would be she the character from Netflix series. The turnaround of that character is something I adored.

Michelle D'costa  53:20

Nice, okay. O ne place that you want your female lead to explore and why

Devashish  53:48

for me Lost in Space.

Nidhi  53:58

 For me. It would be India. Oh, yes.

Tara Khandelwal  54:03

Okay, so if you could meet your female lead in real life and tell her one thing, what would it be?

Devashish  54:13

I tell someone, I love your haircut. She's bald by the way. So

Nidhi  54:22

for me it would be I would like to be a mother like you for Monica.

Michelle D'costa  54:28

Nice. Okay. One of my favorite psychological thriller that you would take with you on an island and take nothing else along

Nidhi  54:41

I would write one there.

Michelle D'costa  54:44

Nice. Good one. Okay, their wishes.

Devashish  54:49

Ah, um, it's okay. I probably won't take a psychological thriller but I would take all books

Tara Khandelwal  55:01

You're only allowed one book Oh,

Devashish  55:04

only allowed Am I allowed an author so I wanted to say all books are fee schedule

Tara Khandelwal  55:14

okay your favorite psychological thriller of all time

Nidhi  55:20

gotta Christie And Then There Were None

Devashish  55:26

psychological thriller I would the family upstairs oh no the silent patient no the family upstairs more than silent patient

Tara Khandelwal  55:45

Okay so the last one your next book

Devashish  55:55

so it's it's a combination of this Simone thing series with the see her soul and other you know crime or crimes this time and exploring themes of domestic violence and abuse combining it with sisterhood and then the the strength and sisterhood.

Nidhi  56:27

So you're asking a mystery writer to give away the secrets. Mine is again, a thriller, again, female centric roles and exploring the theme of black magic and child loss and how educated person falls into the trap of black magic or things are like, so it's more on the darker side.

Michelle D'costa  56:53

Wow, I think both of them are just you know, again, very intense. Very interesting. I wish you all the best with it. And definitely Tara and I are gonna look out for it when it comes out. Thank you so much for this conversation. I think it was you know, we could go on and on when we talk about psychological thriller. There's so much to unpack right? There's so many varieties of characters, so many so many interesting storylines. You know, I do hope that your keep up this passion for thrillers and your give India watch more trailers in the years to come. Thank you. Nidhi. Thank you.