6.16 Anand Neelakantan: Should You Be Evil To Succeed In Modern Times?

It might be time to ditch the traditional path to success and follow the path of “evil”! 

In this episode, Michelle and Tara speak with Anand Neelakanthan, author of the ‘The Asura Way’, a book that redefines the asura lifestyle and explores why “negative” traits like anger, pride, competition, commonly associated with the asuras, can actually benefit us!

In this exciting partnership series with Jaico Publishing House, we are featuring fascinating new authors every month, writers that captivate the audience and bring forth a revolutionary perspective to Indian literature.

Anand talks about why he ‘became an asura’, why he thinks the stories our parents tell us were invented to keep us in check, and why we need to wholeheartedly embrace the “evil” within us!

Tune in! 

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

Hi, everyone, welcome back. So Tara, I, you know, constantly seek out lifestyle guides, you know from sushi card, which is the golden art of contentment to atomic habits to ikigai, you know, very interested in seeing how others approach life, and what's their mantra to a successful life. Right.

Tara Khandelwal  00:35

Yeah, I love books like that. And today's book, and today's guest is very, very interesting. He is Ana Neela content. he is a prolific fiction writer with 16 novels with credit. And today we are interviewing him about his first ever nonfiction book survey. And it's a very interesting book, because he talks about the traits that are commonly used with us eras. And we he talks about how we can use them to get ahead in life, which is a very counterintuitive philosophy, from what we've always been taught as children. So for example, how can we use traits like angle prize competition, which are almost always viewed in a negative light? And how can we spin that and use it to benefit us, which I think is very practical and very useful for the times we live in? One thing that I really resonated with, was the example of pride. Because, you know, most of us are taught to shy away from acknowledging the things that we've done or achieved, especially as women, I think it's very, I think, Michelle and I always struggle to talk about our achievements, not only in a, like, in a proud way, but in a matter of fact. And I think this book really helped me because I'm trying to get better. And he says, there's no success without pride. So I'm definitely taking that one. Back with me.

Michelle D'costa  02:15

Yeah, and you know, what I like Tara is that he not only mentions these traits, but I think he uses stories to back them up, right? What I found interesting is that while you use his lessons from the Vedas, the Quran does, he also brings in insights from other religions like Christianity, you know, there's a section where he says that even Jesus gets angry, right? So I really like that, for example, your he uses the emotion of anger, you know, he makes the case that you know, anger is natural. It's just it's a matter of how you channel it, how you control it. And that actually surprised me.

Tara Khandelwal  02:44

So should we be evil to be successful in modern types? Let's find out. Welcome.

Michelle D'costa  02:51

Welcome, sir.

Anand Neelakanthan  02:54

Thank you. Thank you very much. I was listening to the introduction with the concluding question actually intrigued me, should we be evil to be successful? I think, I don't know why we associate us with our way to be something of evil. So let us start with what is evil and what is good. You know, actually, our very first question is, does you know that our ideas of what is good, what is evil, you know, we know now as adults, and it's a very gray area, as you said, it's very subjective. But when you grow up, you know, as children, you know, from the books we read, from the, you know, the stories that we hear from our parents from our grandparents, you know, it sort of shapes our worldview. Correct. So I wanted to know, for you, for example, you dedicated your book to your parents, right? Could you tell us a bit about them? What kinds of stories Did you hear growing up, for example, as a child, how did that shape your view of the as soon as

Anand Neelakanthan  05:00

the story is very different from what the parents usually tell, because parent storytelling is a method of what a society or a culture has invented, to keep people in check. There is there is a lot of advantages of it and disadvantage of it also, it gives a cohesive nature to the culture, because every culture is different by the stories that passes on from parents to children or grandparents to grandchildren, or what the teachers say that is how the values are given. That is how the culture imposes itself in good and bad way. So many stories they tell to, if you say a lot of what we perceive as morality is nothing but a bunch of stories, it is imposed on us, there are a lot of advantages for that. But the negative way it is used to suppress women, it is used to suppress certain sections of society, it is used to keep people away as others, believers and non believers, or that kind of division because only by pointing out that kind of division, this not this religion, but even ideology, uses haves and have nots, you know, to take it from the have haves so that all those who doesn't have anything should unite and fight against it. Religion also does that we believe in particular one particular God and who doesn't believe in that God is an unbeliever, they are damned to go into hell or they should be killed or they will, they will be born at something else. The next life a lot of theories and philosophies every kind of society imposes. The way in which a society has oppressed women also is using these kinds of stories. Only traitor is abound with lots of stories about Saudi Savitri how the female should be always subdued to the male. So, our society when we are eating, our children, have all these kind of restriction and the morality imposed on it on the base which was meant for something else. So, I will put it like take the case of what we talk now as Indian morality is nothing but Victorian era morality, right. India was always a culture which celebrated if you find that all the temples are ornate, there is a goddess for wealth. Lakshmi is there there is a goddess for well the goddess goddess for knowledge God for knowledge like the number the goddess like so the, my all the of the for purpose of life artha or well, and meaning both meaning it as well was said as one of the important aspects of life. But when it got When the British ruled and the Victorian era morality was imposed on us a lot of values from that we imbibed into it and that is what now we are teaching to our children, we teach them that well, you should not aspire for well, you should go for simple living if you take any Indian kings except that sticks except them in the sense who live everything everyone including the gods never lived a simple living. So, we teach our children mainly what Even they never practiced it the Victorian era they were very, very cold, very luxuriously, the British has lived. But the values which came to us is about, always be humble. We never because they wanted us to be humble, no, they were ruling us. If we are assert to you, how will the rulers be humbled to people, we always aim for very less, because they are dilute of the country. So if you everyone aims for more, there will be riots and rebellions, a lot of 1827 will happen. So a lot of these things came and we have been teaching that to our children, which has made us not reach our potential at all in our life. What are what is advice, which is usually given? One way they say that you should never be jealous, be happy with what you have. And then the same parents will tell look at how much mark your classmate is giving? Why can't you do like that. So it gives a confusing message to the child, all of us are fazed. What do you want? Actually, one way you say it should be Don't look at him, don't look at who has a better doll or better car or better this thing? And at the same time, they are telling No No Look at him or what all that kid is doing while you're reading from right from that age, you are teaching these people. Whereas the ideal approach, the surah approach would have been it doesn't matter what they have, you had to achieve your potential and you had to be the best.

Tara Khandelwal  16:37

Yes, I already know I said, I agree with you. So because I was just speaking to someone and we were like, you know, a lot of the values that we are living in are not the values that are congruent with what we really want. They are values that other people have imposed on us. And we are taking them as our own values. But I think as we sort of, you know, adult in all that, like we have to unlearn a lot of those values that have been taught to us and figure out what's what's really good for us what really makes sense. And I think the things in your book, you know, really help somebody do that. So actually, really, because I was very interested in your own journey, and how, you know, you spoke about your parents. And that was very, very fascinating, because I don't think I've heard that before. But I also read that you're from a corporate background, and that also helped you come to this, you know, philosophy or that helped you come to this thinking that you know, how we can sort of use it and use things that we are not taught which are bad, which are traditionally bad to actually further and get success. So, you know, you spoke about in the book, how you were in a very boring corporate job and you had this nasty boss and he was constantly pushing your buttons. And it got to a point where your wife thought you're going crazy. And then you took refuge in reading and then you found your calling. So how did this switch from the corporate to writing happen? And how did you decide that? Okay, I'll take that first leap.

Anand Neelakanthan  18:11

See, corporate job and slavery. But a lot of us are caught in that slavery not many can escape it's very difficult to escape because society has been designed for that corporate job is a very modern phenomena hardly dead wanted 150 years old, otherwise, always people who are independent, whether they are an artisan, whether a priest, at least in India, priests who are not employed by they were independent. So whether you are an artist and a musician, a priest required you are never employed. You always were self employed or as a business or a craftsman used to do that. This was true across the world, as a farmer, you are not employed to anyone you were calling from. The corporate was invented so that a person can channelize other people's work and time and earn money and leisure. So what is essentially being done somebody is giving you money to do a job that you don't like, if you like the job, we'll do it for free, right? They pay you because none of us like the job we are doing. So all these attorneys are be passionate about your job. If you're passionate about the job, you won't be working for anyone else. You are working for someone else because you know that this job sucks. And that is what they are paying. They also know that there are still things are all lies, you get paid precisely because the job is boring, horrible. And everything what they do for motivation is just that. These are all lies. These are all the PR talks, which is an age old trick. It's an age old trick used by all religions. It's an age old trick used by politicians is an age old trick used by corporate what is that? It is two things they will say they also give this con A dreamer says, they will say you should be ambitious, you should aim more you should achieve more. And when you ask for a rise, they will say that you shouldn't be contented with what you have. Until then you should be ambitious and everything, this is what our parents also tell right. This is the same thing the Legion also does that is they work on this principle of temptation and fear they will give you temptations that you will do all throughout your life, we find that people have been offering us candies, which we never get. They will say you study well. And you get good marks your life is 10 plus 10 standard or after 10 standard everything will be alright this is your crucial exam. And after 10 standard, you find that then you will have to do the plus to this pre college course. Then you have to do the entrance exam, whatever it is, then after that degree, they said that once you finish the degree then you are free to do anything in life. So total bullshitting they're not free at all. After that you get a job they say that once you get a job, you're set for life, you get married, you're set for life, you will have kids you are set for life, you have a house, you are set for life, your car, you're set for life, ultimately, you understand that you're never set for life. Yeah, always say we always the way the society and other thing control is by giving this temptation that if you do something, you are going to end the reward but it never gives the reward you want to always holds it back. It is like the donkey with a carrot in front No, the mule with the carrot in the front, the mule keeps walking, getting the load, and it is never going to get the carrot in the front that age old trick. So when I was in corporate I got this realization that and just doing is slavery for others. And he's not giving anything. And all these certificates are small, small tidbits and medals are like toys given by our candy is given to the kids to make them do. You are not we are all our kids we are grown up, we can see through what they are doing. And from them the journey started. So I am for myself and the world everybody is for themselves. Because we can help each other and all those things have to be done because of this ability that is required. But in every action there is a kind of self centeredness in whatever humans do. There is a kind of selfishness in whatever people do even in the love we the mother shows for the child, the hard fact is that there is a kind of selfishness in even in that selflessness. That is how the life is wired.

Michelle D'costa  24:36

Yeah, no, exactly. It's I actually since you mentioned pennants, you know, especially, especially that you said, given that it's sort of I think this realization that you got for example, with copper made me sort of think of what is this realization that I had so for me in I think my journey with religion or the relationship that I've had with Christianity, for example, we have something called the confession so Catholics go Go for confession to the priests. And it's you know, so for a long time I kept wondering, you know, you do the confession, the priest gives you a penance, you know, like whatever do certain say certain prayers and then your your sins are forgiven. And then again the you know, people will go back it's sort of a, it's a, it's a system meant to cleanse or sort of forgive your sins while you do understand this I also feel like it's a little problematic and also very, very selfish in a way where you feel like you know, you It's you mentally feel like okay, you're forgiven and then automatically as a human, you tend to repeat, tend to repeat the you're clearing

Anand Neelakanthan  25:33

the slate so that you can make moral it's much more easier in Hinduism, we had to go and just take bath in some rules. So, you go to go and take a bath in Ganga audience in saltwater, polluted. So, many Indians in vain be washed away in Ganga or other rivers Kaveri or Buddha or you want to just go and take so that you can start doing more since you do a pilgrimage. 

Michelle D'costa  28:40

that is absolutely sir. I think I think it's very, very interesting to hear. I mean, you're not only your book, write your book. On one hand, yes. Made. As you know, Tara and I were discussing a lot where it made us not only think about different religions, different ideologies, you know, different mythology in Greek mythology, because you've also, you know, history you've mentioned, Alexander the Great, you know, quite a few times and all of that. But I think what what I really liked, you know, apart from apart from the books, or is that I've seen that you're drawn to characters who are usually seen as antagonists in history or in mythology, I really liked that. So for example, you've written a book retold from Robin's point of view, you've written about Juryo Then and Now you talk about a surahs. So, I really liked that all the stories, your your approach towards them is sort of looking at these characters who are sort of portrayed as evil. So I want to know, so how did you come up?

Anand Neelakanthan  29:32

No, I got that No, like Rob and I thought he had a good deal. And I wrote about that and just hooking it in a logical perspective, you know, what agencies and all imagine I am I have been asked to become a Ravana or any other Domina as per let us assume the entire story is 100% true, and there is nothing symbolic, or everything is history. And it actually happened like that. Let us assume for a moment, Ramona. Do it for 10,000 years. Forget the logic of it where I would love to. And most part of his life he was the emperor. he has a private jet Pushpak Uber and he had a private jet. He had his own island, the model life right? Many billionaires aspire to do that. He had an island of his own. He had a private jet. He had beautiful women in his harem. He had all powerful weapons and great barrier serving for him. And 10,000 years he lived and finally he did a lot of mistakes. Who doesn't do mistake Laura mistake he did. Okay, people call him evil, but he's also an immortal we always remember about also. So this character fascinated me it is fantastic. Honestly, if you ask 100 people, honestly if you're given a life, answer honestly how many would choose the life of sacrifice, which rounded, the life of suffering which Rambo, we will respect you maybe you will venerate him, we will call him God, we will put his idol we'll pray to Him. But as a life as a human being, what would you choose? That will be of course a small minority who may actually choose those are the people who become like Gandhi, like Christ or RAM or somebody like that. But 99% of us are none of this we are neither Christ or Gandhi or Ramakrishna, most of us are like Robin. That is why in our heart of hearts resonates, because we know that yeah, he was an evil person, but given a choice, he would identify as more evil. And with so much absolute power with very little power, just look at your housing, so that we are living in any housing society. The anyone you would have seen across India, in any housings is at somebody who some retail banker who is holding the position of Secretary or president or somebody who will be showing so much arrogance and power in that small housing ad. And how can you expect somebody like Robin who are confident the 14th word not to our agenda. So it is quite natural that it comes you are somebody who is a school principal is showing so much arrogance, someone who is a fantastic member is showing so much arrogance and you expect the person who are for whom for 10,000 years not to have or against. But natural to arrogance is a natural phenomenon. When you achieve something somebody was as accomplished as Robin who achieved so many things are against these like sweat, it happens to be so natural, like sweat or tears or blood. In the DNA,

Tara Khandelwal  33:36

I think it's a very practical way of looking at how human beings function. And also I think as human beings we are very fascinated by evil characters, because oftentimes the good characters are very one dimensional. But the evil characters have multi dimensions, you know, they're not only evil, they have endearing qualities. Sometimes you root for them.

Anand Neelakanthan  33:57

evil characters are like us. Yeah, they like us. Yeah, the so called good characters are ideal, if you want to follow. Exactly

Tara Khandelwal  34:05

so but I know what was very interesting that I have so many questions about the book is well, but I have questions about you as a writer, because you are so prolific. You have published 16 novels, which is no mean feat you write for web CDs you I really liked the part of the book where you listed down all your achievements. And this is your first nonfiction book for which you know, you have said that you have traveled all over India, you have gone to also Nepal, you've interacted with local priests, scholars, storytellers. And you learned about these oral traditions that shaped the Puranas or the ancient Hindu texts. So can you tell us you know, what was it like for you to write nonfiction after being a fiction writer for all of these years?

Anand Neelakanthan  34:52

No fiction is a very powerful medium all the all the religions in the world stand on fiction The more beautiful story more impactful story you tell the more followers you will get. This is advertisement is also fiction, right? advertisement is also advertisement is like a capsule of religion. Advertisement works exactly the way the Legion does. It gives you that if you get this particular you wear this particular shirt or a skirt, suddenly you become beautiful you will become gorgeous you will become and some will become this. People are from the other sex will fall for you. You just walk on, none of this happens just like whatever the religions say no, none of it is going to happen. We also know that and all these people are bullshitting. But we all go around with that everyone else I don't think including the priests. Nobody really believes that there is something called heaven and there are a lot of people waiting for you to live the AI in the heart of heart, how many people really believe that this is the this they hold themselves to believe that the importance in India, the difference in India is that at least in rural areas and in very traditional places. This is openly acknowledged. The materialistic nature of our culture is openly acknowledged. It doesn't have the veneer of neuro we are not like that and that hypocrisy is not so you go to temples. You find that it is so practical. The materialism is on your face. It is celebrated on your face. Don't go by what all these people talk don't go by what all these people talk about. Go by what they all do. Everything is commercial. All the religious lasers in and around these are currently commercially. The Astra Astra is materialistic, the materialism is at the height,This country always have celebrated materialism. They say there are poojas and other things for gaining more material wealth. Some of the taglines for temples are so practical, that like beautiful the they say if you use money, he will return it 10 times the God will return it 10 times like that each temple has some speciality you will do this you will get a what is that they are not offering that you will get at your salvation they are not offering that you will get and like when they're not offering that you will get Moksha you will go to why Kunta there are a few places which are like that, but more people go to the temples which over for material success and material things some of you kids, babies will be born some of your daughter to be born some of your son to be born. So, what is spirituality and all these things and are criticizing them and appreciating it? So my travels and talking to all these people and observing them what they do, what I understood was the world is materialistic. There is nothing spiritual about the world. Spiritualism is an excuse me you because sometimes because the what the Legions have been preaching and not practicing, that creates an element of guiltiness. So we think that yeah, it is cool to be spiritual. I don't worry about materialistic thing and other things. Every living creature wants material. Every one is driven by desire. Every one is driven by ambition. Jealousy is natural. Anger is natural. The more people you observe, the more places you go. And we find that the human life is beautiful because of these emotions. Absolutely none of these emotions are nothing there is no culture left, no civilization left no progress. If everybody is contended, the life ends here and contended and totally contented Imagine, you are 20. And you're totally contented with life. You become a burden on resources. Because you don't want to work you were totally concerned about total contentment. Imagine, if you really knew by what the Regency The World Ends, religion also knows that all the Legions know that none of us are going to live because in practical solutions they are giving, none of them are going to live by that. And in these gaps is where they can make money and achieve power.

Tara Khandelwal  40:59

Yeah, I really like this body of, you know, the even Alexander the Great. And you said that all of these people, and anything in life generally if you want to achieve, you know, how can you be content about it, you will never write your next book. I think Michelle has a book coming out this year with Westlife and we were talking about it and she said, I'm not contented because I don't want one book. I want many books. And you know, so that ambition is always there. If you're contented, then you will, we won't be here where we are sitting in our modern houses. You know that because we were here because someone had that ambition in our society has evolved like that. Yeah,

Tara Khandelwal  42:03

what I liked about the book also is the different kinds of stories that you to illustrate the, you know, what we're talking about here. And one of the stories was about the Cobra and the cobra, everybody used to worship him because he was so big, and he can poison and all of that, and one day this mendicant came, and he said that you need to be you need to be very humble, what are you doing, and you're nothing and then the Cobra told the villagers that I'm just a sneak, I'm just nothing, I have nothing. You know, he's being very humble. And then what happened is a villager started kicking him and beating him and not feeding him. And then he realized that, you know, actually, he has to sort of show his power because that's the way he's getting paid. And that's the way surviving. And there are many stories like that in the book, you know, where to, you know, there's a story about ROM, where, you know, he, they're going to Lanka, and they weren't gonna want to rescue Sita, and they don't have the means to cross the ocean, and then they start throwing the stones into the river to make a bridge at the same thing. And, you know, Rob plays together now, who is God of the seas to make this loan float? And he Verona doesn't know can you change the rules of nature, so, he knows the press, and then he rom gets angry, you know, and he starts shooting the arrows into the sea, and the sea creatures are dying, that is when Warren appeals and God says which, so, what I liked about the book is that you got all of these different stories, you know, in a not only from Hinduism, but also you know, from other religions, that history as well. So what was you know, I

Anand Neelakanthan  43:42

went by this principle, no, don't go by what people say what they had done, whether they are characters or whether they are gods or whether they are historical characters. Never ever go by what they have said people will say 100 Things go by what they have done. So you find that every one of them including Buddha, was driven by ambition was driven by discontentment. Buddha was content that he would have been a contented King. No. Why did he go to sleep because of discontentment, right. Trying for enlightenment itself is a mark of discontentment. Yeah, because you want something more? You are not satisfied with anything the life offers here. Yeah.

Tara Khandelwal  44:25

What was your favorite story that you've written in the book? Because there's so many of them. Can you narrate one of them for our listeners?

Anand Neelakanthan  44:33

I don't actually. I keep talking about this. I don't remember like one favorite story that's come naturally when I say I don't plan and tell ya, I'm going to tell this, this thing so that way. Perhaps, perhaps the one which I told no that from anger started India's freedom moment. Yes. Yes. We talk we think Gandhi has said The Tom figure who is how many times he has been angry, and from that anger, he channelized it. The other one who believes Christ would be angry, because that is not the image what the priests view of the Christ right. But you go into the Bible, you find that there are a lot of occasions were easy. Why? Because that is the nature of people. He knew he's angry for the right thing, that's a break. Krishna becomes angry many times and becomes angry when they're angry. For word anger is required. Anger has to be used. Anger is a tool. So what I'm saying is all these things are totally when Humility is a tool. Acting humble may be advantageous for you many times, never be humble in your mind. But there are occasions where you can use the humility which you find a lot of the sense leaders, this, take the paper or the social media and see they act so humble. Talk to them five minutes, you'll understand that you can see through that they are the most egoistic people in the world. And that's what made them so, so big, right? They give you this aura that we are so simple and humble, they use it as a weapon as a tool.

Tara Khandelwal  46:16

That's the public. That's how the public responds. Because

Anand Neelakanthan  46:20

why because public has been trained to think that we are humbled, then you will achieve success know, the person achieved success because he or she had lost that men ego. And then this is used as a shield. So that the people are comfortable. And they don't face any threat. They're comfortable. Because society expects you to be humble, not because you're humble. You're being humble. So you find they uses humility as a marketing tool, which is a terrible

Tara Khandelwal  46:49

countless times. Yeah, because I watch a lot of these interviews and podcasts and every single you know, even if they're born into a super rich family, they will say that, Oh, I you know, I had a struggle or they're not being themselves at all, you know? Oh, I my, you know, like, you're born into your son of a billionaire and you're acting like you.

Michelle D'costa  47:11

You know, Tara, this reminds me I don't know if y'all have seen this. There was a viral clip of Beckham and his wife Victoria, where there is a there's an interview it was hilarious. Okay, there's an interview with Victoria shares and she says, Oh, I was born in poverty and something I'm not really it's not Advil battle, but you get what get the drift, right. She's trying to say that and he just you know, enters the room like a devil's advocate and he says no, say the truth say the truth Your dad dropped you in a BMW. It was hilarious because it was what she said, you know, and it had gone viral. So yeah, I totally get what you mean Tara it's just it's a PR, PR tactic you know to be to be humble and all of that. So, it's a good

Anand Neelakanthan  47:56

good PR Tactics. See, you can see these examples here there is something like choosing poverty. Gandhi was not from a poor family. He was in South Africa he was a successful initially struggled but he also successful indicate he was a son of a the one okay, but he was honest about it. So when he shows that I will wear only a loincloth it was a conscious decision about which he has written 1000s of pages why it uses so that had a value that time and then every Joker have a congressman of that time. Everyone who are born as prints and other things, they started using this other dress and simple dress and people started seeing through it. So Norman ends become the Gandhi. whatever name they call now they are not done these political dynasties are not real Gandhi's right, there's just a they use the name for that. So why Ganti all our great grandfather's are not not fools to follow that he because he had a kind of honesty with him he never did. He never said that I was gone too far. And I became like that he was from a rich family and he told even never who had some kind of honesty in him saying that he was for marriage. But later as the last Sunday phase as it progressed, everybody started coming with the sob story of I came from a very humble surroundings. And I'm so humble and simple. I eat one dosa in life and nothing else kind of thing. If you like it ETL you like Visa eat it why the hell should I care? What do you eat or what you don't eat? But people then in social media, people celebrate it. Oh, what a great man or a woman they are so simple. Despite having so much money they're roaming around in chapels. I liked Apollo Roman and in Japan, Ramaphosa and Branca on the third channel. Nobody bought his painting because he had happened or didn't happen. The painting was good people bought into his work is bad. It doesn't matter these Are all dyslexia techniques? So always one lesson from a survey is that always go by what people do rather than what people say? People bullshit a lot. I also bullshit. Because society expects you to bullshit. So say we need stories. So everyone creates their own stories.

Tara Khandelwal  50:18

I really like that line, but like you have to go by what people act and not Yeah. Because yeah, I really agree. Because we're really like in the age of social media where it is showing a whole bunch of crap. And then we have

Michelle D'costa  50:35

this or that yawn, Tara, you know, what we were talking the other day about virtue signaling, there is a thing nowadays online, where you know, when people it's sort of like you are for a cause, and you will just talk about it, and then and then there's the opposite is canceled culture anyway, what's the one thing I wanted to say, as a writer, the right one thing that that, you know, out of all the traits that you have listed in your book, one thing that I really liked was desire, right? This is something that I've thought thought about long and like, you know, Tara says, it's about not being content with what you have. So I'm always looking out for the next journal to submit to or the next publisher to submit to you know, so I want to know for the See, one thing that I really liked about your book is apart from anecdotes, stories, you know, different things that you've done, you have also given us ways in which to achieve that right. So, for example, desire, what you mentioned is you write down your goals and write them down in quantitative terms, I really like that. So So, so, for someone who's so prolific as he has written so many books, how do you narrow down your goals and and sort of what is your approach to

Anand Neelakanthan  51:31

I think I talked about that in the book itself, I had before I had shattered the lie, one line. And one thing this is again, this will look like I was born in poverty bla bla bla bla thing, but main thing is, we all studied in normal normal school and it is nothing special about 99% of Indian study in with English not as a first language for my children, English is the first language because they are in a metropolitan city, and for them, it's their first language, but I come from a village. So, nobody speaks English for a living or anything. So, I came to English a bit late. But for for human mind, anything I want to study German today, in five years, I can become prolific in that most of us can, if you put our mind to it, or any any language for that matter. If you have interest in that human mind is capable of doing it. So but before I had started putting, and this I believed in it, many people around me didn't believe because I keep bragging, I will do this do that. And half of the things which I bragged, I have a tear off, I'll be achieving soon. So, I had Brad saying that before putting the first line that this book will be a best seller and this will be known across the world before I wrote my first book tour he has a tale of two manpage but it was a stupid decision. At that time, at least, if you look on the angle, hardly any Indians right and who are reading the reading ology, then my general was totally different. I was writing a big book 500 page book which nobody will find it was 500 pages, I can't find it for every page book unknown author doubtful English I was improving my English. So I rewrote it many many times not full English, I was not writing him at that time. And I was writing about Ravana now, a lot of mythology books are that and not many were there nothing was. So, who will read it, but at that time also My desire was that I will break the world with this book, we will be talking about the book after 100 years I am going to do this and so, I had written this book 10 lakh copies this thing, that thing everything I wrote it down. And I also told that I will break into screenwriting, I was boring manager in a public sector in a small town. I don't know know anyone in industry, in film industry, whether it is a Malayalam Tamil or Hindi or Telugu, the four major or Canada the five major film industries, I know nobody. But I was telling I will write the book and all the directors of India will call me and I will all work with them. I write screenplays, this thing blah, blah, blah. And I had written down I had also said that I will be called to Hollywood I will take Indian stories to the world when I was an unknown, unknown trigger.

Michelle D'costa  54:33

So nowadays, we call that manifestation, sir I mean, I mean, of course it has been called platform before but I've heard that a lot now where you

Anand Neelakanthan  54:40

I don't know. I don't know what manifestation and all those things because I have not read that or heard about all those things. This this is not so that quality. So I had taken this round. This thing called sankalpa know they imagine this will happen and it will happen. This is a very materialistic Things which are told in the ancient texts were you were to envisage this imagine this and this will happen. I haven't thought that thought that in my childhood about these kinds of philosophies were you imagine, and things will happen and the

Tara Khandelwal  55:19

work like you put in

Anand Neelakanthan  55:22

no actually I'm not saying I chanted mantras because I don't

Tara Khandelwal  55:26

I feel a lot of Algerian and then you

Anand Neelakanthan  55:31

know there are mantras which I don't tend to in Sanskrit I understand the meaning and tell it to myself in whichever language you're comfortable with. These all talk about trust imagining that these things will happen and they will definitely happen. So I told the stories from where I arrived at that the book now after 20 years, I have 16 books eight shows in all the channels without any Godfather or without knowing anyone I work with all the WHO IS WHO of Indian film industry, from Telugu Rajamouli survivor with Rakesh on brush mother working drawings up and working with 11 Sally. I had Hollywood also I'm having a lot of license now. Something will come out soon. I wrote for all ot T's I wrote for Netflix I wrote for Amazon Prime I wrote for Chilean writing. I wrote for Sony live I wrote for sci fi I wrote for general channels like Star TV.

Michelle D'costa  56:31

So so sorry, I'm curious. So out of all these goals, which you set. And as you said, all these you have achieved right? And some you haven't, what happens when you expect something and it does not turn out because see, while when someone has such a strong vision, like anyone has a desire or a strong visual record, it is very natural or very human to be you know, disappointed or feel feeling rejected when you don't get that correct. And most often in writing, as you know, it is more rejections than acceptance. And so how do you how do you sort of cope cope with that?

Anand Neelakanthan  57:00

I have so many ambitions that something or other will keep happening. I don't believe in you aim for one thing and work all your life for that. That sets you for disappointment. I have hundreds of goals. So I go totally contrary into what so Asara doesn't desire one thing. No, he said, I want everything in the world. So I have so many things that 50% may not happen, but 50% is happening. No, I will add another 50 to it. That's never, never ending this Can I work on three four projects at a time. So right now I have I have two fiction books going on, which I'm writing one Shawn, I hear from a drummer and inszone live that is already on. It's going on for last name on the Tony live. That's in air, two films have finished and that the final draft other things are going on with the Commission projects. Another three films are different stages of development, which I'm doing. Two OTT shows are happening on which is there then I'm also writing for other stage shows, audio dramas are happening. So what happens when you're doing all these things to the person may not materialize, sometimes when the projects get abandoned in between, but that won't go to depression because I am always having so many projects in my pipeline I have another 12 books to write with various publishers, which I have signed up. So I write a lot of things, so that of it. So I am regularly getting some blockbusters in two or three years. So far in the two years, all the books might not have reached the same level. But now, after 16 books, I have at least five books which I have broken. Out of the eight shows which I have done so far, which I'll come on air for I've been blockbuster hits. So that's good enough for ya. So I won't feel depressed because one show didn't do well, one book didn't do as per expectation, because I'm already moving to the next book, and I'm already enthusiastic about it. And I'm sure that that's going to break the hole. Wow, it doesn't happen. But external read. What is it? Right, so

Michelle D'costa  1:01:00

it's really nice. I think it reminds me of the saying, Don't put all your eggs in one basket. It really fits here because like you said, if you just bank on one thing, and that one thing doesn't happen, that's when it crushes you. Right? But if you have all these things going on for you, that's great. Okay, so, so so we have we have two very fun rounds coming up. So this section is called the fun quiz. Okay, where we ask you the question, we give you three options, you pick one. Okay. One trait that you can't live without a pride, be anger, see desire? Is that? you have rested so many of your achievements in your book, which one? are you most proud of? The first one, over 300 articles in leading newspapers. Second, you founded two startups and you've closed one, three, you spent over 600 You've written over 600 hours of screenplay in India's leading TV channels. And what did you plan?

Anand Neelakanthan  1:02:05

I'm proud of my books.

Michelle D'costa  1:02:06

Okay, so. Okay, all right. What's that one false advice that you fell for and that you followed in your own life? A avoid being competitive, be avoid greed. See, avoid passion.

Anand Neelakanthan  1:02:22

Our greed? I'm not greedy enough.

Michelle D'costa  1:02:26

Hey, interesting. All right. Okay, so now and I'm

Anand Neelakanthan  1:02:29

not arrogant enough to work on my arrogance. And pride.

Michelle D'costa  1:02:39

Yeah, I think same here we are all in the same boat regarding yourself. That

Anand Neelakanthan  1:02:43

is one thing, which is very difficult because your upbringing has made it so that you don't speak your mind.

Michelle D'costa  1:02:50

Always. Yeah. It's auditioning. Yes. So

Anand Neelakanthan  1:02:54

conditioning, you try to be diplomatic, blah, blah, blah. And that becomes a more of more of an issue. You don't know what to say? No.

Michelle D'costa  1:03:05

Yeah. It's this guilt. So like I say, you know, sometimes in Christianity, almost everything is a sin. Everything makes you feel guilty. Okay. And also,

Tara Khandelwal  1:03:14

you know, it's so funny, because every week so we have a meeting. Because we, we run a company where we have lots of clients and everything. So we're doing a lot of calls with the clients. And every week, we have the same thing where we're training ourselves, you know, how do we sort of, you know, be more arrogant? That is?

Michelle D'costa  1:03:34

Yeah, you have to be

Tara Khandelwal  1:03:37

correct currently anyway, now, there are a lot of interesting insights and stories love the energy, love the passion. And it's very inspiring, you know, to be more of all the things you've done. So now we're the last section of the interview, which is our rapid fire round. So we ask you questions, and you can answer in one word or one sentence, no thinking aloud. So I'll start. One evil character and epics that you would have loved to meet in real life, Greek, Indian or any other.

Michelle D'costa  1:04:21

Okay, nice. One film that you think is apt for our modern times?

A

Anand Neelakanthan  1:04:36

One more movie. Known I passed the questionnaire on the sand I will say one film or movie all the films that are at the time that are coming. Do you mean the old old film something which will

Michelle D'costa  1:04:49

be anything that fits our modern or modern vibe or you know the the idea of hustle that you need to hustle to make it in today's world?

Anand Neelakanthan  1:05:01

Better Call Saul except the ending allow the capitalists all except the ending where they make him into very good nice person. No.

Tara Khandelwal  1:05:12

We had watch it. Okay, so one book you can read over and over again and learn something new each time,

Anand Neelakanthan  1:05:18

however

Michelle D'costa  1:05:25

Yeah, all right. Okay, um, one trait that you think is absolutely necessary for a writer to survive in the OTT world.

Anand Neelakanthan  1:05:36

Identity, self respect once again, see

Tara Khandelwal  1:05:44

what's next for you?

Anand Neelakanthan  1:05:47

I don't know, so many of them are there

Michelle D'costa  1:05:55

also, so yeah, this, this brings us to the end of the interview, sir. But I think it's one of the most interesting conversations or and I have had because it not only made us, you know, think but it's sort of, you know, sort of allowed us to, to think about so many different things and also remind us that we need to be more arrogant to

Tara Khandelwal  1:06:15

think it was very empowering. was very, you know, because it wasn't the qualities or sort of negative but actually, the experience of talking to you and reading a book is very empowering. I'm feeling more positive. And I think that's the whole point of the book and the conversation. So, thank you so much.

Anand Neelakanthan  1:06:37

Thank you. Thank you so much.