6.5 Anjum Hasan: On Being A Muslim In Modern India

How did one disastrous field trip turn a history teacher's life upside down?

In this episode, Michelle speaks with Anjum Hasan, author of 'History's Angel'- a riveting novel that explores life as a religious minority in modern India. When an easygoing history teacher is provoked by a student into losing his temper, he finds his life thrown into chaos as he battles with what it means to be a Muslim in present times. 

Anjum recalls stories from her childhood and growing up Muslim, and talks about why Delhi is the perfect setting for her story, with a rich past that is unraveled through her protagonist’s eyes.

Tune in for an unforgettable revisit into history!

Books and authors mentioned in this episode:

The Discovery of India - Jawaharlal Nehru
An Intimate Portrait of a Great Mughal - Parvati Sharma
Akbar of Hindustan - Parvati Sharma

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‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Anjum Hassan, Michelle D'costa

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to books in beyond. I'm Michelle and I'm thrilled to speak to the prolific writer Jim Hudson, who has authored seven books so far. I actually got introduced to her work, but I was in Bangalore. She is among the few talent in northeastern writers and we have in India today. I actually remember hunting for her books in blossoms bookstore, and then you know, connecting with her on Facebook. Her books so far have explored Bangalore, the northeast, you know, especially Shillong in a unique way. But her latest book history is Angel is my favorite. It's solely set in Delhi, which is the capital of India. And it unpacks hard questions like what it means to be a Muslim in India today. it unravels the rich history of Delhi, from the streets to the forts, we get to see Delhi and the Muslim identity through the main protagonist, Alice eyes, who is a history teacher in a school and he's so passionate about history that we daydreams about poets, political rulers, warrior kings, all the time. And one fateful day, he takes his students out for an excursion to hoomans tomb. And that's where the problem starts, and the novel unfolds into something more sinister. When a student Ankit accuses Allah for threatening him and calls him a dirty masala. readers get to experience what it's like to be a Muslim in India today, how the Muslim identity has shaped over the years in India, pre partition, post partition and all of that. And I know that history is Angel will definitely be etched in India's history. So welcome, Angie, I'm so happy to speak to you today.

Thank you so much, Michelle. And also for that wonderful introduction. It's really nice to be speaking to somebody who's read my work and who is able also to locate the latest novel, not just in what's going on today, but also in relation to my other novels. I'm especially thrilled that you said it's your favorite. ,

Yes, absolutely. And you know, what really drew me to the book on doom? You know, like, I would say, yes, the cover. It's one of my favorite covers of all time, it's very enticing. But as I read the book, I think for me, it was the family dynamics that, you know, kept me hooked throughout. It's a very big part of your novel, and it been curious about your own upbringing, you know, your own family, and you've actually dedicated your novel to your father noodle Hassan. Um, so I want to know, you know, what was it like growing up Muslim? So if you could share, like, you know, probably one instance of where, you know, you probably remember a storytelling session with your grandparents, I think that'd be really nice for our listeners, any any incident that you sort of remember from your childhood?

Well, I remember that my grandfather, both my grandparents were very pious Muslims, from my father's side, and we grew up with them. And it was two traditions, I think of Islam. One was coming out of the Quran, and the prayers and the festivals and the fasting and all the observances, which is the more book, the book bound aspect of the religion. But then there's also all these folk beliefs, I guess you could call them in Sufis, and in mistakes, and in certain observances, and even superstitions and ideas coming out of that. And I remember as a child, this idea that, which is a very important cornerstone of Islam, that the holy ones, the prophet, and, and God Himself, are not supposed to be picturised they are beyond, you know, representation. And as a child, I, I was so taken with the stories my grandfather would tell me, and I remember seeing a picture of this old man with a long beard in a book, and I go to my grandfather and say that God, I went to my grandfather and said, that is God and he was so angry. And he said, You can't point to anybody and say that God either you can't, it can can never be revealed in a picture, and I wasn't, I didn't understand why he got so upset. But that was so ingrained in me after that, that there is something beyond the pale, about, about the about divinity. So yeah, so there was this, this feeling of something forbidding about Islam, but at the same time through the stories of Sufis, and they would tell us a lot of stories, not about particular, famous movies, but just about people who may have been part of village life or in the Casbah where they grew up, who were known to be mistakes. And you know, they could do things they could make things happen, they could tell the future they could, they could tell what people were thinking. And we used to be very, very fascinated by the stories, some of which I still remember. So that kind of whole life world, I think, is there in the novel. And then I've layered it with our lives more grown up skepticism about many things to do with both Islam and with what's going on in India today.

Yeah, I actually noticed that, that you brought these two threads along very interestingly, and, and you know, what a coincidence, because I, you know, I'm a Catholic, and I was actually born and raised in the Gulf. So I had this very same doubt that you had, and I actually, you know, got a chance to converse with one of my Barney colleagues. And I asked him the same question. I said, you know, why is it that we don't see a picture of God and then he explained, you know, and there was a lot of, I would say, empathy in that he said, See, I mean, it it is something holy, you know, we don't want to sort of take that image and it was really, really nice to hear that because even I was very curious, you know, and, and I think you know, apart from religion, culture, what you have to otter live in the book is deadly, right? Because it goes into Delhi's history, you know, from the historical figures, to the shapes of streets and older the and you've actually mentioned in your acknowledgments that, you know, your lifelong chats with your mother was actually fodder for the book, you know. So I was really curious if you know, you could share, like a pivotal moment or some conversation that you had with your mother, that became a big part of

So yeah, it's interesting that for my mum, she is a child of partition, she grew up in a shower. I mean, she was born in the shower, she was a child, when partition happened, and she moved. She had just, she's just sort of, I think, had turned eight when partition happened, and then she moved with her family to Delhi. So for her, it's very much a city that is, you know, something that is not the city of her birth, but which she has very, very sentimental attachment to the deeper attachment always been to the place that you cannot go back to, which is, which is shower. So for her, it was Shudra, which is like across the Yamuna where a lot of refugee families were settled. And then of course, it was Darya Gunj, because she was working there. And it was all the cafes and restaurants of Delhi in the 60s and cannot place. So I don't know, I can't say exactly. If you know, I one doesn't do this. Always very consciously. You're just listening to these stories and talking to a parent, because you're curious, but it's never. So obviously to put it all in a novel. At least I wasn't thinking of that when I would ask her these things. I don't know how much of that I've internalized myself and there are moments when I think I may have experienced something myself. And I realized no, maybe I haven't. Maybe it's just something I've heard about Delpy from her or from maybe even from my father, or maybe I've read about it, but it feels so subliminally sort of mine that I sort of, I feel like I can claim it. So that's the way that I've built up this Deli. And of course, I have to do it as invisibly as possible. I guess that's the word because Alif belongs there. He can't be thinking of Delhi in this external way. He's not a visitor, he's a native but at the same time, there is a scene for instance, when he and his son are walking out in order bazaar in Old Delhi very near from where they live. And there's all this street life it's the month of Ramzan and people are breaking their fast and they're cooking dinner and there's all these shops and all this energy of Twilight in older linear near the Jama Masjid and I say that the Son Salim he notices nothing because it's also familiar and olive notices everything because it's so familiar. So there is also that I in our lives that never takes the city for granted or doesn't doesn't take anything for granted, I guess because he's he has the distance of a historian between himself and his reality. So that gave me a way also to describe daily through his eyes.

Yeah, and you know, I really couldn't tell him like you know, what was borrowed you know, from family members histories on daily what was modeled from other places because, as you said, the way you've written it, is as if it's from lived experience, you know, because you had no other Wait because I live is a native and it had to sound authentic, which it did. You know, I was just looking for for sort of, you know that, that that inspiration that writers get from speaking to, you know, parents because I myself, I could relate to it a lot. I usually hound my parents for stories about their childhood about their lives like so my father, for example. He grew up in Mangalore in rural Bangalore. And I could never imagine that kind of setting growing up, right, my childhood was very different. Similarly, my mother spent her childhood in Bombay, again, very different. So I think it's really interesting to go back and sort of, you know, get these stories from them while we can. And of course, if it turns out to be in a book, that's even better. Your book for me see it really stood out because honestly, there are very few books that I have come across, which are centered around the Muslim experience in Indian English writing, right? Most recently, Uriah Mukherjee is the girl who kept falling in love, you know, that covered the protest in Bilal bar, then audio we had also seen, and he said his book, which was pre roto riot, you know, when your book shows us the Muslim experience in all its beauty and its emptiness, you know, and like I mentioned earlier, a student Ankit goes missing during the excoriate of memorials to men on his return. He calls Alif. Really, really bad word. And then Alex is, you know, suspended from his job, because the authorities believe he harmed the child. Right? So I want to know, why did you choose to use olives role as a teacher to show what it's like for minorities in India today? Because I have read other of your books, I do know that you've covered this teacher student relationship before, but never in this way. So why did you choose this?

In the case of this novel, I think it was so tempting to create a history teacher, who happens to be Muslim happens to be in Delhi, happens to be in Old Delhi, which is a stronghold of Muslim, as well as Hindus, but more Muslims demographically. So just to see what would happen if I, if I put all those ingredients given that history has become so contentious. What would happen? Not, I think I didn't want to make it into too much of an intellectual exercise and have him teach, you know, much older students who could who would challenge him, maybe in different ways, but children, he teaches nine year olds, 10 year olds, 11 year olds. And they don't challenge him they are they are not on the whole drawn to the battles that are already being fought in their name with the syllabus being changed or being watered down. But at the same time, they're not completely untouched by it, either. They're picking up things that adults are saying and doing around them. And one of these children is a very difficult little fellow. And he challenges I live and usually I live is able to deal with this humorously and sort of affectionately, but somehow he feels undermined by this boy. So that to me is also interesting what happens when a when a child can really mess up an adult. And this is an adult who has a lot of experience with children. So the religious slur is part of it. It's also a kind of a psychological game. And then we go deeper, etc. I don't want to give too much away. But yes, then he decides to visit the family. And that's also not the expected family scene. So there are many, there are many things going on there about family backgrounds, and what goes into creating children who might, who might harbor sort of the prejudices more actively the prejudices of the adults around them rather than other children who might, who might just you know, be more childlike.

Yeah, and I really thought you bought out that contrast very well. On Japan, for me, especially, I mean, and you know, without giving away any spoilers, though, this scene is pretty much at the beginning of the book. And the moment this happens, you know, I was sort of like I couldn't breathe for the rest of the novel because there was so much tension you know, like it I will just kept one Wondering what is going to happen next, you know, what is he going to do next? Because, you know, it sort of took me back to my school days. And as school was was notorious for this, we were known for playing pranks on teachers, not me, specifically, but you know, the other notorious children. And like, for example, just to give you an idea, so there was a, there was an instance where I think the boys in the class had gifted one of our professors with Bev. And they said that, you know, this is because you use men like a cockroach, and it is, I mean, you know, as kids, we obviously laughed it out. But when you think about it, it's it's really sad, you know, I mean, what teachers have to go through. So the way you brought out this, this, I think, this sort of the situation that teachers are put in, you know, especially from smaller children, you know, and, and I think kids and teens have this tendency to be cruel that even adults don't have, and that's something that I keep returning to in different kinds of stories, you know, and to me, I think that really set the tone of the novel, you know, but what I really liked apart from this is that it's not just the students, you've actually carved out his working life in a way where you've shown that even his colleagues are sort of rooting for his downfall. Right. So a very strong figure in the novelist, Robert, you know, who sort of the head in the school and you know, she's hell bent on bringing culture and tradition in the school and she clearly has something against RDF. Right. And Shimon says, I think that, you know, you're bringing too much Muslim history into the classrooms. And then the school even goes on to organize a hub, and but then they discourage are left to express his own views. So I want to know, you know, what was your inspiration like for this character, specifically? And how do you think this lends to a larger conversation about our education system in India?

Yeah, I think setting it in an in a school is more broadly, like I said, interesting to me, because as you as you reminded me, it could also just be the ordinary challenges that teachers face from sort of recalcitrant children or rebellious or just nasty kids. And how does how does that? How does that affect one sense of oneself? In our lives case? I think it's particularly this child, he hasn't, he doesn't seem to have a burden from the past. In fact, he seems to enjoy school teaching and has wanted to remain in school teaching and has never wanted to do anything else. So he's very happy being a school teacher, but then this sort of is a turning point. And yes, I mean, I think there's a lot going on in our institutions, which we may not be aware of as writers if we lead independent lives. Or as people working in, in fields like media, where we're, you know, sometimes we we may be doing our own small things, or working independently, and may not be actually fully tuned in to what's going on in larger institutions. But I think I'm picking up the fact that more and more, there is this prejudice surfacing? And it's really a difficult challenge for the novelist because how do you describe something that's very crude in ways that are not wholly crude? Because otherwise, you're just going to create these stereotypes of the victim and the oppressor? And what are you really able to show through that it's, it's so familiar, it's over familiar. So you can't really do that without going into slapstick. So that is a real challenge. And I think I tried to do it, through showing different kinds of people in the school there is the principal who's new and over, eager to prove herself and she feels threatened, I think, by a life who's much more erudite and wants to do things his own way and doesn't want to submit to this new B person who has no hand in the history of the institution. So there's inevitably going to be a clash between them. But then there is also a friend he has, who's a teacher of math and science, was very sympathetic, and is a reader like him, and they've been friends for a long time. So I want you to show that there are also people like that, that it's not just you know, this sort of face off between people from two religions because that would be really, that is not true. I think, even while it is true that on the whole we become a more prejudiced society, or at least we become more comfortable about airing our prejudices, especially in spaces where it's, it feels safe, and it's encouraged, and you know, the majority can hound in some ways the minority. While that's largely true, I didn't want to, I didn't want to just leave it as the story of a boss at Olive who has no one and has to, you know, fight is on corner. That would be really, I think I would be bored writing that kind of book. So if he's somebody who can who can take care of himself, of course, he's he's very, very, he is very much on the backfoot. But he never loses his ability to think, for himself. But then he also has friends, like a bit like this character Mismaloya. And to me, those conversations were were equally important. Yeah,

and actually, that's what I liked, that there was a balance, right? It's not just as you said, you know, majority versus minority. And it sort of reminded me of my own work life. So it in my first job, you know, while you know, we sort of like, we're sitting at this lunch table, and you have people from all walks of life, you know, different religions, all of that. And I was often targeted, you know, for eating a lot of non veg, right, I mean, and we Catholics do have a lot of non veg. So there was this one particular, clinical used to always ask me, oh, which animal is it today? And I always wonder, Oh, my God, why am I targeted? But at the same time, I used to think okay, but no, there are other colleagues, you know, there are people, it's sort of like, it's not just one versus the other. And I think it's, that's what I really liked about your novel, you know, and you spoke about stereotypes as well, right? See, every community has its stereotypes, right? Like I'm a Mongolian Catholic, I've heard many stereotypes about my community. Plus, I was born and raised in the Gulf. And you know, the Middle East in general has a lot of stereotypes, right? In media, pop culture, which I tried to bust in my own writing. So your novel shows us, in fact, different ways in which Muslims experience religion and culture. It's not just one way, you know, like, while alif is always indifferent to religion, you know, there's his house help Ahmed, who is almost like an adopted brother to his family. He has extreme radical views. Right. So why is you know, sort of what made you create this contrast in the book, you know, and how do you think this busts the myths about Muslims in India today?

Yeah, absolutely. Michelle, I don't think anybody can really write a dent, definitive account of a community because there never is such a thing. Its individual experience. And most especially in a novel, you can, as you said, right at the beginning, you can bring in a lot of family life, you can bring in a lot of community life. You can show things from the inside. But does it amount to a sociological picture? I'm never sure I think it will. It also questions a lot of sociological pictures, because it shows that that individual experiences are always going to be looking at things from an angle and sort of subverting them, I guess, in some ways. So there are there are, of course figures who are much more fervent believers in the religion, like me. And the question is, is it even possible to talk to him? If he's so sure about everything? How does one have a conversation with somebody like that? That's the challenge of the novel. And that's the challenge, olive has the challenge. So he's tempted to dismiss the guy but then that's also not possible, because the guy is very, very insistent and becomes, becomes a threat in some ways. So there is that and then there is also the idea of Islam as just a refuge. For people who don't even necessarily want to think too much about it, like a lips, wife, they're not going to bother too much about defending the religion, they just want to get on with their lives and make a success of their careers. And the religion is there as a as identity as refuge when they need it. But they're impatient with being always seen as somehow different because they're Muslim. And this is also something that's very interesting to me, like, when did that become a difference? Because this country has always had people from all kinds of religions living here and when did the minority become the other? You know, it was obviously it's a historical process. It didn't happen overnight. And how do people who are uncomfortable with being the other how do how do they negotiate it? So I think I had a bit of a challenge there because I want to write about this family and and I am writing about other Muslim characters outside the family, but I didn't see myself as necessarily only writing a Muslim novel, though it seems to have become that. But it's also like is that a daily novel? It's also a novel about a character called Olive. Most of all, there are many leading, if not leading as, at least important characters who are not Muslim. So it's a double edged thing, because yes, I did want to show what this this group of people is thinking and feeling at this moment. But I didn't want to uphold it as okay, this is this is any kind of idealized or definitive picture of the community?

Yeah, yeah. No, and that definitely came across and I feel you know, it's sort of every readers experience, right? And like I said, so far, let's say for some readers, it could be this deadly novel right or old deadly novel. For some readers. It could be you know, novel about the Muslim experience, right? For me, I think it was a mix of everything. And especially I love the women folk, right and and since you brought up olives wife here, I want to mention that she was one of my favorite characters in the book. You know, she works at Tip Top supermarket, I love the name as well. And she's doing her MBA, you know, while working, as she wants a better job in a better location. I could relate to her so much and, and she's this, you know, a woman with a goal, right? She wants to move but Alif on the other hand, he's very comfortable with where he is, you know, with all the historical figures in his head to keep him company. You know, he's sort of complacent. Right? And she is this headstrong woman who doesn't cook as well, you know, she's irritated that, you know, during eat her colleagues look at her as the source of biryani and other dishes, right. And she's clearly a modern Muslim woman it is. That's how I saw her. So I wanted to know, you know, when you wrote her character, did you sort of set out to show what it's like to be a modern Muslim woman today? Or did he sort of just organically come up when you were creating other females just to sort of create this contrast between their personalities, because they are quite different?

Yeah, I'm not sure how she came about, because one is usually working with instinct more than with design. So these voices, and these figures sort of start to emerge as you go along. But to me, she's like a modern Indian woman who happens to be Muslim. I think in in many ways, she would be the same whether she was Muslim or Hindu or Christian, you know, she would have the same ideas of herself the same ambitions. But the fact that she's Muslim means that she has to deal with certain things. In the city, which is prejudice, which is stereotyping. And that gives us certain impatience. But I think her personality would have been similar, whatever faith she came from. Whereas I, in fact, curiously, and even though she's a believer, she she does, say her prayers, and she does, she does what is needed, I guess, to keep on the right side of the powers that be. But curiously, I think, even though Olive is not a, he is a believer in a much deeper sense, but he doesn't really go to the mosque, or he's not interested in these external observances. In some ways, he's hard to imagine, as belonging to another faith simply because he's so interested, and so invested in the history of Islam and in the history of Delhi as a place where the succession of Muslim rulers have left that stamp. And so, for me, it was he was a in some ways he's a character for whom Islam is very much inextricable from who he is. Given his interests and given his predilections, not necessarily his faith. So yeah, but the women, Tyra to me was just her own woman. She's just her own person, and she wants to have her own way. And there's a certain impatience, I think, with too much thinking, I feel that there is. That's a very obvious thing also, that you feel you see that also when people talk about fiction now that they already start to develop cold feet if there's talk of a novel of ideas or novels that have too much talk or too much thinking. So, apart from the reaction to fiction, you also see it in life that People want things that are, that are easy, that are easy to digest, and that life should not have to be about too much introspection. And so when they're having get together and an olive starts talking about partition and diaries, immediately impatient, she doesn't want to go back to the past in this way and dredge it up and have to, you know, defend it or, or speak against it, she just feels like, what happened happened, it had to happen, and let's move on. And so this, this contrast to me is it's very fascinating between sort of, I guess, between thinking and doing the what she's doing is not necessarily I mean, she's doing what she can within the constraints, a very narrow constraints of the consumer society, and the sort of low level working culture in which she finds herself.

Yeah, no, and I actually like that, you know, that contrast. In fact, I found her quite realistic, you know, because I at times the novel I was, I was tempted to to sort of nudge Alif and say, hey, you know, like, even live in the present live in the present. And for me, Tahira was that was an embodiment of that, you know, and it shows the impatient shows when, you know, Alec tends to go back into the passage, he says, Yeah, but let's move forward, you know, let's, let's sort of do something with our life and move forward. I really like that, especially. And, and I know that, as you said, you know, she could be treated as any modern Indian woman, but for me, especially because, you know, I have the Gulf context, because a lot of people have asked me, you know, what was it like, over there, you know, work women just at home, you know, don't they work? You know, do they just wear the hijab? You know, I then I have to keep telling people that I'm saying no, they're working, they're just like, you know, modern women like us. They are graduates they are talented they drive and so for me writing it, you know, why did brilliantly portrayed an Indian woman it also in a larger conversation, it showed that, yes, there are different identities to women. And it's not just one stereotype, which, you know, makes me curious, Andrew, because in your previous books, you've explored what it means to be a Northeast and what it means to have northeast routes, right, and move for work, you know, studies to other places like Bangalore, or so I want to know, how did this book take shape? Now, like, you know, did you always want to write about Delhi? Did you always want to write about the Muslim identity and its different phases?

Thanks, Michelle. Yes, I think that's a fair question, because I've seemed to be moving around like, rather crazily between different subjects, but they're all related to who I am, in a very broad sense. And I kind of feel that, as novelist, one also has to extend oneself. And you can start out from a small thing that is part of your experience or your family experience, but then you're also making sort of a larger leap, and creating a world that you may not necessarily have inhabited yourself. So like I said, because it's my parents city in that way. And because I wanted to write about what's going on today, I think that's what every novelist wants to do, in some sense, is to give voice to what's going on. And so my challenge was, how do I do it? Drawing a little bit on my own past, but then not limiting myself to that and going further. And I think I get bored very easily from doing the same thing. So I've written novels that in the Northeast are written novels set in Bangalore, about characters who have come out of the Northeast. And I've not exhausted these things, but I don't feel like I should limit myself only to that sort of geographical or thematic zone, I should be able to write about anything, really. So that's why that's why they Lee that's why it was a challenge. I mean, I haven't written about a whole novel about a place that I actually haven't lived in. And I think, I think there's something conservative about Indian fiction, at least Indian English fiction we tend to be we tend to stick with what we know if I can put it that way. There is definitely sort of timidity about the genre, despite the fact that some of the best works have come out, or come out from that autobiography. Physical impulse, the fact remains that we don't really stick our necks out. And to me that that is can be a limitation. So I wanted to do that with this book. And you were again, I don't know what, I don't know where that will take me that sort of restlessness, but I do feel that it's important to, to at least try to write about things that, you know, put yourself in other people's shoes. I think if you can't do that, then it's really I think you're you're not fully qualified as a novelist. If you can't do that, so for me, even if you fail, it's worth trying to get out of yourself.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think I think as a writer, myself, I get pretty bored, where I sort of approach the same theme, same voice, same topics again, and again. And I think, yeah, I think taking the leap of faith is, you know, it can go either way. Right. And I think in this case, it was definitely more rewarding, because it's, you know, going into history, it's it's sort of, it's also a learning learning process for the writer, I'm sure right. You know, while you were discovering more about d&d, the religion as a whole and you yourself, you've evolved, which is why I found it refreshing, honestly, when I picked the book, you know, I was curious as Oh, is this Banglore? You know, is this the northeast, there was the, there was a first thing that I thought of, and then when I saw it, about Delhi, that, in fact, what what sort of, you know, drew me to the book even further. And I think, I think a big part of you could say the soul of the book is is not just English, but there's also Urdu, you know, so for all our listeners, who's who's also, you know, sort of curious about how Indian English writing keeps reinventing itself, I really love the way you have infused or to intuit, you know, because it's very effortless. And I think in India, we have very few sort of few avenues to preserve the language, I think, the Javan Memorial Prize, which was instituted, you know, in 2019, for outstanding translations of equal to works, I feel there are very few like that. So I just, I want to know, you know, what has your relationship been been like with the language? Did you sort of read a lot of old two for this book? Or have you always been, you know, sort of connected with the language?

I actually know very little to do and I think I've used it all up in this novel. So I won't be able to write another novel with any or doing it at all. And when I say or do, I mean the little bits of poetry that olive is quoting or remembering, and he, he knows very little or do also. So I kind of passed on my own ignorance to him. And what he does know he actually has got from his cousin who knows a lot of poetry in the way that people who are steeped in tradition are able to just produce couplets or bits of poetry at the drop of a hat to suit every occasion. And so he's often calling up, me or his cousin to ask him or remembering something that near to them. And in that figure, I think I was definitely an in that side of me. As someone who knows the poetry, I think there was definitely channeling my father channeling my father, because he was someone who really knew a lot of Urdu poetry orally, you know, in his head. And he could just go Faruk, or valuable, or Miyazaki all the time. And I regret that I didn't learn more of that. And I don't know if one can unless one grows up with the tradition and is reading a lot in it. So I know, the little that I know is from my father. And if I'm going to learn more of it, it will be perhaps through reading, I do read the script to I don't know the vocabulary very well. But I don't think I'll ever have that sort of living, oral relationship to it. Because that comes I think, from a lifetime of being being living in the language, which which I don't do.

Michelle D'costa  46:52

The It was very nice, actually coming across these bits of poetry, you know, especially, there's a sport called Nida. Firstly, and I had first heard of this poet in my son, you know, when Vicky Kaushal is, you know, famous first film, and sort of just just reliving the, you know, the beauty of that poetry, I think you've done it very well. And I'd make it very few opportunities in the city, you know, especially in Bombay, for example, you know, bounded organized and open mic, I think a few years back. And we saw a few poets, you know, reciting dazzles, and an ode to poetry, and it felt really nice, like really refreshing from the, you know, the usual, I would say that the kind of the way that language has evolved over the years, and I think these are the ways in which you can preserve that language. And I think your book is doing that, you know, however less of it has in it, but, you know, apart from the language, something that really stood out to me, were the careers that you chose for your characters, right? I mean, as a novelist, you are open to literally picking any career for your characters, right. But you have chosen, for example, teaching, to being a cop to paramedics to, you know, showing, selling, you know, shoe selling, you know, to being a store manager, and you know, they're across fields and ranks, can you tell us how to decide these specific roles for your characters, you know, for their personal desires to shine, but also to talk about the larger Indian economy, right, and how we as communities are perceived by the rules we actually employ.

Yeah, it was important to me to portray this class that is sort of, I guess, the real middle class, you know, they're not, they're not the bottom of the heap working class. But they are not at the right at the top of the heap either. So Alif comes out of that background as this is wiped IRA, they are genuinely the ones who have had parents who have really struggled or grandparents who struggled and now they are at a level where they're getting by, they're not they're not, by any means. Very well off, but they're managing. And so everyone around them, I mean, school teaching, is that right? A person who teaches in a school can by no measure be among the creamy layer, part of the creamy layer. And so that, to me, that class to me is is very fascinating, because it's, of course, like the working class is the most vulnerable, but then one step up is this class, which is, has somehow has more to lose. I think the working class is vulnerable. But there's, you can also see in them a certain fatalism or I don't know what to call it, maybe a resilience that comes out of having, having lived in that in that position for so long. But this middle class, which which is just about, made it and who wants their children to do much better than them and they're investing everything in their children and their children are really going to break out is what they hope. And you see that in our lives cousin Pharaoh who is investing everything he has in his, in his children and even entire lives, wife wants the kid to go abroad and do well. that the children are the future, the children are the hope. And so I had to think of professions that sort of match this, this class that will do anything, they sort of just, they just have to get by so it, it. I mean, it's a very, it's, we see these people all around us, but I think we don't really they don't really occupy a big part of our fiction, because fiction is written by upper class people in India. And again, I'm talking about, of course, I'm talking about the English language writers mostly here. , and I think I'm inspired maybe by by the Russians, because I think in checkoff stories, or even in in some of those diversities, works, you have this class that is that is struggling, you know, so. And yet they're feeling they're not without thoughts that they're not completely, just so taken with making a living, that they have no space for emotions. They're not completely degraded by, by, by having by the struggle to survive. So that is the class I'm really talking about in this novel. And, of course, there are people like Alex friend, Ganesh, who's who is working in the corporate sector and earning a lot of money. And so he's made that journey. He's made a kind of a class journey, I guess. But the fact is that they all come out of this, this sort of, in between bunch of people who, who, who are never going to quit and never going to, I think be amount to very much, you know, and to me, that's really interesting, what, what kind of, what kind of views do they have? And I onif is very conscious of having come from that background.

Yeah, and especially follow, you know, who is who is the shoe seller, you know, he has a shop and he sells shoes. And I think for me, he was one of my favorite male characters in the book, especially because of how dedicated he is to his family. Right. And he is like, you could call him like a traditional family man. He is, in fact looking for, you know, more opportunities. He is, in fact, you know, because now that the shoe shop is sort of afloat, you know, now he's dreaming of other opportunities, and he actually thinks of going to the Gulf. And it just reminded me of my parents, and you're like, when they migrated to the Gulf, you know, it's always the family who sort of at the center, right, it's not your own, it's not, you know, you're not being selfish, but it's just for the family. And I really like that I liked how you showed this contrast, you know, between each character and, as you said, I think it's this middle class, sort of this milieu, which which we don't see enough of in Indian fiction, I think recently it was in Irvingia, Allen's book, you know, teen couple, have fun outdoors, even there, we got to see like a, you know, very interesting sort of family dynamics with, you know, within the middle class. So they, for example, the moment a car comes home, it is like a big deal. You know, it's the whole society sort of looks at you as Oh, you've you've sort of stepped up higher because you've got a new car. See, I really I really think that this this comes across in the novel and there are so many scenes like this in the novel, which sort of stayed with me. For me one we know one of the most striking scenes and which was also kind of very painful to read was with the hara, passes her exams, right. And their son Salim says your mom killed it. And Arif wonders, okay, what did she kill? You know, this, this subtle humor, you're in there that you've infused and the saddest part is when she sort of passes or exams and she wants to celebrate her life is not so happy. You know, there's something there's a bad news that awaits him, you know, regarding his work life. So for me, I think this was one of the most striking scenes but I wanted to know for you and Jim, you know, which was the most painful scene to write I mean, but painful as an it could be, you know, the number of rewrites or it could literally be because you know it you found it difficult emotionally. I just wanted to know any one thing that has sort of stayed with you and was really challenging Do right?

Yeah, I will answer that about the painful scene. But I'm also curious about Irvingia. And so thank you for mentioning that I've heard other people say that novel is worth reading. So I have to pick it up. I have to make a mental note, because I'm going to the bookstores this weekend. And I must read that because I'm very curious about whether this this class has it has of course, it is there very much in writings from other languages. But in English, it's something that I think we, we could do more with. But I'm also curious about what you said, which is how the family is. So center stage in the Indian imagination, and all our choices are kind of driven by what the family needs. And I wonder if like two generations from now, even one generation from now your generation, whether that will, will that continue? Will the family still be the cornerstone? Like I don't know, I'm not sure. If Salim olives and Tyra's son who's like 15 years old, will you have the same impulses? And if not, like, what kind of fiction? Are we going to write about characters who may simply be just more selfish or individualistic, or however you put it? So that's, again, a question for me, what am I going to write about if I write about younger characters, but it's to come to your question about, about painful, I think, I mean, there is pain in the novel, there are moments of anxiety, there's a sense of betrayal. And things that our life has to deal with that are very, very difficult. But I think from a novelistic point of view, the hardest is always the beginning, because you're really anxious to find that tone, which will be the tone of the novel. And once you get that, it's going to be set and the whole novel is going to be written in that tone, and it's never obvious it's going to be you have to really struggle in it. And it's like, almost like, I think it's what I guess musicians work with, right? Like, how do you find the key to the novel? And once I've, I find that key, and it's really never anything to do with subject matter. As much as with style, or just, yeah, tone of voice, I think more more than anything. And that differs from book to book and differs from story to story. So the hardest for me always. And it was true of this book, as well as the first chapter. What is this thing going to sound like? And because it's a life whose I was very sure would be the chap holding the whole thing together. What is what does he sound like when he's when he's talking? That was the hardest thing to do. And I wrote that first chapter. So many times. I just kept rewriting it till I got it. Right. And then the rest of the book was much easier to write.

Actually, yeah, I even when I sort of, you know, when once like halfway through the book, I was just thinking about how difficult it must have been to get ellipsoids, right, because, you know, just for context for our listeners, Arlette has a lot of imaginary conversations with a lot of people like with a lot of historical figures. And it's, it's mostly in his head, right? It's mostly these thoughts is mostly his introspection. And he's sort of, you know, gone back in time, and he sort of loves to live in that space. And it reminded me of this movie, Woody Allen movie. I think it was called Midnight in Paris. I'm not sure if I'm getting the name, right. But it's, it's this character who loves to live in the past. And he dreams about this nostalgia shop. And his book is about the nostalgia shop, it reminded me of that character. And what was interesting here is, you know, he actually has conversations with these historical figures, you know, like Nehru, he asked he sort of narrow you know, why did you let the Muslims go? So I want to know, you know, how did this sort of particular conversation find its way to the novel, what kind of research should you do to unpack Muslim sentiments regarding the partition? Because we do see that especially, you know, to his friend Ganesh, who is who sort of you can see a product of that partition?

Yeah, again, the history that I live is absorbed by is not very esoteric or abstruse in any way it's sort of pretty standard textbook sort of stuff. Think anybody with a curiosity about Delhi's past, the sort of the Sultanate stroke, Maga history of dairy will have a fair say and sort of what he's talking about. But somehow for olive, it all becomes very personal. And I think partition is a very personal thing still for people in Northern India who are affected by it. And olive has family who has members in his family who sort of went across when Pakistan was created. And quite apart from that he just feels that it was a mistake. Simply put, and I think that's, that is, you know, one way in which partition is considered in the imagination of the subcontinent as a sort of a historical mistake or political mistake. Then there's the other side, which is not looking at the politics, but just looking at the individual experiences of people. The testimonies what actually happened, what did you go through, and there's a whole now genre of literature that is coming out of those. There always was great fiction, of course, there's so much Hindi Urdu fiction that was written on partition, that is a whole genre by itself. But more lately, there is this kind of oral histories sort of sub genre that has, that has become as important as looking at the politics of it. But with Alif, because he's a because he's a historian. And because he admires Nehru a lot. And he reads discovery of India obsessively. And I admire that book as well and wants to broadly agree with Nehru. He does, he thinks that that idea of India that he was creating there is the one that formed the basis of the modern country, and we all sort of are living in it, and now it's being threatened. But that was the India that, I think was the basis of the Constitution and the secular image of a country that has space for everyone, and which has been settled by people over the centuries. That's the only working idea for a place with a history like this. So I live in Milan, but then he's also aware that there were these, you know, things that could have been avoided. And I'm not sure what I think about that myself. If I were, like, if a gun were put to my head, where I would stand on that, because there are different views. But I like the idea of, of a character like Oliver, who wants to be a historian, but actually he's too. He's too emotional, I think to to ask us these questions in an academic way. And so it becomes like a personal conversation with these figures. And like you said, with Nehru, so how so it's really a way of making history personal and the liner uses that it's like history as nightmare. You know, it becomes so personal for him that he feels like he's actually able to see all the missteps and all the bickering and all the pettiness that led to that led to partition and so I guess, in some way, it means that he will never be properly scholarly historian because all this is just too close to him.

Okay, so now that we have covered, you know so much about the book about Alex about your own process, your inspiration, all of that. This brings us to the second last round of the interview, which is a fun quiz. So I'm going to give you three options as to when you have to pick one, okay. One historical figure that you would love to have dinner with a Nehru be Mahatma Gandhi see any visit

most definitely Nehru I think because I am at least a little bit like olive in that respect in in absolutely being a huge fan of discovery of India. So, and of some of his writings. I mean, his letters can be great fun to read as well. And he can be very, very mischievous and funny and personal in some of his letters. In fact, I was I'm writing our book about Shalom Michelle, like eons you yawns and evens and a whole country away from Delhi at the moment but Shillong is also part of the national history because it was the capital of Assam for 100 years. And there were all these people, politicians visiting it and I read a lovely red letter that never wrote to. I think it was Padma John and I do about how, what he feels about Shillong and, and why he's not talking to visit it and it's not such a big deal. And of course, that sort of mischievous I don't care so much for his stations kind of thing it would never come out in, in the speeches that he made in public, but it's there in the private archive. So narrow is to me fascinating. I mean, he's so many things. He's such a great stylist of the English language, he has so many ideas about the country's past and what the country should be. And of course, some of those ideas started to unravel even in his lifetime and so there's a tragedy and an A failure also attending to the man but yeah, I mean, one dinner is not enough so most most certainly narrow

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I didn't know that about the the, you know, the shalom or the you know, the hill station. But that's, that's really interesting. And it's really interesting to see what you know, political figures said in public and what is revealed in private anyway. Okay, so the next question is one tourist spot that you would love to visit with adults and experience it through his eyes, a India Gate? Be coterminal see Taj Mahal?

Ah, that's interesting. Maybe Taj Mahal, I think because it's seen so much. As a cliche now. Yeah. But maybe there would be things about it, that Alif would know that I don't. Exactly. And, yeah, because the history of Sharjah high again, was tragic. Towards the end, how he was imprisoned by whoring the job and you know, so there's a sadness also to that story. And we sort of idealized the Mughals Of course, and they idolized everything and look at the architecture. So but then there, there must be ways also seeing them as more human and I think, in fact, like we've been talking about so much about fiction but you brought in an honor Annie, Annie retcon, Canisius right so that just I was just thinking of Parvati Sharma has books on the Mughals which are just wonderful her book on John gear and then the one on Akbar so yeah, I mean I think historian with eye for things that are not like just the textbook stuff, but sort of at an angle to it. Would we agreed. So yeah, so so maybe maybe I lived with nice olive and the Taj Mahal Yeah. Okay. What Old

Delhi thing that you love a the accent be the street food, see the literature?

I think yeah, the accent the language, which is yes. So and so are the you know, and also just the abuse, I think it's very rich. If you just even if you, you, you they just walk around and hear the way we'll do spoken but there's still also just the last dregs I think of that old world civility there, which you see flashes off. In, you know, like, I say that in the novel, there are still people who practice calligraphy or they will incise a headstone or, yeah, certain certain ways of cooking that are still sort of the last remnants of the way the Mughals used to cook or eat. So for me already, the food is important, but yeah, the style. Yes. That's really fascinating. And again, who knows how long that will last? Yeah, definitely.

Michelle D'costa  1:20:24

Nice. Okay, this is the last one one Arabic word that you think is overused in India a Habibi, we mashallah see colors. 

Anjum Hassan  1:21:01

Well, I'm not sure if, in what sense they were used, because I think there's so much part of the language right. But I see, I think I see what you mean also, because sometimes we don't find new ways to say all things but we just keep repeating the cliches and I can see how much how much I can become one of those where instead of saying something really useful and original, you just eating Mashallah.

Michelle D'costa  1:21:34

And to me, I think it's Habibi because a lot of people started using.

Anjum Hassan  1:21:40

So yeah, okay, but how I mean, in what context? Oh, sweet love, right.

Michelle D'costa  1:21:44

Yeah. So literally, it's like, you know, like, I think even in a sarcastic tone, like, you know, instead of, like, Hey, you are you know, did you say, oh, let's do this. Oh, oh,

Anjum Hassan  1:21:56

I didn't know it. It's used as a term of address. Yeah. It's funny what

Michelle D'costa  1:22:00

I'm saying. Yeah, it has been overused, especially in India. It has it's a very different context. And I've noticed

Anjum Hassan  1:22:09

to you, okay, okay. I think the Arabic influence is growing all around. Yeah. Yeah. And not necessarily, in very funny ways. It's also a bit of a cliche. Yeah, it can get a little cliched and time one. Yeah, absolutely. So okay,

 okay, this brings us to the last round of zoom. So no thinking aloud. Your you have to answer in one word or one sentence. Okay. This is called our rapid fire round.
 Okay. One Muslim dish that you can have any day.

Shami kebabs

Oh, okay. Nice nonfiction book about Muslims that you would recommend to anyone in India

um, I would have to say Parvati Sharma has a book on Django, though it's not about Muslims, but it is about a mugger would that. Would that make the grid? Yeah,

sure. Why not? Okay, do you write?

I write on at my desk. There's no, there's no secrets about that. I mean, I'm sorry to not come up with a more romantic answer. But I live in two places, sometimes three, actually, I live between three places, Bangalore, Madikeri. And cool. So if you want a more geographical answer, then the answers in these three places. That's where right? Okay,

all right. What's next, which I think I mean, you pretty much told us a book on Shillong. But yeah, if you want to add anything to connect,

it's a nonfiction book. So that's going to be my first attempt at nonfiction. And it's the hardest book I've ever written. I think because I'm, again, I'm struggling to find the right voice. But it's going to be very much about other people. It's like oral history of Shillong. So there's maybe 20% Me and 80% other people so yeah, I'm having fun with the other people. I'm not so sure about myself.

But that really sounds interesting, Jim, and like you said, I think you keep reinventing yourself with every book, you know, especially you know, you've written poetry as well. So from seven books, one book is a poetry collection. You've written about different places your cover daddy, and now you're gonna cover a nonfiction book. So best of luck with that. I know that I'm going to be looking forward to it and I really enjoyed this conversation on Zoom. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much, Michelle. I enjoyed it too. And I Think you are a fabulous reader you read this novel with a very very very beady eye and a very very sympathetic spirit so thank you so much for that and thank you bound India

thank you