5.36 Vivek Shanbhag: Decoding Sakina’s Kiss, Ghachar Ghochar & Kannada Literature

How do you create a family drama embroiled in suspense?  

In this episode, Tara and Michelle uncover the nuances of writing a thriller with Vivek Shanbhag. We delve into how he navigates the minefield of family life as well as the intricate realm between truth and perception amidst India's evolving social and political landscape.  

Tune in to hear them unpack Vivek Shanbhag’s writing process, his books, Kannada literature, translations into English, the politics of translations, and how pop culture helped him learn a language.

Authors mentioned:

• Asghar Farhadi
• Damodar Mauzo
• Arunava Sinha
• Italo Calvino

Produced by Aishwarya Javalgekar

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

Tara Khandelwal  00:00

Hi everybody. Welcome back to Books and Beyond. So today we are thrilled to speak to the veteran Kanada writer Vivek shanbhag. He's one of both Michelle and my favorite authors. I first read Ghacchar Ghocchar when it came out, and I was so excited to read the most recent Sakina’s Kiss, both of the books have won our hearts. And he is one of the most popular writers writing in Canada today. And we, you know, in previous Books and Beyond episodes, we've covered different translations from concrete Bengali, Tamil, Marathi, Malayalam, but this is our first episode, covering a Canada book and that too, with Mr. Vivek shanbhag. So very excited. 

Michelle D'costa  00:46

Yes, and I've always wanted to interview him, because he's been very supportive of my writing. And Kannadss is actually my mother tongue, because I'm like, Dorian. Yeah.

Tara Khandelwal  00:57

I love the Ghacchar Ghocchar, because it's about this joint family whose dynamics suddenly change when they become really rich, and the protagonist gets married. And we learn how people change when they start to get more money and their attitudes change their behaviors change. I need only brought alive the nuances of class and privilege through that story, and I read it in one day.

Michelle D'costa  01:20

And so did I thought, but actually, you know, in his latest Sakina’s Kiss, we actually get to see a joint family again, but this time the daughter goes missing, right? And what happens to her Where is she gone, right? It's this mystery that sort of drives the entire narrative. So the book covers parenting, politics, cars, society, masculinity, and so much more than what Ghacchar Ghocchar did. And while I actually Tara, like the everyday life, the ordinary moments in the book, I really like the mystery element.

Tara Khandelwal  01:48

So let's get into it and unpack Kannada literature. Welcome, sir.

Vivek Shanbag  01:54

Thank you, Tara. Thank you, Michelle. And I have heard some of your other programs. And I really have enjoyed it. And it is my pleasure to talk to you today.

Tara Khandelwal  02:03

Oh, wow. That's, that's such amazing new that you heard our podcast is fabulous. So before we get into the heart of your books, and the trends in Kannada literature, we wanted to know, actually, you know, you've been writing for so many years. So what was that first instant? Where you knew you wanted to be a writer? Could you share an anecdote maybe from your childhood?

Vivek Shanbag  02:29

Yeah, I used to read a lot. And that's how I got into writing. My grandfather was a school teacher. So, he taught me to read and write Canada at a very young age, see, Canada is a phonetic language. So, if you know the script, you can read. So, even if you don't understand you can still read and he had taught me to read at a very young age. So, I started reading and of course, I took his help to understand. So, now, when I look back, if you know, the kind of reading I was doing, and the way I was seeking His help, it really looks like something that really generated my interest in language and reading. Because what was happening is I I used to read a story you know, tender mama mainly, and then will not understand a word or two, and then I wait for him to come and tell me the meaning of the word. So, when he explained the meaning of the word, suddenly the sentence would brighten up and till such time, I was always thinking the various possibilities of that word of the meaning of that word. So it was like a game and I was very small, very young, but then this is something that is etched in my mind, where I go back to him and where I wait for him to come home and then sit with him and understand those words and then suddenly the sentences taking different meaning. So I feel that my curiosity for the language and for the stories probably have roots at that young age. And then of course, later on, I used to read a lot because I grew up in a very small place in coastal Karnataka, very small town and by the sea. So there were not many things like, you know, today's children have. So it was either you play outside or you read looks because there was nothing else. I to do, so I grew up reading a lot. And then around, I think when I was 1415 is the time when I realized or when I thought that I should also become a writer. And my first story was published when I was 16. It won an award in a story competition. And that's how I started my writing. 

Michelle D'costa  05:23

Oh, it's so nice to hear that I actually saw and I was just thinking about how I've had the contrast of over childhood, you know, because I, when I grew up in the Gulf, I always wanted to spend more time with my grandparents, but they were back in India. And you know, and the only thing that I knew of back then was TV and cartoons all the time, right, it was very indoor childhood, which is quite the opposite from yourself. But, but what I find really fascinating, so is that, you know, for both your books that we have read in English, which is both gotcher butcher and second ask is, you know, at the heart of both of these books, there's mystery, right, they actually read like thrillers, because we can't wait to see what's happening next. Right? Why didn't gotcha, gotcha, there's a newly wedded bride, she keeps finding something off in the family that she's married into her husband seems to be pretty calm, but then we get to see the suit or, you know, tension story buildup between both of them. And in subpoenas case, what we see is that the daughter goes missing, and then these goondas, you know, come home, and then they say, but you know, where is your doctor? You know, and they demand to know. So it is very scary. So I want to know, if you really set out to write these mysteries in that tone? And are there any authors who have sort of inspired you, you know, especially towards this approach to storytelling, to make family drama, sort of, you know, embroiled in mystery and suspense.

Vivek Shanbag  06:37

Not really, I have not set out to write these as mysteries. But then there is always a story demands a certain kind of narrative. And it is, as a writer, you know, one tries to make it as sticky as possible. What I mean by sticky is you read the first sentence and you want to read this the next time you read a paragraph, and you want to read the next. While there are various ways of doing it, mysteries, only one of that mystery is if you see in literature, it has been used for centuries, there's nothing I'm not the first one. And there's, it's always used, but then it is to come back to your question No, I have not set out to do this as a mystery, but then it so happens that when you create a certain narrative, this is it is built into it, because I could not have written this in any other way. If data is missing, obviously, you know, you try to discover something. So any discovery has an element of mystery to that. So whether even even for example, even if there is there had nobody had gone missing, but even then there is there could have been, you know, the discovery or the quest for something can become very mysterious. So yeah, it is. It's not intentional, but it is something that I felt was essential for the storytelling. Right. And it's not that my all all works, I have mysteries in at the heart of it.

Michelle D'costa  08:20

It reminded a lot of Asgar for these dramas, because even he has very similar themes. He covers family drama, but there's always some mystery. There's some suspense. So I was curious

Vivek Shanbag  08:33

to see if there is a difference between I'm not talking about this particular play. But But But generally, were the mystery writing, for example, you know about about a murder or about bank robbery, or I've seen many of such things. The difference is that once you know, once you read the book to you can't read the book again. Because once you know what it is, then that is the end of it. But hopefully, the kind of miss the kind of mystery that is used in literary writing is not of that kind. Because you have you don't read it, to know who has done it. Right. So that that is completely that's not the objective of this. So I guess there is there is a difference in using mystery in the narratives. There are various ways of doing it. I'm not saying there is one way or there is a right way, but there are various ways of doing it.

Tara Khandelwal  09:34

Yes. I really like you know, the way that you explain that because this is literary fiction. And I love actually the mystery element was was great. But what I really love is a slice of life nature. So my favorite parts of both your books were when you're describing the everyday life, right? There's, you know, the story of Venket and his wife and how they VG and how they got together and then marriage. And then what happened when the daughter was born, it's a very ordinary middle class life. And you really make the ordinary, so extraordinary, I felt like I could just keep reading about what they're doing every day, you know, and never get bored, even if there was no mystery angle. One of the scenes, you know, which I really liked was when they went back to the village and they went to Suresh his house to find out about where their daughter was going, where their daughter had gone. And there's just a very normal scene of Kavita making those sores. And she, and she, she throws the first dose away, because first dose has to take and they're all sitting at the dining table and sort of so much tension there. But it's, it's so fascinating the everyday life. And even though it's in South India, you know, as a North Indian, I found, you know, the family dynamics, so relatable. And, like, we all go through this on a daily basis, right, we've seen it in our lives. So growing up, so, like, what stories Did you consume about family life and Canada and, and how have they inspired you

Vivek Shanbag  11:13

see, in growing up, mainly, I read a lot in Canada, till about the money 17 age, and then only after that, I started reading other basically the translations from into English and from other countries, but till then I read a lot in Canada, and also Canada, what I mean is not just written in Canada, but also translations into Canada, because there were there were there is a tradition and which is which was very, very active in those days not so much today, that we we got lots of literature from other languages translated into Canada. So, yeah, I mean, growing up in a small place, small village has its advantages, because what happens is in a in a city, you are you are very independent. And what I mean by independent is that it is one is independent, to almost like, you know, one is anonymous. But in a in a, in a village, it is not. So there are so many dependencies, there are so many, you can't just live alone there, you can't live without connecting yourself with the rest of the world around you. And naturally, it gives an opportunity for a child growing up in that environment to get to know so many other lives, so many other worlds. And as children, we always have access to the houses of the people, because that you know, though, there are various lines drawn, you know, in a village, whether it is class or caste and but children are usually have access to all these places. And so that's one thing. And then there are other community activities, which you don't find so much in cities at most, you may find something in your apartment, you know, people meeting for some Diwali or something. But it's all very, what should I say, very done with a lot of effort and not natural, while in a village, there are there are festivals there are there is a temple, there are activities around that. So so many things naturally happen and bring people together. So that kind of an exposure, I believe has made a significant impact on my mind while growing up, along with other literature's that I have read. In Canada, for example, the novels of Shri Ram Baron the novels of Columbo, and later on the lot of modernist writers in Canada, all of them have the, you know, having significant impact on my writing as well as my thinking.

Tara Khandelwal  14:10

Yeah, and also the, you know, the focus on you know, people's ordinary lives. So, you know, you sort of make the ordinary extraordinary. So, you know, how do you do that, and where did that sort of interest come from?

Vivek Shanbag  14:27

So, it is about how you will look at the characters because once you start, once you're obsessed with a character, you start looking at the character in a magnifying lens. And then suddenly you start seeing everything. You know, as Hemingway says, it's kind of, you know, iceberg thing. So you what you really see in my writing is not everything that I know about the character. It's about I say 10 20%. But as a writer, one must know 100% I may not write, what Venket is, how he is sleeping, or how he what he does when he gets poor, how he wears his shoes, or how he walks. And there's so many other things I may not have written, but I must know, because I must know that character so well, to write that 20%. And that proximity to the character allows you to see things in my new details. Because all of us are, even in these small things is where our personalities get expressed. It is not, you know, it is not the big big acts or big leaks, that's not that's not where we, our real selves get exposed. So I always look for these things. And once you start living with a character start, as I said, you know, looking at a character in through a magnifying glass, all these things start appearing. And then when you put characters together, it's like a, it's really a very challenging thing, like VG is someone completely different person. And you put vz and Ivanka together, it's like in in life. So we come across people, we, you know, there's so many relationships that completely strangers we meet, if there's any, I don't want to get into the details. But I'm saying that putting two characters together is a huge challenge for a writer to deal with. Because when they are together, what they speak, the register the their language, their expressions, everything is different. So it is an honor to start looking at it, I guess the stories come out. You put two people together, there's always a story.

Tara Khandelwal  16:53

And it's so real, you know, the best thing about I think both the books is that it's so simple. And it's so real. And you can just tell I mean hearing you speak so I can tell the complexity that it took to you know, make it that simple. And the process behind that, you know, making it look simple and effortless. Obviously, super hard work.

Vivek Shanbag  17:19

It is always it takes time to it is very difficult to write and write in a very simple way, it is very difficult. Because one is always trying to find the most appropriate way to express sometimes. And I don't believe that one must write beautifully, one must write really in the most appropriate way. I guess every writer wants to do this. I'm not saying I'm an exception to this. But that is always a struggle. Because many times it is difficult to overcome our own temptation to keep a sentence that is beautifully written by us. And one has to be very ruthless at the time of editing. Whether it is it really required the story really requires it or not. So it's difficult, it's difficult for a writer to overcome these things. And hence, it is very challenging.

Michelle D'costa  18:16

Yes, no, absolutely. So and I liked that you mentioned that Vijay and Venket are actually fundamentally quite different people. And what I liked, there was a common thread what brought both of them together, which was self help books, and I never expected that. I love that angle. Because you know, even they are seen both, though both of them sort of read self help books voraciously. Both of their approaches towards self help books is quite different, you know, and it's like, for example, you know, Tara and me, right? So like Tara is, for example, she views self read books very differently, I view it differently. So it's very interesting to even see that even if their thoughts match on a particular subject, there are nuances even in that. And I like what you mentioned, or about, you know, village life and how you have access to stories of other people, right, not just books, you know, it reminded us of a conversation with Mr. Davao that Bozo, because even he was saying that, you know, because he runs the shop in the small village in Guam, most of his inspiration came from the stories that his customers told him, you know, than the books that he will grown up with. So you know, coming back to your books. So one thing that I noticed that was a common thread between Sakina Vasquez and Richard Boucher, is that both of the titles are actually made up words or sort of interpretations of the characters, which I was very excited. It was like a eureka moment when I came across that. So just to give our listeners context, in in suckiness case, we actually find that out in the latter half of the book, we realize that it is sort of a misinterpretation of someone's handwriting, right? We all know that. You know, our handwriting is not that beautiful, it might be illegible at times. So this is what happens when someone reads out a letter. They assume that the words are actually suck in ASCII, but it's not. And when they actually find out what those words are, it's kind of too late and it's sort of I don't want to reveal or You know what happens, but it has a different meaning. And we also know that in Duchene culture, it is a made up word by the wife, when she's sharing an intimate moment with her husband, you know, just to sort of express that something is messed up. She says, Oh, this is guttural butcher. So I really like that you sort of made up these words for both of the books. I want to know if you've ever done this in any other books of yours, or is it just this similarity between these two?

Vivek Shanbag  20:24

It's only in these two books that it has so happened, and it's seen in gotcha, gotcha, I, I. The The reason why that word was created is to say in a way, that the experience that is captured in the book cannot be understood by what you already know. Yeah, you need to know something, you need to create something new to understand this. So that was really the suggestion in gotcha, gotcha. And second as case you know, you know what it is, so it's really, it is the need of the narrative. It's the need of the story. And not with any specific, there is no other motive behind this, I found that it was most appropriate., no other books of mine had such titles, I can assure you that they're all straight for me.

Tara Khandelwal  21:19

And speaking of your other books, you know, so we obviously we've read the two ones that have been translated to English, but you've written so much, and as you've written nine books of fiction, three books of plays. So why have only these two been translated into English and other plans of translating the other ones as well?

Vivek Shanbag  21:40

I started I mean, there are many other stories that are translated and appeared in many anthologies. But as novels these are the only two that are translated and mainly because I started with cultural Rocher because it was the shortest book. It was not my recent book. In fact, when Gottschall Bucha, was translated that I had already published another novel, written and published another novel after the butcher, but that was much longer. So wetter, which was the shortest, hence I started with that with sweetener. And then now this one, this is also shorter compared to the other ones, but the other novels are getting translated. So I guess, hopefully, you will get them very soon, next year or so.

Tara Khandelwal  22:31

Oh, wow. That's fantastic.

Michelle D'costa  22:35

Yes, very excited. So. And so there's one thing that I loved in both of these books, and I'm definitely looking forward to the others for this reason, which is that I love the female characters, because for some reason, I found them way more bolder, way more focused way more, you know, gutsy than the male characters. I know, it's obviously because of the storyline, and men here are clearly conflicted between, you know, tradition with their family expects of them what they expect of themselves. And then, you know, it's always, I would say, conflicts and layers that you bring up out very well. So it's not saying that one is better over the other, but definitely, I'm drawn to the female characters. And like, for example, you know, in gotcha, gotcha, the protagonist gets married and, and she finds so many things I sort of doesn't sit well with her. So for example, she notices that her husband's family doesn't treat a woman with respect, you know, a woman who comes to their house and actually sort of brings food for the oldest male member in the family and teachers shoo her away, as if you know, she's sort of a fly or, or something like that. And this girl just doesn't like it at all. And she even mentioned this to her husband and her husband is sort of, you know, again conflicted, because what can he see? Right? Does he even have the right to say something to an older male member or even to the other females in the family? So this is just an example. So I want to know who is your favorite female character out of all the characters that you've written so far? And why?

Vivek Shanbag  23:57

They it is difficult to pick one. It's difficult to pick Well, in Sakeena case, it is that woman who pretends to be deaf. She is, she is fantastic. She is you know how she deals with the men and patriarchy by pretending to be deaf, and then she abuses them when she needs to ask her something, she says something else entirely different. So that is her way of dealing with it. So I like that character very much. In second ASCII is of course there are in fact, in all my novels, women characters are very strong.

Tara Khandelwal  24:39

I also really liked that character. So she's a widower and she pretends to be there for me. He sort of like it reminded me of my grandma, my daddy. Also in sort of, she's 82 and she does have a problem with sometimes we always be like, Who's she just yourself? She has selective hearing. So that cat and she's also widowed now Obviously, so that character reminds me a lot of her because she's very strong minded and independent and sometimes chooses to hear things and misinterpret towards. So it was also very witty. That character. So speaking of you know, your other books and the language, the language, obviously, you know, I don't read Canada, so I had only access to the English version and the translation is what is so wonderful the language actually not that rude, you know, has portrayed your story, and it's just so wonderful. So can you tell us a little bit more about working with him? How did you find him? And how did you realize that he was the one that you wanted to work with?

Vivek Shanbag  25:44

I usually not for a long time. And he had shared some of his stories with me, though he has not published them. He's published some of them here and there. But I had read his book, his travelogue. And I felt that his sensibility was closer to mine. And I quite liked the language that he used in his book. And I approached him and asked him if he would like to translate. He had not done any translations till then, and he was not very sure if he can really do it, and then I told him, I'll work with them and we will do it, you know, that he must consider this seriously. And then he said, Okay, so, he took three days to read Hatcher divertor he had not read natural Bucha till then in Canada. So, he ready gotcha, gotcha. And after that, he came back saying, He will give a try. And that is how it all started. And yeah, and then the first chapter of gradual Bucha, he worked many times, till he got that tone, right. And once he got it, then after that, it was easy. Because see, the tone in a in a narrative is very important, it decides what kind of language you use, what kind of words you can use, and especially what kind of words you cannot use. So, it is, so once he got it once he got that character, right, and once he got that tone, right, then the rest of the thing was, you know, comparatively smooth, I must say. But then he gave several tries, he did it several times. Till he got it right.

Michelle D'costa  27:34

Ya know, and as we, you know, said, so it's actually quite a challenge to sort of write something in a simple manner. And that comes across, right, I think she not penjual has done a fabulous job with and the sentences itself, right. I mean, you know, that a lot of effort has gone behind that it's clearly, you know, doesn't seem effortless. So I'm really glad that this, you know, the sort of this, this match has worked, because it's clearly worked for Sakina ascus. Also, and we do hope that, you know, with the other books, we'll be able to see the other books very soon. So So one thing that I'm really curious about is, you know, your writing process and how it how it has changed over the years, right, because, you know, from what I read earlier, I know that you sort of had a very, you know, a disciplined sort of schedule where you wake up early in the morning, you spend, you know, certain time writing, and then you have your day job as an engineer. Right. So I'm very curious to know, has this routine stayed with you over the years? How has it even changed after gotcha Bucha has come out is are there any changes? or other sort of ADIF? Is there sort of a different approach that you have tried?

Vivek Shanbag  28:39

There is no reason why it should change after catcher which is because as I said, I have written even after 100 coaches, there is a novel there is a play No, there is another novel. So it's not that gotcha culture was my recent work or it's something that required me to change in my process of writing or style of writing. So I don't think that that voter is as affected in any manner. However, having said that, it's when you say writing practice, there are two things one is the actual act of writing what you just no describe it or getting up in the morning and this and that, but that was not by choice. Because I had a full time job, I had a day job, which was an I had a corporate job. So it required a lot of my time during the day. So I had to draw a very thick line between my work life and my literally life. So And which is why I found that very, what should I say? I found it. I found my time early in the morning when everyone else was sleeping and then I could do my reading and writing at that time and then after a certain time in the morning, then the rest of the day goes into you know other activities and my day job. So that is how I managed it and I feel that rhyme that decline between work life and literally life Help me, help me keep both worlds intact, separate and separate. Yeah, yeah, the other one is see as as a writer, I think I have, I try to keep with my work as as connected as possible till I complete it. Because it's always good and important to keep that intensity, keep that level of intensity high during writing. Otherwise, if you give a lot of time for it, there are a lot of things happening around you, there are events happening around you. And then they may impact your thinking. And sometimes we even think that whether it is what we are writing is really important. So those kinds of doubts start coming up if you give a long time. So I prefer to do first draft at least in the shortest time possible. And then later on, I work and I take a long time to edit, but that's the editing is then more of a craft. So the first time first draft is also important, because it allows a certain kind of a flow. And that flow is important because that you really get to know get to write something that is not known to you. It just flows it comes to you. So one must allow that to happen. Only then there is joy in writing in the magic of writing is in those moments. So that's that's how I write? Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's very special. A lot of people do it this way. So each one has his own way of doing it. And

while you are, you know, just explaining the process, I just went back and flashback mode, because even for me, I think since the past 10 years, I've been having this same similar routine. Of course, I'm not a morning person. I can't even imagine waking up in the morning and writing, but it's very, it's very similar, where I've had to balance writing and work. So for me, the experience is like, I'll wait for work to get over and and sort of write in the night like, I'll keep like two hours out of my day. Or if it's like a hectic day, then I sort of keep my weekends after writing. But yes, I've also sort of had to juggle between most of them, but but just like you so I think what I really like is to finish the first draft. I think that's very important. Because sometimes we tend to overthink, you know, and especially you tend to read one line again and again. And oh, God, I think that it is it can be an endless process. And I have abandoned many manuscripts just by overthinking like, Okay, what is the plot really say, what am I really doing, you know, and nothing has come of it. And the only time I've actually managed to finish my novel is when I just relentlessly kept returning to the page and kept just sort of, you know, meeting that word count and finishing the book once and for all. However bad it was, I would say the first draft is really bad, or at least mine is is really bad. And only in the next drafts did I actually sort of polish it and then make it better? But yeah, I do think that that sort of having this discipline or having some sort of vision helps. Or else you can just it's very easily sorry, it's very easy to abandon a creative

Vivek Shanbag  33:40

project. Yeah, but Michel, it is not a bad thing to abandon drafts, okay? Because no, I'm serious about this, because it is one of the things which is very important for a writer is to recognize false start. And you knock on many dose, and then sometimes you even go 50 pages, 60 pages, 70 pages, and then if you know that that is not the right low, you should have the courage to abandon it, you should just discard it and start all over again. None of this effort goes waste. It is because as a writer, you must start exploring things and discover things and then as in life, you encounter things and sometimes it is not possible to resolve. So what is it all this adds up to our experience of writing so don't think that abandoning is bad. I meant to ask me it's really a good thing for a writer. But he must keep writing keep knocking on the door and then when something opens up, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa  34:49

no, no, I agree so completely because because now in hindsight, when I look back at those drafts, it's it just it scares me so much that I don't want to even open so I'm happy and I'm actually happy, like you said, you know, it's in hindsight, you realize that, oh, that was not meant to be there was a clear reason it didn't work on but yes, I agree that it also doesn't go to waste because sometimes I have used chunks of older pieces in in New Works, you know. So, you know, so coming back to your book, I mean, gotcha poacher was a, it was an international sensation, right? It it just blew up, we know that there were versions published in the US in the UK, so many places. So I'm really curious to know, so, what was the reception like by a foreign audience right by an audience in the US in the UK, especially because the books was so closely associated with you know, family dynamics to do with Indian families residing in India.

Vivek Shanbag  35:44

Pick the book was very well received, as you've said, there were there are so many articles about it, so many reviews, so many responses, not just in the US and UK, but also in many other countries, the book is translated into 20 plus languages. So, the response is very good. And I see I grew up reading a lot of fiction, especially from other countries and other languages. And it's always interesting to see how and why these things are interesting to us, because there is a human story. And even today, if you read Tolstoy for example, it is not possible for us to imagine the physical details for example, the roads and the carriages and things like this, because we have not seen maybe we have seen it in films, but then but still, those stories move us as if they are happening in front of us. So, there is a certain way in which we connect with things that are that are outside US that are something you know, that are that we have not seen or that is and obviously it's all because they are all human stories. So I guess there is something that people have seen it gotcha gotcha. And though it is not it is an Indian story. But I believe there is some element to which which has appealed to the people. And as I have been, as I said, you know, I grew up reading things and I always found it interesting to read from other cultures, other languages, other ways of life, and other values, because they there is something that that opens up our minds to to the ways of living and worldviews of people. So it has a father as a writer, which has always helped me and I feel that with this book, it is constant into so many languages I feel I'm also connected to so many readers in different parts of the world, which is a very pleasant feeling.

Tara Khandelwal  38:01

And I'm sure the readers ready I was also curious to know other readers reactions, you know, your readers who read the book and the books in Canada, and then now who are reading in English? And is there any sort of difference in you know, what they're responding to their

have my Canada readers will not read it. Read the English version? I hope they don't because they are they? I personally I like my Canada version better than any other machine? Because that's the original one. And that that has certainly you know, more power than anywhere else. Having said that, I see every book every translation is different book. In English, it's it's it's it's a slightly different book in Marathi, it's a slightly different look in car company, it's slightly different, because the memory is that at walks are different, the same sentence may not mean the same thing may not evoke the same memories in in different languages. So, that to that extent, it is a slightly different experience while the story remains the same, but then overall experience may be slightly different, but that is inevitable for any translation any translation at any time in the history. So, one has to accept it.

Michelle D'costa  39:39

Yes, so and we know what I would have noticed. So see, translations have always been there, right. We have writers who have been writing in Indian languages for so long, but we have only seen them getting sort of international recognition right through English recently, right. And we have noticed that through prizes like the JCB the poker with you know, get our judiciary, it's quite recent. So I I want to know what's your opinion on this Why do you think it has taken so, long? You know even though these writers have been writing Indian languages for So, long

Vivek Shanbag  40:09

there are many reasons for this one is that we the translations across Indian languages have always been happening. So, as a writer for me, it is very important that I get translated into Malayalam, Tamil and Marathi and Telugu and all those languages because there is a wider readership the numbers are very high compared to English and there is a there is a different and I am right in, in in a certain culture and I write in a certain tradition. So, for me my own language is more important, which is why I have not been able to spend much time on translations because for me my own writing takes priority over translating into any other language and the second thing is that the translators especially translators into English there was not many good translators translating into English it has happened unfortunately, that the number of translators who could translate across Indian languages have reduced because of various issues including political see the the people coming from the border areas are the ones who translated across like the writers coming from Kerala Karnataka border were the translators into and from Malayalam. Similarly, Marathi similarly Tamil similarly Telugu, but now because of the border disputes not just disputes because of the hard lines drawn between these linguistic borders the schools for example, the Canada schools in Malayalam sorry in Kerala, Canada's schools in Marathi have reduced similarly the other way. So, you see that there is there are very few people translating now across Indian languages compared to what they were still there are many many, but then I'm saying compared to what they were 50 years ago, the numbers have reduced. Now, because of the English medium schools there are many people who can whose first language is English and who can also read and write Canada Malayalam, Tamil, Marathi. So, that is one reason why you see that English translations have increased. The other reason is that as a real, it was so easy for me to get rid of Malayalam book in Canada. Today I depend on its translation into English. The speed with which a Malayalam book gets into English is much higher than it gets translated into Canada today, unfortunately. So these are some of the reasons why English translations have gone up in the recent past.

Tara Khandelwal  43:20

Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's really very interesting. It's a different perspective on translations. And we also spoke to Arunava Sinha who mentioned that, you know, there's a need for more translators and, you know, I didn't know, the border and the politics that you mentioned. And it's so important for, you know, us new generations to be bilingual and to take an interest in different languages because that's how we're going to preserve all of these stories. so you know, like we have noticed that you have been writing in Canada right? That's the only language that you have been writing for a very long time you've you know, found and edited Dasia color which is a Canada journal. So you know, clearly the audience for Canada writing is there in Canada, right. But what has the reach beans of generally of Canada literature beyond its borders? What have you noticed?

Vivek Shanbag  46:01

I don't know what you mean by beyond borders, one is a physical border of course, today, the Canada is all over the world and with ebooks and print on demand, one has access to Canada books. So wherever one is in the world, the other is language barrier barrier. As I said, a while ago, the culture of translation across Indian languages was always there. So for example, my books have been translated into Malayalam and Tamil much before they were translated into English. So there is a current literature has always has readers beyond its linguistic borders as well, not everybody has readership. But then many of our writers have been translated into other Indian languages, and somehow been translated into English as well. But I would say that the readers from other Indian languages are quite familiar with Indian language of study for Canada language writers. Yeah,

Michelle D'costa  47:03

so you know, so there's a there's a term called FOMO fear of missing out now. I'm feeling a major FOMO because, I mean, because it's like English, you know, we are late to the party, but everyone else has sort of, you know, like, the benefits of

Vivek Shanbag  47:19

really because for example, I tell you, I wake up mama Bashir, I read him in Canada. I also read him in English, first I read him in English translation, but then I started looking for his books, I found many of his books in Canada. And there's such good translations into Canada fantastic translations and again, across Indian languages, it is because of the structure of the language because of the way it is written, you know, left to right. So, there is a lot of the impact of translation, I mean, the effectiveness of translation is much more when when it is across Indian languages than in English. Because English your verb is either at the beginning or the middle of the sentence, while in, in other Indian languages, it is at the end of the sentence. And it makes a lot of difference for writer, as you know, in writing craft, it makes a lot of difference, to keep the word word at the end, because you you take the reader through the sentence, and only when you get to the word that you know, what is the meaning of the sentence? And what are the other meanings of the sentence, right? But in English, you have no choice, you have to reveal it at the beginning. And it has lots of it means a difference that we this via said you know the the book in every language is a different book.

Tara Khandelwal  48:50

Yeah, yeah, I really liked that Porter book, and every language is a different book that has a lot of food for thought. And even in English. I mean, you can read both your books, you know, multiple times and get different things out of them. And I think that is the beauty of literary fiction. Where, you know, as you said before, you know, it's not a one time read, because every time you read it, a good literary fiction will reveal more things to you like layers of an onion, you know, and that I think is so fascinating in your writing. But coming to reading recommendations, I wanted to know from you, you know, what are some books that you would recommend to our listeners who might be interested in family stories like yours?

Vivek Shanbag  49:36

Yeah, more than family stories. I read. Two books recently, which I can recommend. One is JMO hunts. Stories of the true committed writer German, published by juggernaut it's an it's a it's a beautiful book of stories. The other one is tamatar Moses book, the weight, and other stories. See companies man That and by the way, my mother tongue is not Canada. So my mother tongue is company and I like the modal modules writing a lot. And especially this collection of stories is very interesting. So these two I would certainly recommend to the readers both happened to be the collections of short stories. Yes,

Michelle D'costa  50:20

yes. And we actually interviewed himself for the weight we loved it. And especially the story about you know, the the tiffin that two girls share where they shared like they that was the one of our favorite stories. Okay, so So coming to the second last round of the interview, this is a fun quiz. I'll be giving you three options, you will have to pick one. Okay. One aspect of Bangalore that you hate a traffic be the food see the pollution?

Vivek Shanbag  50:54

I think you ask anyone they would say traffic.

Michelle D'costa  50:59

One Canada word that you think is overused in everyday life. A good tila? B just the C yearly.

Vivek Shanbag  51:08

I think it is good Tila and the reason is that Bangalore is flooded by people from outside Bangalore. And they keep saying Canada with Tila my suggestion to them is Don't say Canada with the law. You say I'm learning Canada, Canada, Canada, because it's very positive instead of saying go Tila is very negative.

Michelle D'costa  51:33

Correct? Yes. I remember that. I spent like five years in Bangalore I remember that was a constant like especially to everybody Yeah, drivers shopkeepers. We kept repeating that everything.

Vivek Shanbag  51:46

Yeah, but it's them. And there's nothing wrong in saying I don't know the language. But I'm saying yes, yes, there is. It's always good to know good to ice. I grew up with five languages. But that was a different times. Yeah. So it is. It's not the same today. You go to school and all other languages are killed.

Tara Khandelwal  52:05

What are the five that you will wrap it so the my mother

Vivek Shanbag  52:09

tongue was company then Canada outside then I one of my aunt stayed with us. And she was an Hindi expert. So she forced Hindi on me. And in those days I hated it. But now I look back and I'm so grateful for her she made me pass all kinds of exams in the so that is one and then Marathi. My mother studied in Marathi medium. And then Marathi was something that I always enjoyed Marathi theatre, Marathi Sangeet Natak. Also because that part of Karnataka where I was born in grew up, belongs to Mumbai Karnataka provides earlier so there are lots of Marathi schools, and Marathi culture, including theater and even there were, there are Marathi schools, there were the films, which I, I remember saying. So that is, and then of course, English, needless to say, once you go to school. So that's, those are the languages I grew up with.

Tara Khandelwal  53:10

I think it's so interesting, you know, because every language that you learn, you sort of your whole brain opens up into a whole new world, you know, so I grew up obviously English and Hindi. And then in school, we learned a little bit of Marathi, which, you know, I don't use much anymore, but then your whole sort of, you know, like worldview also because you exposed to a different culture. And then I remember then I also learned French for four years, you know, that's completely different. And the, you know, the literature, all of that. So, I think it's interesting to see if

Vivek Shanbag  53:45

you enjoy, if you enjoy the pop culture of the language, the pop songs, films, theater, then you really enjoy that language, then you have some insight into that language by just being able to read and write it's not enough. You should be able to enjoy their films you should be able to enjoy the theater it should be then it's real fun. That's how I learned Marathi, but the Marathi is like I even now I like it so much because it it moves me when I listen to some sangat you know, not a Korean songs or whether it's something else it's really very and Hindi of course, because of films, Hindi films, and concrete was my language anyway, so yeah. Wow,

Michelle D'costa  54:31

that's who and that's very interesting that you mentioned Tara so French, I think recently I just had an introduction to French and I realized that they only have the usage of key and she like there's a masculine and feminine there's no they as part of it, and it made me experienced things or even like, you know, objects, it may be located in a very different way. Because in English we do experience it differently. So yeah, that is pretty much like

Tara Khandelwal  54:54

Yeah, I like the whole pop culture like if you like pop culture that you know the language but Anyway, yeah back. Last question of the quiz. Yes.

Michelle D'costa  55:02

One fun way to spend your free time. A music B movies, C traffic.

Vivek Shanbag  55:09

Movies. Yeah, I like to watch movies. Okay, of course I also listen to music by movies I would say number one. Okay,

Michelle D'costa  55:20

so just because I mean, you mentioned movies, is it Canada movies? I mean, I would just love to hear a recommendation from you because I

Vivek Shanbag  55:27

do not really. I used to watch but not anymore. Now movies from you know how it is now you can movies you can see from any part of the world. Everywhere. It's yeah. So I like to watch movies.

Tara Khandelwal  55:48

Okay, that brings us to our last section, which is the rapid fire round, so so you'd have to answer in one word or one line. I can start one way in which you relax after a tiring day.

Michelle D'costa  56:04

Work. Nice. Okay. Which Canada fairytale that you grew up hearing?

Vivek Shanbag  56:17

The story of pernickety.

Michelle D'costa  56:20

Oh, that is similar. My father actually sings that every time and you know, he's Oh, I didn't know that. It was a common.

Tara Khandelwal  56:27

Never heard. Michelle will have to tell. Touching. Okay, so what place would you like to cover in your book next?

Vivek Shanbag  56:39

What do we replace location? Yes, yes. No, no. Me shade me.

Michelle D'costa  56:48

Okay, um, one author that you recently started readingYeah. You've danlos WEBO is the writer whom I read, whom I discovered recently, though, he has been right. He is one of the pioneers of modern Italian writing. I had not read it. And I read it very recently. And I liked him immensely.

Tara Khandelwal  57:40

Wow. Okay, what's the next few? Knowledge? What is it about? I don't know.

Michelle D'costa  57:56

It's a very, very smart when you

Tara Khandelwal  58:00

read it, the translation?

Michelle D'costa  58:04

Yeah, what? Sir, this this brings us to the end of the episode. I wish we could go on and on because there's so much to uncover about Canada literature about translations about so much about your own work, because you have written so much. But this was one of the most fun episodes that we've had. Thank you so much. So it was it was a pleasure.

Vivek Shanbag  58:24

Damien, I really enjoyed both of you. And the questions were interesting. The conversation was very interesting. And thanks for this. Thank

Tara Khandelwal  58:33

you. So I think it was sort of always one of our, you know, when we started the podcast, we wanted to interview you. So thank you for bucketlist thank you for coming on the podcast and really looking forward to your next books.