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Books and Beyond with Bound
Welcome to India’s No. 1 book podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover the stories behind some of the best-written books of our time. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, and insecurities to publishing journeys. And how these books shape our lives and worldview today.
Tune in every Wednesday!
Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Get in touch with us at connect@boundindia.com.
Books and Beyond with Bound
5.35 Nadeem Zaman: Meet The Great Gatsby of Bangladesh
What ugly truths lie behind the carefully curated social circles in Dhaka’s high society?
In this episode, Tara and Michelle converse with Nadeem Zaman, author of “The Inheritors”, as he talks about privilege, parties, and politics in Dhaka. In a delightful mix of satire and social commentary, his book explores Nisar’s eye-opening journey back to his hometown as he uncovers secrets and revisits his childhood “home”.
Tune in to hear Nadeem Zaman talk about what it’s like to party with the elite in modern-day Dhaka, the class disparity he witnessed growing up, why his book has not been published in the US, and his upcoming work of fiction.
Authors mentioned in this episode:
Mira Sethi
Jhumpa Lahiri
Taslima Nasreen
Sharbari Zohra Ahmed
Books mentioned in this episode:
Citizen By Descent- Kritika Arya
The Great Gatsby- F. Scott Fitzgerald
Independence- Chitra Banerjee Divakaruni
Destination Wedding- Diksha Basu
Equations- Shivani Sibal
Crazy Rich Asians- Kevin Kwan
Pineapple Street- Jenny Jackson
Truth or Dare: And Other Stories- Nadia Kabir Barb
Produced by Aishwarya Javalgekar
Sound edit by Kshitij Jadhav
‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.
00:05
Welcome to Books and Beyond with bound. I'm Tara Khandelwal. I'm Michelle D'costa. And in this podcast, we uncover the stories behind some of the best written books of our time and find out how these books reflect our lives and our society today. So tune in every Wednesday to enter a whole new world with a new author. And a new idea. Yes, and after three years and 2 million listens, we are back with our factories and five with hard hitting questions and life changing books. So let's dive in.
00:43
Hi, everyone. We are stoked to speak to our very first Bangladeshi writer on this podcast and he is none other than the US Aman, who is the author of the inheritors, which covers modern day haka. Were alone with the city, its people are also evolving. Yeah, it was such a fascinating outlook into a city that is still reeling from the repercussions of independence to how the rich navigate their lives today, you know, do they have double lives? What are their true colors in a country which is not rich, right? And it's a satire, it's a sharp commentary on society. And it reminded Michelle and we have our one of our favorite books, The Great Gatsby. Yes, I noticed that it actually will show you a side of DACA that you might have not seen or not heard of before, you know, the wealth of parties, alcohol, gossips so much more. And the way he does it is through many interesting characters, like the enigmatic Jeanette Ghazi, who's actually the business tycoon who wants to buy the protagonist Nestle's ancestral property, which is up for sale. And then we have the beautiful and charming the Shah, who is not only Ghazi, his ex wife, but he turns out to be naissance cousin and secret crush. So does Ghazi still love the Shah? You know, does he have an ulterior motive for actually wanting to buy Nissan's house? How do all these characters come together? So let's find out from none other than at the gym, please welcome us into this exclusive members only club at the EU. And welcome to Books and Beyond. Thank you so very much. It's a privilege. It's really, really very nice to be here with you. Yes. And you know, I found it really cool that you actually chose the beat points of The Great Gatsby as as your framework to bring out the most unique aspects of Dockers modern society. And we read that, you know, actually, early 2021, when you included The Great Gatsby in your syllabus, you know, because you teach creative writing. And that was a point where you had this eureka moment where it struck you that you know, it had all the right elements that hit all the right spots, like, you know, what was it that actually convinced you to use it as a frame. With writing, I like I like to have something in the burner all the time, whether it's going to be something published, or whether it's going to be something I didn't finish. I just like having something to work on on a daily basis. In the spring of 21. We were completely remote with with my classes. So my classroom was my, my my home office. And we were it was a it was a literature class that I was that I was teaching, of course. But it was a general literature. It wasn't for just majors, English majors. And so I had Great Gatsby and I had no idea what would happen. Even in December when I was making the syllabus, and we had this lively conversation. I love teaching. And the part of the teeth of teaching that I love is of course engaging with the students and students are bright, they're always bringing ideas that I I you know, no matter how many times I may have read a book or taught it, I'm going to I am going to learn something new. And I was on this book that I think will eventually kill me.
04:05
Because I've written many iterations that I'm back working on a part of it again, to turn it into a book by itself. And so then I am having this discussion I went, you know, I seem to have hit a wall. So maybe I need something fresh and new. And as Michelle just mentioned that something clicked. And it was really like that. It was just this moment going, this discussion that I'm having about wealth and class and privilege.
04:33
You know, and veneers and, you know, connections between people. My goodness, How often have I talked about with my other Bangladeshi friends, writers, people within my circles about these aspects of taka these aspects about Bangladesh, and I went, how great would it be to reimagine Gatsby for example and
05:00
I just kind of that's the only thought I had, I didn't outline I didn't do get into anything. I just said, Okay, I'm going to read the book again. And I'm going to start just kind of playing with this idea. I consciously knew it was going to be Gatsby and taka, when it came to it. And once I started working, after the first couple of drafts happened, I said, Oh, okay, this is going to be its own book as well.
05:26
So those elements that are there,
05:30
that that aligned with Gatsby, they have their space, and then I had to go, where I had to go to take the book to taka, and allow it to be what it needed to be in order to represent taka as best as possible. Through my eyes, of course, it's actually one of the reasons that I found the book so fascinating, right, because it marries this sort of novel that, you know, the whole world knows, you know, The Great Gatsby the beats of the story, as Michelle said, and it's so wholly unique and authentic, in the fact that it is very much a representation of the society and NACA and what you're, you know, the social commentary, via the characters, the kind of social norms, you know, family structure, so basically very similar to sort of, you know, South Asian culture and Indian culture as well, relating to the Gatsby part, actually, you know, so many contemporary books remind us of classics, for example, Chitra Banerjee is recent book independence was marketed, you know, they used the Little Women analogy to market the book. So, I was just curious, you know, why the Gatsby element was not promoted, promoted by a publisher, when the book was released, because it's not in the cover, it's not in the sort of marketing material. And when you read it, you know, though those of us who sort of like are familiar with Gatsby
06:53
are like, well, this is a lot like Gatsby, and then, you know, it turns out it was it was very intentional. So on your part, of course, right. So so why was that a decision from you and the publisher? Right, right. Yeah, no,
07:08
it was entirely a shets. Call. And the only person to whom
07:16
that I mentioned, this was happening at the time, going back to that point in 2021, was to my agent, kind of sugar Gupta. And I just remember sending him a one line message saying, I may have something that you might want to read, but maybe you want.
07:34
That'll be that'll be your choice. But I'm thinking the Great Gatsby intaka. And it's, he's such a busy person, he'll get back to me eventually. But it may take him a day, maybe, you know, five, six hours, what have you with the time difference, but he got back to me immediately. And he said, finish it. And I was like, Well, I've, I've only put the title on the page. So give me a little time he goes, Yeah, you finish it, finish it, and send it to me as soon as you have whatever you have.
08:03
And so then when it went to being acquired by his shed, and we are going through that, everything that is going to be part of getting the book out in the world. I actually asked the question, are we not going to play up the Gatsby Park? And they very consciously said, you know, let's just leave it out. Let's give the book its space and time.
08:26
Let the book brief. And there's really no need to actively push, you know, The Great Gatsby. And I said, you know, why not? Why not? And so,
08:39
reviews, I try to stay clear. But usually, usually, your one is able to tell from the from from a tone, perhaps in the title, which way it might go. And so far, the reviews have been stellar.
08:56
Everybody seems to have their reviewers since I've left the book.
09:01
And then the latest one that came out.
09:05
The reviewer asked kind of in a tongue in cheek way. Like, was this intentional? And I'm saying to myself, Yes, ma'am. It was. It really was i i wish i could have a conversation with you and tell you.
09:20
I'm glad you read the book for everything else. But yeah, it was very intentional. So those those that knew that I was doing this knew what was up. And those to whom it came as a surprise. How wonderful I love it. I love hearing that. Yeah, and what I really liked about it is I got to see a different side on taka, right, like growing up in the Gulf. I've had Bangladeshi friends, you know, even Christian, Bangladeshi. So I have seen you know, different types of document your book gave me a whole different viewpoint, you know, because what it also focuses on the lives of the wealthy. What it also does is it brings in characters having a huge class difference, right on one hand, we have Nisar
10:00
Who's actually an immigrant, the son of rich Bangladeshi parents, and he's on a trip to Dhaka to write a book. On the other hand, you have raised caca, who is actually working for naissance family as a household. Right. And this contrast comes across very starkly in the book. So I want to from your experience, you know, is contrast white apparel today in Dhaka society? What was your experience? It's, it's very, very apparent, yes. And in fact, the person to whom
10:29
race kaka is kind of is modeled on he exists in our life. And he's by far my most favorite person in the world, I just absolutely adore him. And he's been on our family before I was born. My my grandfather adopted him. That's all I know. And I think from the late 60s to now, he's been there as a second parent. So I did get to see him after many years, when I visited, he's still part of the family, but he's no longer in the family, the way he was once upon a time, because he
11:06
just the same as rice, caca. You know, he went off and had his own life. Worked, still works. He's a, he's a driver, for a very wealthy person, I never met that his employer. And I just, you know, kind of wonder that, you know, he's just, he's just gone through his life. He's, I've never heard him complain about anything.
11:33
He listens to our complaints, he's listened to three generations of complaints from our family.
11:39
But I have never, he, even when his wife passed away, and you know, his complications in life, I would never know, I would never know. But that part of it has never changed. Wherever he is, however he's living or people like it, or let's just bring, make it about Rice Ganga, however he's living now is it and he's content, he's accepted it. But there's also this kind of very sinister, I think sinister is a good word, that this is just how it's going to be. I'm not supposed to be that I'm not supposed to be wealthy, I'm not supposed to be
12:18
of that upper class, because I don't know, this is what I was born to. So these really insidious kind of ingrained ways of thinking, that that are part of class that are part of structures that are part of, you know, where where I belong, and what I am and what I shouldn't be what I shouldn't aspire to.
12:37
So they're, they become so stark, that even through Nisyros eyes, I had to be aware of bringing in any kind of privilege, and saying, Oh, well, if you didn't do if you do this, and if you do that, then you can better yourself. How condescending would that be? You know, how just blatantly offensive would that be? If somebody was saying that to me, and I'm going, Okay, it's kind of like, living here in the US and listening to the Uber wealthy billionaires.
13:13
You know, politicians, once upon a time that constructed this whole idea of, oh, if you don't have the American dream, whatever that's supposed to be because it doesn't exist, then you're lazy, then you're shiftless, then you have then you're not pulling your own. But it takes one, it took me 30 years, 30 plus years of living in this country to understand that every one of those people that are saying that had a leg up in the world, they had doors open for them. And that makes a huge difference. You know, this whole idea of, you know, pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, which is physically impossible, because it's not, it's physically impossible. And it's a faulty narrative. And, and I saw that connection. Go Oh, Nizar has a huge leg up in the world.
14:12
I did two choices, different choices were made by my parents. But if I stayed in taco, I could have had everything I could have wanted something at, you know, 745 in the morning, and I would have had it at eight o'clock, whatever that may be. And so the to understand that to understand how
14:34
they're this vast, vast gap exists between what we can desire and what we can have. And what we understand our limits are. It's really humbling, I guess, in a way and for a writer, that's the only way that I could have
14:50
worked it out, I guess. Yeah. I think that you know, I went to study in the US and obviously, you know, growing up in a country like India
15:00
Have you think very differently about how, you know class mobility? And in the US, I think that was the first time I heard the argument that oh, people are lazy, you should like be, you know, picking up the bootstraps, because we are living in a different reality.
15:16
You know, in India, where that's just not possible,
15:20
you know, if you if you come from a family where you sort of have those privileges, then,
15:26
you know, show up, but exactly what you said. But what I really liked about the book is, obviously, you know, that social commentary. So what would you say is, you know, apart from, you know, the fact that it's said in the haka, and you use that to sort of, you know, bring out
15:45
these differences in class bring out, you know, the social commentary on the wealthy class in Africa, what would you say, is the biggest differentiator between your story and the one in Great Gatsby? So to get into specifics,
16:00
I would say that there's a part in Gatsby because Gatsby is not even 50,000 words, the mystery of Gatsby's background.
16:10
It's, it's alluded to, and then we just leave it there. So there were I found opportunities there to flesh that out. And that worked nicely, because I was able to have the character of asthma, the journalist, because there's that scene in Gatsby when, once Nick has moved in next next to him. He's coming home one day after after working, and he sees this young reporter snooping around. And Nick goes, Can I help you? And the reporters like, yeah, the big man that lives here, where is he? Oh, you mean, you know, Gatsby. And then the reporter in a couple of paragraphs, tells him about Gatsby face, suspicious background and where his money may have come from. And then he disappears. So that was one opportunity. The other opportunity I found was with jasmine, who was loosely the analog of Jordan Baker. And I thought Jordan Baker is such a compelling and beautiful character in Gatsby and just not developed. Every time Jordan entered the scene, you know, she stole it. She started with her spirit with how she was talking. She has all the knowledge and the inside scoop, gossip, if we want to call it
17:33
but she is also just brought up and shunned away. So those places were were I found that, okay, this, this is where I can, I can just kind of build the character I like and move on and kind of give them their life, a more rounded, richer life. So a jasmine, I had no idea. I just I had no idea that she was going to have that connection to the US that she was going to have that history that she did when she was here. And then that's going to be part of what has as Nisar says, you know, here's this compelling, beautiful, oriented woman who wants me
18:17
to be with her more
18:20
and hit I am here looking looking at her as if I have no idea what's going on, you know, to kind of paraphrase, also with Ghazi himself, he comes from this fraud history himself. And of course we learn about that from from asthma, I was kind of running on two tracks. So all of the points that you brought up about showing the social, the the the socio political, the socio economic, kind of settings, yes, that's always there. But then there are these personal lives happening.
18:57
And those lives, we see one side of it, the world sees one side of it. And then there's a there's a side, that's, that's not out there. That's either being seen by just a close view, or just the people themselves. And so when that world becomes so narrow that it becomes between Nisar and Disha SR and, and and Ghazi that's when we start to see all the complications that won't become public knowledge. And I guess
19:31
in that moment of trying to make a human connection, what uh, you know, I wonder I go, Okay, if I put these two people in a room together, what would they talk about? You know, if they said Look, no one is listening. I don't talk I don't live in taka. You know, I don't care if we're talking about so. So if you're going to if you're going to tell me something, tell me. You know, don't don't don't give me this. You know, in the morning and this in the afternoon and this at night. Just give it to me straight and he
20:00
It's just impossible to get that even when Ghazi is trying to tell him.
20:05
I'm not keeping anything from you. But he's having to go in this roundabout way to uncover all of that. And it really is infuriatingly like that.
20:17
So so those were places that I found that I could expand, I could just have those human character arcs, a lot more than I found in Gatsby. Right. And I wanted to mention that Jasmine is actually one of my favorite characters, I was rooting for the female characters in the book, where, of course, the Shah, who is you know, the very obvious protagonist, but we also have asthma for those who is this journalist and I was really interested to see the sort of angle that she brings to the story. And I really liked how you made her sort of reveal the true side of Kasi and his family. But But coming to Jasmine, I think this is where we had earlier mentioned double lives, you know, how these people live a completely different life abroad. So it was very heartbreaking to arrive at that scene, sort of this backstory that you give Jasmine, you know, she sort of had an affair in the US. And it's something that she kept as a secret. She didn't even reveal to her parents she or not uploaded pictures on social media, it was really heartbreaking. Because you you see the struggle, and it's more of, you know, I would say family ties, cultural struggle, there's so much undertones that goes with this. And what I find really interesting is Nadine, you know, this aspect of covering the wealthy society, right, it's been done time and again. And we've spoken to a lot of authors, like diksha. Also, you know, who covers this elite world of Delhi, in her novel, destination reading, right, and we have Shivani Sybil, who's also done this in equations, and as Mayra Satie who's done this in her short story collection about Pakistan, right, so many books written about it, especially, you know, even Crazy Rich Asians, then we even have pineapple Street, which is very recent. So you know, what, according to you make these books? Still interesting, right? So let's say, you know, when a writer wants to approach this topic, how do they still make it relevant how they still make it unique, despite it being written. So I think this, all of the titles that you mentioned, all of the authors that you mentioned, they are recent, there is certainly a growing, vibrant set of voices that are, whether they're writing in South Asia, or whether their voices living in the West, England, UK, sorry, US, Canada, as South Asian authors.
22:37
We are developing Sure, but at the same time, we have been boxed into so many, so many kinds of places where we can write about so, you know, over here, and by over here, I include the global West, English speaking global West UK, US, Canada.
22:58
You know, for the longest time, we were either writing immigrant novels,
23:03
or, you know, we're writing a novels that are constantly within the same framework. So within the same tropes, you know, and those, and those include the tried and tested arranged marriage, the tried and tested, you know, why? Why Am I gay? She, you know, why, why, why do I have to be brown and have a name that nobody can and can say, culture, culture, clashes and struggles. So, we're, I think this is not only getting away, but also a really nice return to all of the all of the aspects that we have in mind yet.
23:39
So you mentioned Divakaruni, you know, she kind of wrote literally wrote the books on that kind of merging of cultures and those tensions. Then we have, for example, Jhumpa Lahiri, who took the bourgeois
23:57
and put them into places like MIT, you know, they're going to be wealthy people at some point. And so she put them in those places, but at the same time hurt
24:08
them as much as they're very big. All these stories, they're very story is very much rooted in her Bengali, her Indian background, but also very conscious about the fact that she grew up here. And this she, she, she read certain, certain books, and she understood storytelling in certain ways. I may I may recognize my dad or my mom or my grandparents and some other people, but I'm at the heart of it, something else was going on. So it's this gradual kind of getting away.
24:41
That has led here and I think, if I'm, if I'm to bring in my perspective, it went that way going, okay, look, I guess I can write about these cultural aspects for as long as I'm writing.
24:55
But I've also I've also ignored
24:59
many of them
25:00
things that interests me about being Bangladeshi being, you know about
25:06
having my ears to the tracks about what's going on over there. It's not a coincidence, I think it's it's another aspect, it's another developing moment of all of these offers going.
25:18
There is a lot going on here that we hear ourselves talk about that we hear ourselves, you know, discuss and argue, think about class, you know, privilege money.
25:32
Not the, you know, not having it.
25:35
The super rich versus, you know, everybody else. And then we go, Wait a minute, I'm, I don't have to look too far. I'm in it. I'm in it. So where am I going to look for, you know, permission or an opening to do it. But we have about we start interrogating that now. So I completely see that as a conscious and active engagement, as opposed to oh, it just happens, that we're doing this at this moment right now know, the world, our situation, our stories, our histories, it's leading us to a certain conclusion, I think, and a crisis in a good way.
26:12
No, absolutely. And, you know, what I found very interesting about your story is that I read in an interview that you said that, you know, Nisar is not you, you know, there's a lot of difference between you and the protagonist. And also, you know, what you said, also makes me wonder, and the type of stories that were telling, because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, the authors that we speak to also, you know, the English speaking, they obviously sort of brought up in a particular way that allows them to have this progress with the language, they are privy to a certain section of society, which is why, you know, even though the characters might not be based on,
26:55
you know, your sales people, they are privy to a certain sort of section of society that allows them access to write about things like class things about the super wealthy. So, could you tell us, you know, what is your background? How did you have access to the set of people that you delineated? So well, you know, we see the double standards, as Michelle said, we see the partying, we see the class differences, we see the internal struggles that come with the position and society. So how did you sort of, you know, have access to this? So I was born into that privilege.
27:32
And so imagine, you know, of course, we look at a map of India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, and India is the massive diamond right in the middle. Right. And then there's Pakistan. And then there's, there's this, there's Bangladesh, right there. It's the size of perhaps approximately the state of Minnesota. And it has a population of 180 million. It's just mind boggling. So you mentioned at the opening,
28:04
the independence, the 1971. War and independence, the emergence of Bangladesh, the, the nation state. So that is the generation of my parents. And so coming out of that, many things happened as far as what people did with their lives. So in, in on my dad's side,
28:30
all of his siblings, left the country, he was the only one that state and he goes, and he just want it to be in the country. He goes,
28:39
you know, the everything, I guess that goes with that mentality that told him Look, what's the point in fighting, doing all this fighting and marching and, you know, freedom if I'm gonna leave
28:54
something along those lines. So he built his business, and at the time it was talking about was small, and all of the families of privilege and wealth married into each other. I often say that when I'm in taka, even now, having been so far removed from it,
29:14
that
29:16
it that I become conscious, I become really conscious of the fact that if I mentioned an uncle, if I mentioned an auntie, if I mentioned a cousin, chances are they'll end up being either an MP or some kind of noted person noted celebrity and it happened every single time. So I end up sounding as though I'm dropping names. And and I'm trying to be you know, and I'm trying to get doors open. I said no, you asked me who my real relatives are. I'm telling you, and they say oh, wait a minute.
29:50
Are you talking about the same this person who is the famous this? I go? Yes, but please, that you said that I didn't
30:00
I'm, and I'm not using that name to get around. So I was born. That's the kind of privilege I was born into lots and lots of wealth.
30:08
You know, everything, as I was saying earlier, anything and everything I wanted, I would have it, I would get it. My parents had a massively vibrant social life. They partied all the time.
30:22
So the uncles or the Auntie's are either coming over, or we're going over to their place. And, you know, the kids hang out, and the parents have their have their all night session.
30:34
And then the bigger parties, it's the if I were writing this book, 40 years ago, that would be the generation I'm showing.
30:44
So that was my in. However, that ended for me very early. Because we left the country when I was 15. And from 15, on I've lived in the US.
30:57
So I was completely disconnected from all those friends, peers, relatives, elders, everybody. And those, we all went our separate ways. And, and my friends, people my age, they did the same thing. They went abroad, UK, US, Canada,
31:16
they studied, got their degrees and came back.
31:21
I did
31:23
for various reasons, family complexities and, and complications. And we stayed here. So
31:30
all of that privilege, all of that wealth went away. I was over here, going to high school, and then going to college. And then working.
31:40
And
31:42
how I reconnected was, I went back after many years in 2017.
31:48
And I got in touch with with with people and one person whom, alas, we lost to too early. My friend, numero three was a beautiful writer, he was the first person that I that I contacted, and I would hang out with him all the time when I lived there for a year, no matter passed away, in an accident in 2018. So no matter would have had all the social connections. And we live walking distance. And so I would call most most evenings we would we would exchange messages. And if it was if he said, Look, I'm just sitting here, come on over, I would walk over, and then the night would begin.
32:31
And me I'm thinking,
32:34
yes, I've done my share of partying here. And then I was at a point where I was like, well, it's 930 What's going to happen now and and he was like, 939 30 is the middle of the day. Do you know these people, these people are still working. So they're going to eat dinner at 11. And then the party is going to start at one.
32:53
And I said, You want me to be awake that long? Okay. So then I would go and and we will do the rounds. And those rounds kind of became the composite for my knowledge and my entrance. And
33:09
it's an education. I was every time, every time because I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know. I met couples that were couples. And then I saw them in different situation with other situations with other people. And that's wonderful. You know, whatever kind of life you live, live it. I love it. You know, that's your decision. No judgement. But to me.
33:35
It was constant observation. It was constantly as the Shah says as one at one point, like Nisar, my little brother, you think this just started yesterday, you think this started when you landed in taka, it's always been this way. We just find stories to tell ourselves of what is and what isn't. And what we need to know what we don't need to know and what we do here. And then tomorrow or Friday when we're at Juma. We're going to say no, I'm not hungover. I just didn't sleep too well last night, but you know, a load or whatever, you know, so so that that duality
34:13
was picked up. Something came up, I saw another article or something. And the title was, it wasn't even about the inheritors, but the title was tacos Muslim elite parties and drink, drink and party and dress up as Barbie. And it actually had to do with this young Bangladeshi woman who I loved reading about her she's you know, this kind of defiant I'm gonna live my life however I do and and not go with the hypocrisy of society, religion, what have you. And so, there's this opening paragraph about her and I'm reading away and I'm going I'm loving this. And then the next paragraph says, It is in this it is this world that that the themes, demands, inheritors shows, I go oh,
35:00
Oh, I didn't, I didn't, I had no idea the inheritors was about this. So this idea, all of this these identity and lifestyle choices that are,
35:12
again, you know, you live how you live, your privacy is your business. But it's also really interesting and perplexing, at the same time to see. Everybody knows. So what is the deal with the, with the story? There's, there's the there's the PR story, and then there's the real story.
35:31
It's compelling. It's I mean, narrative tension, narrative tension happens in that way, you know, so looking at it as a writer is the only way that makes sense. And that's how that's my access. And if I were to go back, I would find myself at that party, probably two hours after I'm, I've left the airport. Today, this is really cool to, you know, understand that from your point of view, let me because I'm that person where, you know, if you say there's a party after 930, I'm like, What, are you kidding me? Is it like 930 in the morning, because I was telling Carol this that these characters hop from one party to another party to another party, and I'm like, Okay, this has to end you know, if there's one more party they're going to attend, I'm going to shut the book. I told her, and she said, Oh, but that's the best part of the book, let's see what's happening at another party. You know, so it is very interesting. At the same time, it's also exhausting, like, like, I wonder how do they actually keep up the social life, you know, going from party to party, and as you said, they have a very different pace for PR, and they have a different pace. Apart from that, you know, so I'm really curious to know about the reception of the book, in the US and in Bangladesh, right? And I'll tell you, why. Because in the US, I mean, we all know that, you know, there are certain stereotypes or like you said, there are certain tropes, which have been sort of followed over the years, right. And I constantly seek out immigrant stories. And usually you see the stereotype of poverty of struggle, right. But your your book Mossad is from a very different background, right? So what was the reception like in the US? You know, have they read the book? or what have you thought of it? Did it sort of change what they thought about DACA? And on the other hand, in Bangladesh, we do know that the book is a satire, right? And you have sort of highlighted a lot of problematic elements of taka society today. So even, you know, involving corruption, to incompetent politicians to everything. So I'm really curious to know, did they actually take offense? Did they didn't Did they say, Hey, but this is not what happens. Like, what do you say?
37:30
So on the DACA question, I have yet to see that objection. I haven't yet.
37:38
The people from whom I've heard are people I know. And
37:43
no, as in their their friends, of course, but at the same time, they're critical readers. So they will tell me, they will share or I will ask them, you won't hurt my feelings. Go ahead. One person, you know, she said, You know,
38:02
I picked it up. And next thing I know, I was finishing it. And, and, you know, she was very complimentary. And other friend, about a week and a half ago, she also wrote about, she messaged me about something else talking about the book, and she goes on halfway through. very relatable. And I look forward to talking to you. I said, yeah, it's been a while. So let's catch up. So as of as of yet, reviews notwithstanding,
38:34
I don't really know what the general landscape is, of, of the booked reception.
38:42
As far as specifically, you know, you know, we objected this or, you know, this is not how it is, or how could you do this, any of that. I haven't seen that. So good news so far. But even if that happens, I'm intrigued, because I'll be like, oh, what nerve Did I hit? And please tell me.
39:00
So there's that. As for the US, here's the thing. It's not been published in the US, I have actually been struggling, struggling in the sense of the US publishing industry is extremely insular. And it's very, very much given to trends. It's very, very much given to you know, the market.
39:24
So I've been battling or rather trying to get a footing with the US publishing industry publishing industry for over a decade now. So the book has not seen a US Publication yet.
39:36
And part of that reason, there is no one reason at the moment.
39:43
The biggest the biggest things that are part of what is getting published here our debut novelists,
39:51
these agents and publishers, they're all there. They're all there promoting our debuts which is fantastic. You know,
40:00
debut novelist, of course, no matter, you know,
40:04
whether I read the books or read them and like them or have whatever opinion on them, that's great. The other thing is,
40:14
especially since 2020,
40:17
since the George Floyd murder, there was this resurgence, sudden resurgence on racial justice and racial Reckoning and representation. And there was a major aspect of it that had to do with publishing. And so the publishing industry, tried to, at least in the moment, tried to make changes.
40:39
They haven't gone too far.
40:41
You know, it was like a couple of couple of people were changed at the top of the
40:48
two of the big
40:51
publishing companies. So just as with I was reading not too long ago, a,
40:58
an article about, especially with white Americans and their support for black lives matter. Like it, it peaked right after George Floyd. And then after all of that went away, and after Derek Chauvin was sentenced to prison, it went back to, you know, indifferent.
41:16
So these are all connected, these are all connected. And so what's what's happening is okay, basically, between the market and between what's going to make the money, the stories again, that are going to that are going to see the light of day are not going to be
41:36
this multi voice, multi, you know, kind of perspective.
41:42
You know, there's there's an aspect of it, that's very tokenizing.
41:47
My friend, RF Anwar,
41:50
also a writer, he lives in Canada.
41:54
He was told, basically told by an agent, one time that we love your book, but the reason we can't take it this quarter, or take it at all, is because we just published another book in which there is a Bangladeshi character.
42:09
It's not even a book about Bangladesh. So these are the odds that are constantly there. And add to that, all kinds of other issues. You know, you name them, I've heard them. So I want to see if the book ever sees the light of day in the US
42:31
what the reception will be, which is why after my first, when I was shopping, my first book, I finally said to myself, look, my my novel is about the Liberation War, and Bangladesh, the US here's, here's another aspect of that, Bangladesh is not even a blip on the US is radar. India has a major presence, Pakistan surely has a major presence. That's the extent of South Asia. When I went to the bookstores,
43:02
Tuesdays are when the new titles come out here.
43:06
And I saw, this was in July, and I saw about five new titles by either authors from India or
43:16
authors of Indian origin living here. I was like, this is fantastic. I love this. However, when was the last time I saw a title from Bangladesh. So so when it gets specific like that, I start to wonder what's missing over here. It's just a lack of knowledge. I joke and I really, really joke, and I mean, this jokingly, and I've said this to many people, I said, the reason Bangladesh hasn't isn't a major concern for the US right now is a we're not nuclear, and the US hasn't bombed us. So one of those two, as soon as that happens, I'm probably going to see agency pages saying we want stories out of Bangladesh, what is happening with you. Now you people suddenly exist.
44:01
You know, it's like, I think it was in the Moors last sight when Aurora. Morrison's mother says, you know, these Europeans, they keep saying they discovered and uncovered India when were recovered.
44:14
We've been here
44:16
and you walk in, and suddenly we exist, have to say, Yeah, and I think the Great Gatsby is a good in, like, in fact that the first step I found out that it's actually you know, sort of withdraws from that I think it's really good. And while this would be huge in the US, I do hope there is a publisher in the US who is listening to this today. And they do pick up your book and I just want to add that Yes. You know, even with these Indian stories, what I have heard from a writer is that it often has to fit a certain stereotype. So there was a publisher who actually told a writer that where are the mangoes in the stories? alliteration there, okay, but like I just don't want to have mangoes we said no, but you need to have mangoes because that's what people think Indians eat. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with you know what? Both of them
45:00
You guys are saying, and it makes me think about the Indian publishing industry, right? Because, you know, we've spoken to a few Pakistani authors, Nepalese authors, your first Bangladeshi author, and I hope that we interview a lot more.
45:15
And the Indian publishing industry is, you know, publishing sort of, you know, voices across South Asia, which I think is completely is really fantastic, and that we have that readership. But I also wonder, you know, in terms of, you know, is it able to absorb all of the plurality all of those voices? You know, are there enough slots available for books that are sort of, you know, diverse, because at the end of the day, even the Indian publishing industry is a business? So, what, like, what would you say about that, and you know, what is happening and sort of like the literature scene that's coming out of Bangladesh, it has a lot of interest, it has a lot of eagerness. So when I was there in 2017 2018, I also taught there. So the, the people that I met are young people, you know, students and I still keep in touch with them. And they, they are readers, they are readers, and they will read not just not just for pleasure, but they're critical readers, and they're always seeking more, more more. And so they're encouraged to see, to Bangladeshi authors, of course, they're the their authors in the country who are writing who have been writing in Bangla for decades. So that so they have their own space and their own readerships. Then there are the author's writing in English.
46:43
From the publishing perspective, there's still a long way to go.
46:48
And, to your point about, about India, being there, I feel really hopeful because this may sound hokey or dreamy, or, or what have you. But we're really all the same. Perhaps that's the post colonial wheelhouse in my head. That's what I teach also, post colonial literature and studies. And so one of the things I bring up with students is the idea, for example of borders.
47:20
I think, you know, to this day, those borders were drawn by Radcliffe, right, this Englishman who had never been to the subcontinent, goes there for six weeks, actually brings to fruition the mess that Mountbatten hands him. And here we are. And then that leads to 71, and so forth. So the welcome and the reception that I've received from now, two novels,
47:46
through the through the Indian publishing market, has just given me hope, because on a really fundamental level,
47:56
the that's the space I'm writing for. And yes, um, you know, my character, my settings, their their bandwidth issues, their talk, I think all these have a certain kind, perhaps up to an extent. But really, everybody that I've heard from that I've read my first book that I've read, this has spanned that massive landmass that we have that we call the Indian subcontinent, that's all of ours. And the readers that read from there read it in ways that when I hear the responses, I go, Oh, you got the book, not because it's complimentary. Even the criticisms are valid.
48:37
But you get it in a way that I don't think
48:43
our books are going to be gotten.
48:46
At least not in the US, I think us us agents and publishers just don't have the mechanics, no matter how intelligent no matter how deep readers, they may be, their intentions in the right places. There's going to be something lost and everything that I've heard all the kinds of feedback that I've gotten.
49:07
I was like, I'm not, I know, you're not going to respond to my emails, and we're not going to have this back and forth. But
49:15
I could try to tell you what you're missing. And I think part of that solution is that tension between, okay, they see some commercial aspect of the novel, they see, you know, a name a certain kind of name, you know, that is that tells them that, oh, this name should be writing this. And so, if that doesn't match up,
49:39
they'll say, Okay, well, so then you're going to write about, how are they How are US readers, which is also very, very, very thinly veiled code speak, because the readership is mostly white.
49:55
And the readership is mostly middle class, middle to upper class. So
50:00
Imagine taking all of that into account.
50:03
And then trying to say, okay, look, I'm just a writer. And I just write the stories that I that I find compelling. The hope again, that I find that also other Bangladeshi writers because Kunichika, who I think represents all of the subcontinent is he is terrific. He is so many incredible authors
50:23
that I could just meet his authors and read their work for as long as I'm, I'm reading and writing and it wouldn't be enough. So I think he's also been welcoming and eager to find more Bangladeshi voices, if I'd known was recently her. Sure Joe's clan was another one. Publication wise Bangladesh is has has a vibrant local publishing
50:47
space.
50:49
But it's nowhere near, you know, an international platform of the kind that India is doing so, so I'm very hopeful and I'm very encouraged. And I every editor I've worked with, just has made my work better. Yeah. And I think for me, you know, growing up, one Bangladeshi writer that I had been a huge fan of was Taslima Nasreen reader, she is usually famous, like reading her work, and I sort of, you know, looked up as the I looked up to her as this feminist and took very bold voice in a time, like in the 90s. When, you know, we still were like, girls are told, okay, don't well, you know, don't I mean, girls are still told that part. Yeah. And more recently, I think, also Shabari, Zora Ahmed, who also wrote an episode for Quantico. So yes, I do think that a lot of Bangladeshi was is sort of coming up now. But we do need to see a lot more. You mentioned shorebreak, she is a friend. And she had the same she and I have commiserated many, many times over our same problems with being writers living here, and trying to get our foot in the door. And she had the same thing with her novel dust under her feet. You know, it got really well received in the subcontinent. But over here, she goes, I don't I've lived here all my life, I don't know what to I don't know how to speak to this, these elements in the in the industry that we have the gatekeepers that we have to get past, if somebody is just not going to get something on a very basic level. It could be with a friend, you know, we might be having an argument and we might say to each other, I love you, but you're just not getting this. And I don't know in what language to speak to this speak about this to you anymore. So although she does have a collection of stories, that's being published by an independent press here, it's upcoming. Yeah, it's upcoming, I don't know when. Because with publication, you know, a date might be set, but then it might be moved a couple of months and so forth. But it is happening. And they're in the final stages of putting it together. And another Bangladeshi voice that I that I want to bring your attention to is Nadia, Kabir, BB. She's a UK, Bangladeshi. And she has a collection called Truth or Dare, which was published, in fact, in Bangladesh, and it just got its UK publication, and our book launch was last week. So we're here
53:21
in a very small, tight number, at least, those of us that are away from the country, the challenges, we faced the same challenges, I think I can only hope that
53:34
these these things change. So often the trends or whatever it is everything that I kind of abhor, but have to put up with because this is the world we live in. So however, Bangladesh becomes a trend. My cynicism says it's going to be negative, but I can I can kind of mix it up with some positivity and see what happens. As long as it's being spoken about, I think and you know, what you said about getting the book, you know, in your book, there's so many elements that as a South Asian, you just get right.
54:07
The class differences, the whole family angle.
54:12
You know, even Assad sort of like having a crush on his cousin, which, which could be misconstrued in a different cultural context, if you take it out of the context of, you know, the society you're talking about. So there's so many things that are just that, you know, we just understand the family dynamics. And as you said, we're all the same. So I think I really resonated with what you said about you know, that the books are being read across the subcontinent, by people who get them and I think there is that shared understanding and culture that all of us have, and that bring us together. So that definitely does come across in the book. Yeah. And I really liked how you've sort of shown us a very different side to people who have, let's say, migrated to the US, right? So there's a line from the book that really made me gasp and I remember sending this
55:00
to tarot, because I was like, oh my god, like imagine being so bold and writing someone's thought out, right? So the line goes like what gets me is that Bangladeshis over there think they are white. You should hear them talk about the blacks and the Mexican sometimes they sound worse and worse racists. So is this something that you have encountered yourself? Or did you make it up for the book? I really hope you have made it up. I think I think I have encountered this like as well. All South Asians. Yeah, like all South Asians have this like weird and like, anti, not all but lots of like, especially older generation. They have like this, like sort of like racism against you know, the colorism and all of that
55:41
exists commenting across, you know, like all cultures. Yeah, I wish I had made it up just for fictional value. But that, as Tara said, it's very prevalent. And it's easy to find, also, as Tara just said, In the older the previous generations, so yeah, I would pick up you know, conversations
56:05
at, you know, dinners, whatever functions, and I'm listening to, you know, people my parents age talk talking as though now I think about it. That makes me go
56:18
I'm sorry, who exactly? Who and What do you think you are? So it really is about their, you know, to hear to hear a Bangladeshi immigrant talk about illegal Mexicans.
56:32
It just makes you go. Okay, there is so much happening here. I don't know where to find an entrance. Oh, these people don't know, these people do this. And these people do that I go.
56:47
I don't know where to I don't know what to think. But they are clearly
56:53
taking and appropriating language.
56:56
From a space that is not them. But they have somehow made themselves adjacent to it through wealth through class, and they think they're better. They think that, you know, oh, yes, this is, this is how I how I kind of separate myself from the elements of America that I disagree with, or don't like, or are part of my insecurities. And
57:27
this is what, you know, this, this is what I can identify with. So, yeah, it's it's taken straight from a composite of things I've heard over the years.
57:39
And that has that left me going, you know, just on a basic level, let's say about immigration, you know, there's so much talk, especially in the previous generation.
57:50
And I go, you know, the whole reason, the whole reason in the 60s and 70s, that there was this massive influx of South Asian migrants to this country was because of the civil rights movement, the civil rights movement in this country. And then that opened up immigration because immigration laws hadn't changed. They'd been stopped in 1929.
58:14
And then reopened and re
58:18
rewritten in 6465.
58:22
So there's that and then you mentioned the colorism. Of the colorism but especially I was telling Tara that this scene where you've mentioned that used to not not use sorry, Nisar, the protagonist used to not was not sort of allowed to go on the terrace in the afternoon because he would turn dark and and that, you know, sort of brought back this memory where I had overheard someone over here, saying, Oh, how did Priyanka Chopra make it in the US? Isn't she dark? And when I heard that, I was like, Oh, my God, like this was really outdated thoughts. I mean, they just it really infuriates me what? Yeah, and, and about drinking tea and drinking milk. It's just it's so insidious, the ways in which these things work. And what's interesting is that here among my students that are not South Asian, but our students of color, whether they're Latin x, or Latin, a African American, when I mentioned these things, because I like bringing in anecdotes. And in my teaching, they have similar experiences. And, you know, I've had students, African American students go, oh, yeah, you know, when my soul and soul cousin was born, they were checking parts of this baby that's like two hours old, they were checking her, you know, ears and behind her ears and the back of her hand to see where the lighter parts of her skin are, and where the darker parts and then determining, oh, she's going to go this way and be darker, or she's going to be light skinned. It exists across cultures in so many ways, but the specifics of it
1:00:00
And hours are
1:00:04
an hour out one side of my mouth, I'm laughing, because it sounds so ridiculous coming from people of color, and coming from immigrants who have come through the same systems.
1:00:15
And I've had certain privileges, but they think they're different. And also infuriating, because out of my other side, I want to say, why don't you just take a take a moment, take a moment and look back how you ended up where you ended up? Who you are, maybe take a look at the mirror, again, nothing's really changed, you still look the same, you are the same.
1:00:37
Whatever you've done to change that.
1:00:42
That's your business. I have cousins that are like that. I have cousins that are like that, that were that lived their first 20 years of life and taka, but now, they don't they won't speak to I don't speak to them anymore. But they don't speak in Bangla.
1:00:56
So, you know, what do I do with that, but use it somehow as a writer?
1:01:03
Not only because I want to poke fun at it, but because it's true.
1:01:08
You know, it is taken straight from? It's like journalism, I've taken it. I'm just putting it into paper. Yeah, paper, what is what is happening out there and fictionalizing it, I'm not reporting it. But I'm creating a world in which I'm, I'm entering it. Yeah, they see the truth is stranger than fiction. And what I liked about the book, you know, we spoke about, you know, that how people sort of like, of certain cultures will get it right. But I also what I also really like about the fact that so many more Bangladeshi authors, you know, we are reading Pakistani authors, we just interviewed somebody from Kerala, Tamil Nadu in the northeast, you know, and while we're all the same, also so unique and different. And that's what I really love about, you know, the subcontinent. And I really liked that about your book, because while I got it, you know, as somebody from a South Asian heritage, I also learned something completely new, you know, because I've always wanted to travel to other South Asian countries, because of the same same but different angle. That's why I love traveling within India as well, because there's so many things that unite us. And there's only things that are new and specific to you know, certain region, certain kinds of people, language, all of that. And I think your book has also brought out that flavor really well.
1:02:32
So yeah, so I love sort of, you know, the meaning of the universal and the specific in this context.
1:02:40
Yeah, same. And for me, I think what the drawing aspect was that like I said, you know, being a migrant, I had access to a load of this whole Bangladeshi migrant population. And then I was really eager to read about this whole other side that I got to see because from what I had seen, there was a big huge blue collar worker population, and this is a very different white collar population. But anyway, I think we can go on and on about, you know, what we loved about the book, but here we are, and we have arrived at the fun quiz section of the podcast. So I'll be giving you some options that you will have to pick. You'd have to pick one
1:03:17
what person are you at a party? A a party pooper be the one who's always passed out see the dancer
1:03:27
I have been all three
1:03:30
in some way form or shape at this point.
1:03:35
I think I would be
1:03:38
impatient to go home. Okay, great. Oh, that will also depend on the party. If I was at Ghazi party I would be in a corner like I'm here because I'm my friends designated driver. Please leave me alone.
1:03:52
Okay, all right. One way to preserve ancestral wealth. A mutual funds be stocks see property.
1:04:01
Who property would be my way of going because I wish the two houses that I grew up with on my both my parents by my grandparents sides. If I could have those houses, just those two, I'd be more than happy and taka, but alas, so property I think is precious. Okay. One hookah flavor that you like a blueberry B grape C watermelon. I think I've smoked.
1:04:32
Both watermelon and blueberry. But because I go toward blueberry. I'll go with you said blueberry was one of the options. Yes, yes. Yes, that's it. Okay. One way to gossip without being noticed in public. A whispering be not making eye contact. See through gestures.
1:04:52
Oh, I like gestures. I think gestures are powerful. And with the right person, you can communicate and then
1:05:00
entire story. Yep. Okay, one thriving sphere of modern day data. A RT B music see literature?
1:05:10
Oh my goodness.
1:05:13
There is a lot happening in art. I will say this. I see both in my circles and from from news that I see if exhibitions and new artists. I think art art is making a really good book making really good progress. Yep.
1:05:31
Okay, one favorite cuisine and AKA a Chinese be Thai see Turkish? Oh, I went to the Turkish place quite a bit. Turkish bazaar found that mistaking the name. It's walking distance from us. So that ended up becoming a favorite. Yes.
1:05:51
Yeah. So now we're the last section of this interview. Sadly, it's the rapid fire round. So you have to answer in one line or one word. Okay, so as that one Bangladeshi dish that you love,
1:06:05
dog.
1:06:08
Okay. One thing that you missed the most about home when you are in the US
1:06:15
the food?
1:06:17
Who is your favorite character from your book? Jasmine.
1:06:22
Okay, one thing that you miss most about the US when you are in
1:06:27
ease of ease of getting around the way I'm used to getting around
1:06:32
one character that you could relate to the least from your book.
1:06:39
Ghazi
1:06:41
okay. The most common phrase used in elite circles in Dhaka? Something like stay stay. Why do you? Where are you going? You have no you know where to go? Stay, stay Have some more. You can never leave a party. And yeah, I just have to sneak out anyway. One character from your book that you wish you knew in real life?
1:07:06
It would also be Jasmine because I think she is a terrific friend.
1:07:10
Yes. Okay, what's next? As I said at the beginning that I had this huge ambitious project that I put that I have a couple of drafts of that also took taka, as its at its center.
1:07:30
And so it was basically a fictional account of this family. Who, who coexists with the development of taka from the 17th century, to modern times. So after, after I've let that a couple of drafts, you know, have their process. I kind of extracted what I really am at the moment, intrigued by is 1857, the supplier uprising, but the part of it that happened in taka, and so so that's the work in progress.
1:08:10
It is very, very new and very raw.
1:08:14
So hopefully, hopefully it'll see some kind of shape. And eventually if Ken likes it, you know, it'll see the light of day but but it's I'm having a good time just working on it at my own slow pace. That sounds really interesting. I think it goes down to basically it's like a time travel to Taco Tara. So yeah, we can't wait to read it. Yeah, right. Yes, and best of luck. And it was much this was one of the most interesting conversations we've had. I mean, we speak to so many different kinds of authors, and we got to know so much more about Bangladesh and things. Thank you for writing this book and speaking to us. It was a pleasure. Thank you for reaching out. It's been a privilege. Thank you so much. Thank you.
1:08:55
So here we are, where the end of yet another journey into the many worlds of Books and Beyond with bound. I'm Tara Knievel. I'm Michelle D'costa. And this podcast is created by bound a company that helps you grow through stories. Find us at sound India or all social media platforms. So tune in every Wednesday if you live, eat and breathe books and join us as we discover more revolutionary books and peek into the lives and minds of some truly brilliant authors from India and South Asia. And don't forget to keep your love for stories alive for books and beyond.