5.34 Hussain Zaidi: Capturing Criminals With India’s Biggest Crime Writer

What does it take for a national hero to be deemed a deadly criminal?

Join your host Michelle, as she dives into conversation with Hussain Zaidi, author of “R.A.W. Hitman: The Real Story of Agent Lima”, as he talks about covering the story of Lucky Bisht, who was convicted for the alleged murder of two notorious criminals. In his book, he uncovers how a 16-year-old ended up being “a fantabulous killing machine”.
 
In this episode, you’ll hear how Hussain Zaidi accidentally hurtled headfirst into crime journalism and how he escaped getting shot in Iraq by bonding over Bollywood and Amitabh Bachchan.
Tune in to hear more stories about his growth as a crime journalist, how he convinced Lucky Bisht to tell his story, and the trouble he faced getting it published.

Authors  mentioned in this episode:
Vikram Chandra
Neeraj Kumar

Books and series mentioned in this episode:
Dongri to Dubai- Hussain Zaidi
The Lincoln Lawyer (Series)
Bambai Meri Jaan- Dir. Shujaat Saudagar

Produced by Aishwarya Javalgekar
Sound edit by Kshitij Jadhav

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

00:05

Welcome to Books and Beyond with bound. I'm Tara canderel. I'm Michelle D'costa. And in this podcast, we uncover the stories behind some of the best written books of our time and find out how these books reflect our lives and our society today. So tune in every Wednesday to enter a whole new world with a new author, and a new idea. Yes, and after three years and 2 million listens, we are back with our factories and five with hard hitting questions and life changing books. So let's dive in.

00:42

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to books in beyond this week, I'm going to find out more about the seedy underbelly of India. And there seems to be a lot to uncover in this because our guest today has written 14 books on this topic. He has captured some of the world's biggest criminals on paper with multiple bestsellers like donate to the buy mafia queens of Mumbai and Black Friday. My name is Abu Salim, Mumbai Avengers so many more. Mr. Hussein's Eddie is India's biggest crime writer. So today, I'm gonna unpack his latest book, raw hitman, the real story of agent Lima. And I have to say, so I could not put this book down because it's full of goons, politicians, cops, bullets, corruption, and so much more. It's one of the most riveting books that I've read recently. And I kept wondering, who is the man who killed the most, you know, two most notorious criminals, right? Or is it lucky beached? Or is it agentless? Are they both the same person? And what is the real story? So let's find out from Mr. Persons Eddie himself. Welcome. So thank you very much. Okay, so So because you know, you're one of the most requested guests on this podcast, we have actually crowd sourced fan questions. So your are the top questions that came up, you know, from all many people who go to us on email, who wrote to us on Instagram, all that. So the very first question, which we all want to know, is that, you know, being an investigative investigative journalist, you know, it has its pros and cons, and I'm sure it has all its, you know, dangers involved. So we read that you were actually once kidnapped in Iraq. Please tell us about it is this myth, or is this fact

02:21

it's one of the craziest stories that you know,

02:25

narrated, and despite

02:27

20 years have gone by.

02:31

But I've still not got older, I have not forgotten it. I still like remember all those details very vividly like that. At first. What has happened was in midday, I was doing this crime reporting, and I have been successful reporter in midday, like getting most of the time where you are, I mean, I was writing what corrupt politicians, I was writing about delinquent cops. I was writing about Mafia underworld. So a series of agents stories. So my actor, record player was very happy. And he wanted to offer me a junket. So

03:06

can I send you to some plays as a, you know, encouragement, or as a reward for doing good work consistently. So in those days, journalists were going to Singapore, or Souza land, or these kinds of fancy distributions. I think the man or the stupid journalist in me, was not very enamored by these distributions, I thought I would rather go to a warzone. So I asked, aka K, can you send to Iraq, he just looked at me with his eyes wide as if you've seen the biggest fool on this earth, to suggest this kind of place. Because Iraq was like, Saddam was just deposed, and the country was still like, going through the struggles of becoming normal. And this stupid journalist is now wanting to go to the war zone. So I told him, aka I've seen like so much of Mafia organized crime, but I've never seen a war torn country. Can you not allow me to go there? And

04:04

so he kind of very reluctantly and under intense request, and repeated requests said that if I can.

04:11

So then he sent me to Iraq, now in Iraq when I went there, so because my specialization was crime journalism, I was trying to look for those kinds of intriguing stories, my readers will like So even from Iraq, I don't need to pay you for three days in a row. I kind of survived a bomb blast in Najaf. And then which was meant for some cleric there between because that is the infighting between two groups. And then I went and reported about bodyguard of Saddam who say that Saddam had 27 palaces he had so many lookalikes and he was so brutal and so violent, and he was like killing so many people are such a despotic tyrant. And then I interviewed his bodyguard was on the running hiding from the forces. Also I in those days because we realized that Bobby Masood, and

05:00

Ranjan Bumi, she was so fresh. So I came across a Gurdwara right in the middle of the railway tracks of you know, Baghdad. And I thought that in my country, they are fighting for one structure, who is going to have that while in Iraq. non Muslim Sikh, Gurdwara is a non Muslim structure right there. And this country is of demolishing it has ensured that the rivet racks just go across it. And this place remains there. So, it was a good water it was built by six soldiers in edit every second world war. So I kind of did all those stories

05:35

in three, four days in a row. But there came a time that I started feeling the famine of stories, we had no local contacts in Iraq, there was nobody to help me. So I started looking for some local contact is it who is the Chief of thieves here who is the big guy because we all have heard what people have done. So

05:54

there's a story like I've grown up on the tip of that story. I know if you have like career pages act as a hero in his Hollywood movie, and it was also like other story to meet. And so I thought, this was the legendary thing I was going with this Tifa badass, I should look for something.

06:10

I was not getting anywhere. And one finding, suddenly, I feel when I was standing in that soup, soup is a marketplace. So I'm standing in the place. I feel a very hard cold thing on my ribs. And somebody will go for it says, sit in the car.

06:28

Look at it. And then I feel the gun. And the man looked, you know, very nervous and very angry. If at all I'm going to resist, I'm going to get shot dead right there. And then I was you know, forcibly taken to a place and you know, made to plonk on a chair while my blindfold was removed. But you look around you see a lot of garments. How do you I mean, I took pride in my being a very brave guy. I mean that I was a person who was having enough courage to face his world. But seeing so many guns pointed at you, when it's not even a film shooting is really like getting life out.

07:03

I somehow try to get my courage together. And I waited

07:08

for the chief to come with a chair in front of me was empty. And suddenly a man walks in. And I see his long hand. And he has no starch and no beard. You know, until then, in Iraq when I was meeting all these people, I realized that they have beard they have started they have like they have too much of foliage on their face. This clean shaven man with long hair to the shoulder was quite a surprise back at home. While I kind of kept quiet until he asked a question. Are you Pakistani.

07:37

So you know.

07:40

Arabic does not offer they don't have the pleasure of job they have to make do with other alphabets to pronounce words. So is it are you Bucky Sonny? I said no, I'm not Pakistani, I'm Hindi.

07:53

So Pakistani I heard is not having very good reputation Iraq. I don't know why whatever the reason is, but Indians apparently was held in high esteem in India. They, you know, until then I knew that they were Bollywood freaks. And, you know, when the guy was taking a car, one of our trips, I heard a mythological with the disco dancer song, Jimmy Jimmy Archer Agia. In 2003. I'm hearing a song which is like played in India 20s. Also, I realized that they are big fans of Bollywood. So I said, I'm Hindi. And you will not believe the moment I said I'm Hindi. Suddenly his whole demeanor changed the whole stone as the gruffness changed. Is all your Hindi said, Yeah. And then suddenly the next question was,

08:38

do you know Ameesha Buchan. Amisha. Booker, now, you know, this governor piano was just a recent hit in 2003. And we have seen Michelle Putin, you know, making an entry becoming a big hero. And at that time, so I thought he's mispronouncing a name. I said, No, no, it's not Amisha pecan, it's Ameesha Patel. I know what you're predicting. He said, he got very angry. How come I don't know your Hindi you don't know your book. And I said, I really don't know Mr.

09:06

Bachchan and also he himself said, he went and he showed me a photograph from movie Shakti. The moment is solid photograph, I invite this man that he is looking so online without blockchain with clean shaven face and long hair and bloodshed. So this is like when is imitating Amitabh Bachchan rather. And I immediately understood this without Bucha name. He was saying, Misha,

09:29

you know that the fear of death, the nervousness that I'm going to be killed here and throw in some desert, and my wife will become bitter. He won't even know it where I've read where I've been dumbed, sullen. This thing kind of made me happy. I saw a known face among so many good men. And I said, Oh, I know him. Like the joy, the joy of all I know, I know him that kind of thing. And he misunderstood my excitement. He thought that I'm saying that he's my big friend. So it's Oh, you're premonition? Booker's fer ya.

10:00

Amitabh Bachchan, I tried to also eat me tall, but like he was trying to pronounce his name. So then he became friends when he realized he thought it I'm top buttons friend. And he just said he ordered a good food for me, I was really hungry. And I will, it will have been exposed to that emotion. When they're nervous when they're close to death. They eat lots of food, I kind of attacked food and I had food to the heart continuous capital just looking at me, and must be wondering if India is like one of those countries which has so many hungry people. So we kind of were chatting and he was discussing and then he said, Okay, see, I was really upset with you before you came here. We thought he was a Pakistani spy who's trying to do something on us. But now since you're from India, and you know, Amitabh Bachchan very well, you have to give me a letter in writing that whenever I come to India, you introduce me to him? I said, Sure. I will. So I kind of signed all that thing that he has given me. And then he, you know, drove me back to my hotel and that kind of

10:57

happy. So once I met Mr. Bachchan in one of the gatherings I told him, Sir, I owe you my life. Thank you very much for saving my life. He said was when I sat in Baghdad to save my life. He said, I've never been to Iraq. I said, Sir, up Anamika here, I just took your name in my life was.

11:16

So well, then he tweeted about this story. And wow, that is that is really unbelievable. So I mean, it's literally like a scene out of a movie. Like who would have imagined right, I can't even imagine what you must have been through. So me, you know, I actually grew up in the Gulf. So I do understand, you know, when you mentioned the souk is a marketplace, and that they cannot pronounce p right. So you know, it's beb C, and it's we've always had a laugh about these things. So I'm very familiar with all these nuances, but definitely, I had no clue about how scary can you know, things can get, but I'm so happy that Amitabh Bachchan came to the rescue for you. And a lot of our listeners were very curious that you know, is it because there are a lot of rumors that are spread around they wanted to know. So this is a very fascinating tale. So and you know, apart from this, you are the twin or one of India's most prolific writers, you know, so many books, you've written like 14 books, and I'm very sure there are more in the pipeline. So what I want to know is what is the secret to productivity? How do you even manage your time? That's a big problem, actually.

12:15

When I was a journalist, I, you know, Indian Express, there were no client wasn't I joined I was the only one it was much later than duty day and others joined and they started reporting crime. We all became a team later on. But in the beginning of 1995, towards the end of that day, I was the only one was reporting crime at that time. And

12:37

there was a lot of pressure for me to do stories. I was the only one was covering Mumbai, Navi Mumbai, Thani and Ragan. So every day, we were producing a lot of stories. Now, sometimes it becomes a habit for you to write so much. Sometimes, unless you don't write and don't cover so much. You don't feel satisfied somewhere. So it's like a jogger, who will not go jogging for five kilometres, he will you know, feel down it will depress Oh, today have not gone jogging for five. So for others, it might look like a very strenuous task that oh, five COVID has gone walk because they go, but for joggers, like it's fun anytime you can just, you know, get his shoe and start running. So, because I've been writing so much since don't those days, and I'll tell you, that journalist as a breed are very lazy people. I mean, there are people who sometimes I just once in a month, or if they're very hard working people, maybe once a week at max twice a week. In my case, my boss size ratio, Swami made me work so much that I was like, I rose to the challenge. He was a nice guy, he never humiliated or embarrassed me. But he kind of always pushed me in a very positive way. So I was trying to score one violence story every day, which was kind of rare thing those days. So I was newly married in 1995, I had to get home, I was living in honey, and my office at Express table was in the room and point. So when people are leaving home, I mean, leaving office at 1130 when the pages are getting made at 1130. I'll be calling joint commission of crime, crime saying sir, Hello, can you give me a pay for tomorrow? He said all Hussein, I just shared one good story with you today. And it's 1130. I want to sleep as it has been, I want to start working with tomorrow's story. So this was an example of trying to give you get 1130. So going home to a newly wedded wife, I was working and I was trying to get most of it. So the next day, this

14:30

kind of thing got embedded into my system in such a way that until today, until today, if I don't write that much until I don't work that much. I don't produce some content in that time. I will not get a runner's high or I'm not getting endorphins in my system. Wow, really and I could totally relate to the commute. So because our you know, round office is in Nariman Point, and I live in Berkeley so it takes me four hours to travel and I you know, try to make the most of it. I read, I write whatever I can do, and it's really cool.

15:00

commendable. I mean, your work ethic as a journalist, I think it's what seeps into your writing as well. So that's really, really inspiring.

15:07

So apart from this, you know, we know that you profiled some of the biggest mafia leaders in history, right? So I want to know who is been the most fascinating personality that you have met in real life? And why the Honestly speaking, I don't have much respect for any of them.

15:24

I for me, they're just subjects they are, they are just, I mean, they're just people of whom I write about, because I was reported as a journalist. So to say that I was fascinated by them will be giving them a lot of respect. I can say, What's the weirdest or I would say that who was despicable? I mean, I can say those things. But fascination is a positive term. I would say that criminals fascinate me, I despise them to from the core of my heart, so all those people who perpetrate violence and you know, kill human beings. They are very bad people, abominable, obnoxious people. So I can maybe tell you a couple of stories of obnoxious people. There was this guy Feroz Kokanee

16:09

rose company, his name was Feroz or guru, he became a killer at age 16.

16:16

Now, you know, we all have been through this life. This challenges were at 16. A youngster is trying to be in college, trying to study hard trying to make a mark for himself in academic world. Those who are good for the things they will go and chase guns and you know, they've tried to be you know, standing on the road and somewhere trying to be some kind of room you're getting those kinds of things they will do. This van Feroz was neither of that he was no more inclined. Instead, he didn't kind of study nor looking after girls. At age 16. He started working as a watchman in some place. And because of some very minor TIFF, he ended up killing one person to become a killer at age 16. And from there on, he killed several people. So before that, you know, he had killed two more 30 workers and he's the man who started the second round of riots in Mumbai in January 1993. So you know, in December after a first round of riots, there was a lull in the communal riots in Mumbai. But this one, kind of because he was living in Dominica, he went out and killed two Matauri workers He slit the throats. And when the next day morning to Masada workers did what is found, there was a second round of writing between Muslims and Sikhs, and at that time, so it was Feroz conclu started this. So I was going back to this profile that after killing this man, he got hired by Tricia king and he ended up killing 16 more people. So by the time he was 19 year old he had killed 17 people and like for him like killing was no big deal. My point is that I found it very weird for a man to be this, you know, totally screwed up in head.

18:01

Totally killed kill because he started liking him very much. He started giving him very tough job for example, Emily rom das Naik, who was a BJP leader, Feroz gopnik killed him in Bandra. So that was one of the most sensational high profile killing intros COVID killed. This was a man who also managed to when he was in jail, he was produced in Port brought to JJ hospital for some medical checkup. He escaped from there and he wanted to evade East Pakistan he wanted to replace Jodorowsky he wanted to become a Don from Pakistan but then he was killed were killed they said that you can't you know you're good at a foot soldier don't try to become the leader. So he was killed by traditionalism Karachi market. So at a very young age, I think got killed when he was six. So that is one of the weirdest character that I found in my

18:52

written Dirty Dozen. So during the book, which I have provided 12 Very violent kind of killers. So Feroz, Cockneys among one of those. Oh, yeah, wow. Okay, because I was just gonna ask you so because out of all the books that you've written, which was the most challenging, was it this I mean, I because I can only imagine how disturbed anyone could be, you know, the frame the mindset for actually profiling the most notorious criminals. So was that the most challenging or was it any of them? I don't know whether this is the right analogy, but for me that I related for surgeons, initially it is difficult for them to you know, put a scalpel cut someone body see so much a blurred and you know, handle the organs, vital organs with people.

19:36

But after a point, it becomes such a routine thing for them that they have a Felicity in handling these things doing surgeries like routine thing for them. So, initially for me too challenging, but after a point I thought that I detach myself I kind of disassociate myself from whatever was happening. And I have I was writing about them so it doesn't do anything to be said.

20:00

technologically when I write about them,

20:02

but to answer your question, I would say that my most challenging book was dominated by that was the book that took longest, it took seven years for me to write. And finally, I learned that if I not stop writing and conclude here, this will keep on going, because I was still alive at that time. And there were a lot of things that were still happening. Mafia was on the front pages. So I thought I have to stop here. I have to just now finish the book and you know, submit the manuscript, and be done with it. But whatever you see, it took seven years of research hard work, while I was doing the daily reporting as well. Wow. Yeah, that is a lot. Yeah, I think seven years is definitely a lot and just looking at your career, you know, you've written so many books, I can imagine how impatient, frustrated you would have got it. And so yeah, so So you know, I want to know more about your process, because you are, you know, an investigative crime reporter. And, you know, on this podcast, we've also spoken to others. You know, most recently, we've spoken to Sheena trau, who cover who's written the book, male male, the story would be super tanker. And you know, there are basically so many crime reporters, right. So we want to know, you know, what makes you stand out? What makes you sort of get an edge over the others in your career in general? What is it that you think that you have brought to the table that other crime investigators have not? See, I won't try to denigrate the work of my fellow journalists, they all are excellent and fabulous professionals. I think in my case, what happened was that I got the first mover advantage, I just got your lucky in 1995. I said that induces immune Express, I started off with x plus. And Julius joined in tech school in 1996. So at that time,

21:44

as if they were not very many people were doing the credible crime reporting. See, I tend to watch in crime journalism, it is very easy to speculate. It's very easy to kite flying. It's very easy to like write anything. Because according to one of the editors, in Express DN, Murthy, you write any crap, what Underworld and they will not send a press release or a legal notice to you claiming, you know, give you a rejoinder that your story is false. So there are a lot of people who are doing that. I mean, I can, I can tell you that such speculation has been rife at that time, that they were getting away with it now. And those days, I was not trained as a crime journalist. My boss, when he hired me, I was, I mean, I was harboring the mission of becoming a good education reporter. Because you know, all journalists, when they're naive, they think that they will change the world. They'll bring the information in this world, they will do this, they will do that. So when I was I walked into his office, I thought, I'll become an education reporter. There are so many levels in the society, the education, I want to change the world, or I will cover civic b2b, corporate and BMC. But there are so many good Tala scams happening. And if not, then maybe politics. Crime was never on my radar. But Mr. Swamy, he said, we have only one, you know, slot wreckage, and that is for crime Johnson, you have got to be a crime journalist.

23:04

So, because I was so much in love with Indian Express, I joined that paper and I have him you know, immediately like Metro tsunami, so I said, Yes, okay.

23:14

I had to be different from those, that breed of crime journey. So I started, you know, going to the courts, talking to the lawyer, getting the version from the families going and getting the, you know, welfare of the cops. So I stayed, we walked to the joint Commissioner crime. In those it was our Sharma. And I used to ask him, and he was like, very kindly to respond, reply or refuse and deny or not come in. So what was happening in my stories, it was not speculation of kite flying, or just, you know, conjecture. It was backed by some solid verification. So there was some documents or there was some version, there are some quotes from people. So that's how I think that people kind of started reading those stories. And they thought that this man is more trustworthy than others. And it happened 95 And then jyotirmoy day came, the god my was senior to me 15 years, God was 50 years older to me, but he had intense hunger to learn. So I made him a crime journalist. So now what happened is whenever they say that, if you want to know, a teacher, his caliber look at his student. So I always say if you guys think that God was a big journalist than I was teacher, that's what I kind of always claim it. Lovely story. So yeah, I think that's what I think it happened to you by accident. But then you sort of you know, there's your passion for these stories and your passion for doing thorough research is what comes across. It doesn't matter what the subject is. So we have two more questions in this crowdsource section. So one is saying, you know, you're a reporter, you tell the truth, right. And we sometimes we know that when there are facts, when there are no stats, it tends to get dry, but your books are just the opposite of that, right? They're entertaining. There's so much happening. It's like watching a movie, you know, so I wanted also to make it accessible to

25:00

make it entertaining. Is it okay for a writer to embellish the facts? Or do you still stay true to the truth? And sort of just write it in a way which makes it No, I do objection to the statement, embellishing the facts. Yes, you can embellish your track. I would say that facts are always interesting. They are like, they are always riveting you you don't have to embellish the party. Can you decorate the moon? Can you can you make Sun more shining, you can't do that they are like, as beautiful as they are. Either all its glory and aura about this.

25:34

The writing style, I would say, in my, in my young days, my father used to tell me stories. And when he used to tell me stories, it was not just ordinary stories, that okay, the king came and he conquered. And he was adding lots of effects to it, he was adding sound effects. And the king came and there was a fighting gang gang gang. And then suddenly the whole door opened down with all the side effects. So I was like, fascinated, and I was imagining when things were he was describing, it was not just, you know, a visual pleasure. But for me, it was like also audio pleasure, the everything I was like enjoying the whole thing. So I kind of I think that I carried that thing in my youth when I was writing stories. Secondly, you know, Vikram Chandra, the famous Wickham

26:23

Yes, he was my teacher in storytelling I had in my early days of writing, and I was not a struggle, I used to ask Vikram to help me out about writing. So he's the man who made me an author, he's the man who, you know, pushed me to write blackFriday. So, a man is the sum total of his teachers actually always see. So, Mr. Vikram has Chandra has contributed a lot to my growth as a writing writer. He told me when I was in my initial data was trying to be very, like, very matter of fact, it was trying to be very prosaic, here's the reason you're doing the wrong thing. Don't try to, you know, tell the story, try to show the story. So try to write it because the words are powerful words, you can be descriptive, you can be graphic while you're writing. And you don't have to use a prosaic language for that, you just have to ensure that imagine as if you're in a room, where there, there is no one but you and you want to describe this someone on the phone, that you this the room and this is what I'm seeing. So through your eyes, the viewers eye will see that room. So do that you read this, and that's how I started paying more attention. So what I would say is that I was not embellishing the facts, but I became more graphic. So I started those miniscule details which were otherwise neglected. I just thought I should also put them in a story include them, explain elaborate those kinds of things. So that's the thing. I mean, I and you know, for example, I'll tell you, in Black Friday, there's a scene where I've written and how Rakesh Marty and his team was searching Tiger payments houses the old full day, and they had not eaten anything at that time. Now, as a Muslim, I know that during fasting the whole day, at least towards the five o'clock, six o'clock when it's close to Iftar, they have spent 1314 hours of hunger and starvation. The hunger is very intense, the thirst is intense, and they just want some you know, to spend another couple of hours and to start eating. I just associated this feeling of fasting for on that scene with Rakesh Maria was in Tiger women's building that Muslim area and how the neighbors invited them for Iftari in the evening. So it was like my knowledge of fasting, Ramzan hunger intense Rakesh Maria, his team, so that kind of scene came across well, in fact, even on rockcrusher routine, that scene of you know, the hunger hungry people in that apartment of Dragon women, and then later on the wall, converging meeting together. So I would say I was embellishing the facts was just making it more descriptive. That's it. Oh, that's a that's a really fascinating example. So because like you said, you never know where the inspiration comes from. Right? You just you try to make the experience as authentic and as as I would say, you know, easily consumable for an audience. I really liked that. And I think your books are in a perfect example of show versus 10. This is something that a lot of you I read a poetry somewhere I'm not able to recall the exact what he said that people when they describe the beauty of a woman, they only look at eyes, they will look at hair, they will look at face. The beauty also means the earring also described the hearing of the girl that so at that point said it I said now seems going beyond this and trying to describe the whole thing. So it's not embellishing the fact is trying to have a better description and a more decent explanation. Correct? Correct. Exactly. It's the same experience, but you're giving us a whole some experience instead of just a 2d picture of it. Yes, absolutely. And what I really liked so is that you know, you've mentioned that it took practice, it took time to build that craft. I think that's something that's very, very interesting to know because you know, there's this saying no writers are born

30:00

All writers are made. And at the end of the day, it's all your hard work is your persistence that, that that shows and so last question in this section, so is that so we know that there's a lot of content coming out in OTT platforms, you know, film shows all of that, right? So so because you have such a good skill with showing, we were wondering, you know, why not aim to be a screenwriter, why have you always been so loyal to books, because you've been a writer of books for a very long time. So is that something that has crossed your mind? See screenplay, writing, first of all, is a totally different craft.

30:33

As TV writer works differently, things differently, and you know, he has to imagine things in he has to articulate things differently. Now, I mean, I can do that. But most of the time, I realized that screenplay writers kind of do a lot of mishmash, or they take the kind of liberties which normally, as a journalist, we are not like trained to take off as a nonfiction writers, we will learn to do those things, you know, they will try to blend too many characters into one, they will try to get to a place together just because they want to that seem to be very powerful, effective. So, I mean, it's their craft, but they have their own compulsion of doing all those things. But for me, as a, as a writer, I cannot, you know, convince myself to take those liberties and try to convey a scene in that manner. So I thought that I, my core competence, my strength is in writing, writing books as a journalist, and let someone else do the screen paid. So sometimes I also don't read the screenplay, I just keep dissociate and disconnect that, let them write it. And so, for example, if you see Mumbai, Mary, John, that Amazon Prime series, you will see that there are so many liberty that the people have taken, which are different from what is there in the book. So my whole point is that

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it's better to be a writer and be happy, then to be a screenplay writer, and then

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you know, your why, hmm, that's very interesting. And that that's really refreshing. So I'm really happy because I do speak to a lot of writers who say that, you know, they have one dream is to write a show for Netflix, or to just be, you know, to have a show out. While I do understand that, you know, I have always grown up, you know, really reading books and loving books. And I do hope that, you know, the books sort of stay in that format for a long time. Yes, as you said, you know, there are people who do adaptations better, so when you leave it to them to So you're finally so we are here to talk about your book, your most latest book, which is out by Simon and Schuster, you know, so I find the plot itself very interesting. Okay, so just to give our readers and listeners some context, so we find that Lakshman or lucky beached, and he was only 16 years old when he joined the Special Forces and at such a young age that you know, he already had a notable career within the Indian Army, also, and then his entire life got derailed right at the age of 23, when he was accused of killing the most notorious criminals, you know, Raju, Pankaj and Ahmed Arya in both Rocklin. And then he was shifted to Lebanon prisons in a span of five years. We can't even imagine what you know, what would have he would have gone through, but you actually chronicle that in your book. So what you've said is, you know, that from being a national hero to becoming a nationally infamous gangster is something that shocked me. So So could you please tell us what drew you to this story? And how did you approach it? The lucky thing, which was an accidental discovery, for me, I was meeting some other producers, and they were pitching some stories of intelligence operations to me, which I was not very enamored about. But I was very skeptical that how is either getting this kind of vision who's sharing? So I asked them that? How'd you get this version? They said, We know what RW guy and RW person is given this detailed information. So I would think the article guys are not so accessible to people, they will not be so open and willing to share if you know what are they talking about using empty boast, or there's a reality to this. So then I set out to meet this person. So in my next meeting, they call this guy now. I was so disappointed to meet lucky Singh Bisht. He says, the short guy, this dog short guy, and he's, I thought it was known, you know? I mean, in my mind, they were looking different. So I said, Gee, pies. This guy. I said, Okay, so I started asking lucky. Tell me about yourself, how are you a lovely guy. So then he started explaining Himself that this what he did, how he got trained. And this even went to NSG. And then you were working for RW. And I kept on listening to the story and I thought, I mean, they are dishing out the story to me, which I'm not very happy about. Why not right but lucky story. Then I told lucky. Can I write a book on you when you okay on your story? He looked at me as if I know his supply that someone thinks that is true is worth writing about.

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He said, he said why not? So then we had a proper documentation, I asked him to, you know, assign his life rights to me. And then I sat with him several times, then we sent a team to Albany to investigate that I cross checked, I spoke to a lot of people. So a lot of work has gone in that process. But

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in the course, when you finish the book, Lucky was, you know, mystified at several levels. Because all Center is a young guy. And sometimes a young guy does not have his own self discovery the way someone else an elder guy managed to go into the deepest recesses of his mind and kind of get that thing out. So for lucky to have like his own set production at that time, when he wrote the book, he said, Sorry to bother him with JV optimism, Project karate. So those kinds of things and I said that I would say that it's one of my most wonderful projects in terms of knowing a human being seeing a human being growing with a human being that kind of person. So six year old coming from a very poor family becoming a fantabulous killing machine, a commando who can survive and all the adverse conditions and then how he got treated by the agencies, other people should know that right? So actually, you know, so what kept me going throughout the book honestly, it was the suspense right? Because we want to know, is lucky which agent lever Are they both the same people and you sort of done ended a very interesting with whether a parallel chapters right so one we follow agent Lee was our journey, then we follow lucky mission. And we keep wondering, you know, are these two different people is keeping frame. So what made you pick this angle, you could have picked any angle to tell the story why this lucky wished after a prolonged trial, has managed to

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acquitted by the court at that time, the trial court is acquitted. Despite all the testimonies, people have seen it oh, we have seen him with Raju, and we have seen him here. And people have seen him here and there. But the trial court, despite all the best efforts could not convict him. However, there were strong evidences that someone like Lucky had killed him. So like, going against the court what he can say that lucky killed him in the court, it exonerated him would be bad, it will be legally wrong thing to do. At the same time, there is a very strong evidence that someone of you know similar height, similar behavior, similar facial features, or someone distantly looking like him was the person who killed. So the agency said that was urgently while working. And lucky was in June, and he kept on saying he's innocent, he has not killed him. So then it was very important. As a journalist, I've always maintained the standard that you should only report you should not judge, let the readers decide. So I thought I will mention both the stories, and I will let them decide towards the end, that who is the killer who killed. So in those days, I was watching

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I think, series Lincoln Lawyer on Netflix. And you know, till that eight episodes, I realized that the audience, we're not sure whether this is the killer, or someone who is the killer, though, everything pointed towards one person. So I thought maybe this kind of storytelling should be experimented with, and see how my readers will react. So that's all that happened. Oh, great. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting choice. Or like, I usually when I read books, I love to analyze how the story is told, because the what is the the material you have, and then how you choose to tell it is I think that makes the world of a difference. So I really love that because it really kept me guessing till the end. So so before we you know, sort of cover other aspects of the book, I just want to know, so let's say now, this is just to understand this world, and let's say there are criminals. Okay. Now, there's this agency who hires agents to, you know, sort of get rid of these criminals. Right. So then what, like, for example, is it a secret? You know, is it a secret sort of project that happens? And isn't like anybody supposed to know about it? Or, for example, what I mean is, why was somebody even convicted? I mean, why was somebody arrested in the first place? If the, if the government anyway meant to do it? You know, it's as simple as sort of understanding, you know, how does this world even work? See, it's the the way the security agencies work is a classified operation. They don't want others to know how they've operated. So they are the people living in shadows, and working in dark rooms, they will not be, you know, known to everyone. So my whole thing is that all raw operations, whether it's happening in India or Pakistan, or wherever, are secret top secret, not known to common people. In this case, I think agencies goofed up a bit. They wanted Raju per guy in avatar to be killed, but somehow

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they didn't know that is going to boomerang in such a way that one of their own will get arrested for this. So before they can move in and you know, try to protect him or try to take some kind of preventive measures.

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This thing happened and which is why lucky kept on you know,

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telling people when they come to me in jail, that get me out. I'm your guy and why I'm like facing all this trouble. So somehow there was a mistake, it happened someplace and where they were not able to predict him, while the local police who thought that there's evidence against him and he's accused, and he has done double murder they were trying to implicate in the murder. So it was a kind of tug of war between two agencies, the uniformed forces, and the hidden forces, and lucky became a victim in the middle. That is really sad. I mean, it's yeah, it's I would say the key is sort of the, like you said, you know, nobody would have he wouldn't have even imagined that someone would be interested in his story, right? It's almost like you're being a puppet among different parties. But yep. So. So another thing that I really found fascinating about this, specially this book is that, you know, you've covered the Mumbai mafia over a long time. But this was a little different, right? Because this is about the market or tracker. And you've mentioned in your acknowledgments about this journalist, Yasha, Kotak. And, and how, you know, she helped you with this investigation, she got facts. So I want to know, what was that process like? So how did she sort of get an information and what kind of information sort of help the book, after you have got all the vision, I need some photographs of the people, I wanted some documents to be collected. And I wanted, you know, some historical data about the town to be now done. Now, if I was hard pressed for time. So I, if I would have gone into that was having too much of work on my plate, and I cannot extricate myself and go there, I had to look for journalists. So some are journalists, or know someone who will talk has been my project, I have taught her when she was in this one year college, I, she and my other colleagues, they were my students. So and I just have so much love for my students that I trust them with my life. This is only a thought that has to be done in two days, three days at max and I don't know who to turn to. And secondly, HR quota was a tender, delicate, fragile girl. So I didn't know that I could send it to her the money. And I could, you know, send it to that kind of risky mission. But then I asked, lucky to watch out for her. And I kept on taking, you know, calling her day in the morning. And after I kept on thinking, uh, you have to tell me your movements. So, because it was Tuesday things she just quickly when they covered a lot of ground, she traveled a lot to photographs, got those documents, and she came back. So what we need to do is we need to verify all the facts, there's something called dude is talking to people cross checking, also seeing the document what is written there. So it was important that I have to do this, if I'm not doing it, somebody trustworthy and credible can do for me correctly. And you've also worked with other writers in the past, like Jane Porges, you know, with Martha queens and we had interviewed her so yeah, I really liked this collaborative process that you have. So, so you know, I really want to know, sir, like, when you were interviewing rocky Wayshrine was there any moment where you doubted the credibility of his story? You know, I mean, in your forward, which is written by Mr. Neeraj Kumar, we also interviewed him for his book, he said that he doubted the credibility and I want to know your view. Did you ever feel that, as a journalist, I should always be skeptical of my subjects. I cannot be blindly accepting it. But at the same time, just because I'm skeptical of something

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that good story should not be killed or ignored because my skepticism the story that I wrote for with lucky, I found was a good story. It was backed by documents. There were facts. It was reported there are people who are saying so not just luck, even others are saying this. The only

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skeptical part in that story is if he was commissioned or agent Lima was commissioned by Allah who killed those two gangsters because normally within the country, its Intelligence Bureau who does counterespionage RW work beyond the borders. It kept it was kept on seeing an agent Lima was working on the orders of RW bosses and lucky kept on saying that I'm working for the agency. So the whole thing is, you know, skeptical in this area. Only this area is grim. Whether roe commissioned that killing or whether it was you know, some other animosity why these two gangsters were killed and that was blamed on raw whether Lucky was really robbed Ross man there or there is Agent Lima was actually Ross operative who came and killed us. So only this is a gray area. But there were two cancers were killed. Luckey was put in jail. He was he served in lemon prisons. He went through his harrowing experiences with the jail inmates and those jailers and and the way he survived doing all those dangerous and risky, all these are factually documented, you know, established facts. So there was no skepticism there. Which is why I thought that someone has to raise this question I thought who will raise it and I have never been no scared of people questioning the facts of my story. That's

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Let them cushion let them. So, for example, in WV, when I wrote that Manya story was today was responsible conspiring to kill Saville kaska, Doddridge, elder, whether there was one very controversial and counter specialist who came out and he wrote that Manya story was never in service killing and I would have written is not correct and blah, blah, blah, he will conduct a press conference. And he was livid about that fact. He also wrote in his book that I'm writing this book to correct. Now, incidentally, I in my imprint, that book is published, but I thought, Okay, say that, I mean, he's not knowing that he's actually contradicting his own senior. So there's Mr. Ms. Singh. And Mr. Aiman. Singh is joined commissioner of crime during the blast. And later on, he became the police commissioner moment, and it was on one, MN saying during his tenure as a joint commission had compiled a tree titled Mumbai organized crime. So when he had compiled it retries, in that retries, he had, clearly now this is a research work done by the anti crime branch, a lot of people were involved in it, it must be. So many officers must have collaborated and contributed to the writing of the treatise. So Mr. Singh had written in that retries, that manuscript was responsible for conspiring planning and killing Saville caster. So here is one guy who was associated at that time, I don't know how much information he had, how limited is sold in federal, and here's the main thing was saying this. So I allow people to object I allow them to defer. It's okay. And I don't mind because in the end, we know that the tools are here, but here, I thought that someone should raise a question about

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the credibility of the whole thing. So I thought I was gonna ask someone as senior as Mr. Neal's one who's also friend, so which is, uh, his kept scripting didn't offend me. I thought, okay, he's doing his job. And as a journalist, I'll do my job. That's okay.

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Yeah, exactly. I think you're opening it up for discussion for food for thought, right? It's not just who's right, who's wrong, and all of that, let's, uh, you know, what I what I find really confusing. So why was it difficult to sort of get, you know, the right publisher for this book, because you did mention that you've pitched the book. And we also spoke to Senator Ghosh, who is, you know, teaching at our current publishing course. And he mentioned about this book, so So could you please tell us a bit about that, you know, why was why was sort of this book hard to pitch? And And finally, how did it find a hope? So what happened was that when I made

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the synopsis for this book,

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I was looking for a publisher, now, I, I will not name them. But I sent the synopsis to several of my publishers, there were some who who wanted to publish it, but they were not willing to offer a decent advance on it, there were some who are who are not very happy with the way the story will unfold, they had their own ideas, that no, that should not happen that this and whether you are having this or you are going to. So I realized that either there is some kind of interference, or there is some kind of contestation, for me to how the story will be unraveling, or how it will be told, or there is some kind of, you know, lack of it in terms of not putting in enough advance for the author who's going to spend so much money doing it. So I thought I have to only go with a publisher who first of all believes in me, the way I will tell the story without trying to tell me that after 14 books, I should be told that no, no, your story should be like this and don't do this and things are poisoned. So I thought that it all those parameters were matched by Mr. Schine. And gosh,

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I wish I'd met him earlier because as a publisher, as an intern, he's fabulous. And he gives me a lot of leeway and freedom to tell my story that way I want to in the manner I want to present it. And I get there, Simon Schuster also does a lot of good publicity for the books, which I realized were lacking with other publishers. They don't put in that much muscle for publish promoting the book. So he meets all the conditions, preconditions, and you actually get a good publisher should have.

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Absolutely, I think it's like they see the matches made in heaven. So very, yes, my special thanks to Mr. Bush. Yeah, so very happy so that this book is out there, and I will highly recommend it to all our listeners. So thank you so much for your time. So I had a lot of fun speaking to you. I've always wanted to interview on this podcast. And finally, it's happened. Thank you so much. I'm really sorry for not talking to you audio, but thank you. It was fabulous. Oh, no, it was cerebrally stimulating on so thank you. Thank you. So and we're really looking forward to more of your books. Yes. By the way, we are writing on the sequel of Reutemann. So we are working already working on it. Oh, that's amazing.

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We'll be publishing it. Awesome. Awesome. Can't wait. So thank you.

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So here we are, where the end of yet another journey into the many worlds of Books and Beyond with bound. I'm Tara Knievel. I'm Michelle D'costa. And this podcast is

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Created by bout a company that helps you grow through stories. Find us at sound India or all social media platforms. So tune in every Wednesday if you live, eat and breathe books and join us as we discover more revolutionary books and peek into the lives and minds of some truly brilliant authors from India and South Asia. And don't forget to keep your love for stories alive for books and beyond.