5.33 Mehak Goyal: A Debut Poetry Collection Finds A Traditional Publisher

Is our worth as women determined by our ability to make rotis? In this episode, we delve into the nuances of writing mainstream feminist poetry in India!

Join Tara and Michelle as they talk to Mehak Goyal about her book “Failure to Make Round Rotis: Poems on Rebellion, Resilience and Relationships”, about her inspiration, her writing process, and her publishing journey. How did she go from a start-up founder to a published poet? How did she decide what to write? How did she translate her personal experience into poems? And more importantly, how did a mainstream publishing house pick up a poetry book?

Tune in to find out!

Authors and Poets mentioned:
John Keats
Jeet Thayil
Ranjit Hoskote
Chitra Banerjee Divakaruni
Fatimah Asghar
Arundhathi Subramaniam
Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie

Books mentioned:
Infidel by Ayaan Ali


Produced by Aishwarya Javalgekar
Sound edit by Kshitij Jadhav

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

00:06

Welcome to Books and Beyond with bound. I'm Tara Khandelwal. I am Michelle D'costa. And in this podcast, we uncover the stories behind some of the best written books of our time and find out how these books reflect our lives and our society today. So tune in every Wednesday to enter a whole new world with a new author, and a new idea. Yes, and after three years and 2 million listens, we are back with a fall back to season five, with hard hitting questions and life changing books. So let's dive in.

00:43

Hi, everybody, welcome to Books and Beyond bound. So today is a very, very, very special episode because we have with us Mehak Goyal, who is the author of failure to make round rotis. It is a full length debut poetry collection that has been published by none other than juggernaut. And she also happens to me one of my best friends, we met in college at business school. And anyway, so we're going to talk about how she got this poetry book published, how she is capitalized on her Instagram, following over 35k followers to make mainstream poetry accessible for everybody. And we're going to be answering the question, Can poetry usually be mainstream? Yeah, I actually have very fond memories of working with Mahek on the book during the pandemic poultry kept us going. And I'm actually here to fight on what is the real shape of annuities? Because I kept it around. And what is her journey from being a startup founder to a best selling author. So we're gonna talk about why her poems are perfect for the spoken word. And I love that her poems address this feminist angle. So she talks about, you know, things like arranged marriage, things like, you know, women's bodies, the big fat, Indian wedding, to failure to wake round rotis, of course. And she's had quite an interesting journey, lot of roller coasters rejections, so let's just get into it. Welcome back. Welcome. Thank you, Tara, thank you for sharing. Thanks for having me here. I've been listening to your podcast and the beginning. So I can't believe I'm finally sitting here and actually talking to you guys. Yeah. So my heck, you know, you achieve so much, and I'm involved, and you got your book deal. And you called me up, and you're not from this field. And I just was like, Oh, my God, you know, we work with so many writers, you know, cross sales want to get published, and you've done it.

02:40

And you don't get both Dara and me together. And that's sort of like where our friendship also started. And it was so amazing to see that you finally got this book deal so fast. So how did that all begin sort of from the NBA, you know, now to becoming one of India's sort of most famous poets? How did that like transition happen? So I've always been our issue. So either I feel that every week that I talk on the phone even right, we reserve half an hour to discuss which books are you reading, and we give stars to each and every book that we read. And it's a fun conversation. I've always loved poetry, but I used to read more in terms of the old poets, who used to write in rhymes, which is maybe John Keats, which is again very interesting, because that's how Tara and I met, we went to John Keats house.

03:35

So that was one of our first visits. And it was a really, really interesting experience. We got to know how he started writing poetry, etc. So I used to read a lot of poetry.

03:49

Unfortunately, what happened was, I had a freak injury due to which I wasn't bedrest for about six months. This was about three years ago, I had a successful startup, I had to close it down, I went through a really bad breakup. Around the same time, I was at the lowest phase in my life, I was bedridden, I had to close my startup, and I didn't know what to do. And I fell poetry what came to me at a time when I really needed it the most. So I've always loved reading fiction and nonfiction but the problem with that was when you read a fiction book for it to really resonate with you, you need to read it till the end. And even for a nonfiction book, you need to at least read one or two chapters for it to completely be absorbed in our system. With poetry. I picked up a couple of contemporary poets. Additionally, the ocean or the supreme rhenium and

04:48

these pages, these lines, each line was to be savored, and the effect was absolutely magical. I felt on top of the world again, and I felt that you know, poetry needs to be

05:00

He made mainstream it needs to be out there. We need more poets in India. And I wanted people to read poetry when they want to heal when they're feeling no. And this is the kind of writing that can completely change your mind. I want to use the word instance.

05:22

Okay, well, so yeah, I mean, it's just, I think, as you said, poetry has been sort of a lifesaver. I mean, literally and metaphorically. And I've had a very similar relationship with poetry. Because I think all of us, you know, when when we're in school, we sort of, you know, write these poems which arrive and begins, it's really begins with that you also read poetry, which rhymes, and then you sort of evolved from that. But you know, before we go deeper into your publishing process, Mahek arts is a burning question that the nation wants to know. Why is your book called failure to make round proteins? And this is what I really want to know is what is the actual shape of your

06:00

right, so for the first question, I feel our work as women, unfortunately, even today is defined by the roundness of our rotis. And I really wanted to change the narrative.

06:15

Having said that, one of my favorite poems from the book is titled How to make rotis. And we weren't processing wolves, even in childhood, right, I remember my extended family coming up to me and telling Oh, she can make round rotis who will marry her?

06:33

And everything about a girl revolves around Oh, can she cook, round rotis. So I wanted to change that narrative going forward, and hence,

06:43

this title, and I cannot cook rotis round

06:49

squares. But I

06:51

mean, if

06:53

I want to share the experience, or like, you know, you know, different apps, there are different dating apps, Metapod apps, all of that. So I remember chatting with this guy once and it almost felt like an interview for a cooking role.

07:07

Instead of instead of, like finding out, you know, about like materials, and you know, different things, what are my interests that will go secondary? The first thing was Michelle, can you cook it? Oh, am I being hired as a cook?

07:18

Some funny, but I totally relate I am, it's a very contemporary thing. I think what your book, you know, what you're doing really well, as you're sort of capturing what young women in India are facing today. And I really liked what you said is that you're doing it in a way that is very accessible, that, you know, you can sort of feel those emotions instantly, right. And one of the mediums that you've done it through is not only the book, but through Instagram. And that's something that we've not really seen in India, you know, using sort of Instagram as a medium, and communicate these very high quality, serious topics, but also in a way that, you know, everyone can tap into that. So can you sort of also tell us about, you know, that journey of Instagram journey, you know, how its members had to sort of, you know, grow as a poet or, you know, make poetry accessible? Absolutely. So, when I started writing, I started posting a few of the extracts on Instagram. Again, Instagram is Soundweb. If I go on Instagram today, I will just want to read maximum a couple of lines to change my mood. And I finally wanted to connect with the Gen Z's and the millennials.

08:30

When I started writing poetry, I started writing a lot more about heartbreak. Because I was going through one, I'm just the kind of love that poured in actually surprised me more than anything, because I wasn't expecting that at all. Right now I am at around 40,000 followers. It's been, it's been a surreal journey for me. And I do feel that putting my content out there did help me get this contract, which are not, because I feel like once they have the validation that oh, she has X number of followers and her book will sell or at least starting through her followers. I think even the publishers show some kind of

09:14

brownie points for that. You got that validation from only Instagram are also really serious, like journal, I was glad that you are sort of in this, this No, I feel like you're in this point where you are taking high quality poetry and making it accessible. And also speaking to an audience that, you know, Michelle, your story, right? Every time I talk about this book, to you know, any of my friends yesterday, I met a friend, and I told her about this book, and she read it and she said that, you know, look, I'm you know, she's 27 years old, she said, I'm going to rearrange Matt, and this is exactly what I'm going through. Because this is sort of, you know, what every sort of human in India, some form or the other, you know, goes through so I think that it really speaks to that.

10:00

I had this so many words of full length poetry collection, that it was like 100 on poems in this book. All of them are so great. I love the technique. So what was like your favorite Michelle? And I also know when you write what is your favorite? Michelle, what is your favorite? Oh, my, I think it would be very tough to pick. Yes, there are there are quite a few that I remember that we had worked on and I kept getting electric. Wow. Like I just what I liked is she's taken the sort of themes and topics that we all think about, but she's sort of written that in a way that that really stays with you. So I think one of the points that really stayed with me was called passport. Because you know, I mean, women have been objectified over the years in different forms. And the way she uses the, you know, sort of woman in the form of a passport, I reckon I got, I think there's a line in it that says like, he stamps, the Oh, can you please read that line? If it's possible. It's just it's just one line. But that's going to stay with

10:57

Carlos the mangalsutra, around my neck, holding the leash. On your knees, he says, stamps and over on my forehead. I got that like,

11:09

for stamping so good on the forehead. I love that. And I kept telling people like after reading that I kept telling people you should read you should do this. For me, that was it. I think you know what I like to so bold. And also these analogies, like a woman has a passport.

11:24

One of my favorite points was his requirements for a bride. And her requirements for a group because mannequins use, you know, whitespace really well. So in his requirements for a room, they're sort of like,

11:37

pretty bright, it's all laser focused.

11:40

And then invoice requirements for group is just a sort of a blank page. So so that was one of my favorites. What Mac what was sort of like, you know, a point that because I remember also, when you started dieting, we were Michelle and I were reading some of the early drafts. Yeah, that time itself, we were like, well, you know, there's something here. You know, we knew that, you know, poetry is very difficult to get published. Maybe we almost silicate, and I'm happy, I will speak about your journeys coming out. Yeah. So but that time, we knew that, you know, this is powerful. You tell us. So before I go to my favorite poem, I just want to say that it was done with a lot of intent, right? In general, there are two schools of pointer today, why does the rupee core school afford three, where, you know, you put a lot of content on Instagram, it is very accessible. At the same time, it is talking about the most relevant things in a very diluted way. Right. And then there's another Ranjit Hoskote days, and he has a lot of poetry, who write poetry, which is to be savored, sometimes you need even half an hour to read that poetry. And the effect is magical and will blow you away. But people in our generation do not have that time and energy, right. So I thought I wanted to bridge the gap between both of these schools. So it was an intentional effort from my side to write about the things that were slowly affecting me, which is basically the discrimination that women face on a day to day basis that is very conveniently swept under the carpet. And this is the starting point of where I thought you know, my voice will matter where I said, I need to write about things such as arranged marriages, which is normalized today. The girl is not having a say in the marriages, again, normalized today, how beauty is directly proportional to how fair you are very, very normal, right? So I wanted to talk about all of these things going forward. In this book, coming to my favorite poem, it is called Remembering childhood. It is my favorite poem, because it stands the journey of a woman from childhood to womanhood. And it is also the first poem of mine, which got published in Madras, Korea. So I was on top of the world, I couldn't see that something like this could happen. I just getting published in our National Journal gave me so much more confidence to keep writing so that podium will always stay close to my heart. And can you read out a little bit of your poetry for answer just because you're also spoken?

14:15

To get a flavor? It's our first sort of poetry book. Yes. And you said you can get the effects instantly, so

14:21

let's get some Yes. I'm gonna be reading an extract from what was said when he fell in love.

14:30

She can't even come bindi. What do you guys gonna eat? Seedlings tequila. Look at one shot after the other. Who's this guy hugging her on Facebook, short skirts, hot pants. That's all she's wearing? Does he even own a sari? There she goes again. She likes her job more than him.

14:52

You're innocent data. I have seen the world your love won't last your promises won't be good.

15:00

Have you had your fun now, I only care about you and your happiness, I will do some wine for you.

15:12

It was, it wasn't like I was sitting in a room full of aunties and over and hips dropping over here. Just I wouldn't just want to know maybe, because you also mentioned that it's your favorite. What inspired this, like, I do know that it is a sort of culmination of everything that we have sort of see. But was there a moment which sort of triggered this moment and I have to write this. So I think I feel that, especially I thought, my parents had an arranged marriage, they are very well sorted, why they are happily married. But I've seen all of my cousins and even friends around me around the same age who are getting into the concept of arranged marriage, sometimes with force, I mean, that is happening. And I found that we need to start addressing this. Because sometimes girls do not get the privilege of even saying no to the guy if he says yes. And I have been through this entire journey myself. And it was a harrowing process, getting an Indian matchmaker to tell you that you're not pretty you do not deserve a creative guy. Or maybe Oh, how much dowry Can you pay will define, oh, gosh, will define how much? You know what kind of a guy or a family will you get? So these things were really astounding for me because I come from a very

16:41

free thinking family. And when these Indian matchmakers and even a Panditji came to our house, and he was like, Oh, I'll make sure I make isn't it by the end of the year or something. And he told me tend toward cars, which I have a poem about in the book and so on. And he is well,

16:59

he was just flabbergasted. I was like, What is going on? How can somebody else didn't tell me if I'd be happy with an X Y, Zed person, just depending on the quarterly indices, or the chart he sees in front of him. So all of these things combined, I said, you know, somebody does need to address the elephant in the room.

17:20

It might

17:24

be Adobe or not around. Exactly everything feeding and all the possibilities and the insecurity. Yeah. Okay. So now let's come to your publishing. That is like, I mean, you know, getting a full length publishing contract, full length book published by a mainstream publisher. I think juggernaut has not probably I've not seen any other way. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's I mean, we see two writers, and it's impossible to get poetry published. You know, you've done it. And obviously, because of the quality because of the audience you have, because of, you know, the topic you're talking about. So can you tell us, but it wasn't easy for you so, so can you tell us your publishing journey? Take us through it? No further.

18:11

So I think the writing was as difficult as making your own routine.

18:17

But I felt that publishing was a journey that I was even prepared for.

18:24

I completed this token year back and I felt, you know, I'm going to publish it. But how because I'm not in this industry. I don't have any contacts here. And I didn't know the ABCs of doing it. So as simple as it sounds, I Google searched to find publishing houses I made I want a gentle submission form. And I said, Okay, let's wait for two, three months, if they call back.

18:49

It'd be great. If not, there's nothing to lose, right? I had been here

18:55

for six months. And then I said, No, I need to take things more than my control. So I curated a list of about 300 commissioning editors, what Yes, now I know where the commissioning and

19:11

commissioning editors, they truly insurance editors at Penguin, and just reached out to them on LinkedIn, on Instagram and on a cold humans. Absolutely cold emails, just sending a few of my poems seeing their interest. Surprise, surprise. 90% did not reply. So I said, you know, what else can I do? So my next step was actually going to their offices and trying to talk to them. So I remember standing out of roupas marble Collins offices for us. This is in Delhi, right? Right. And I stood there for hours and hours and I went to the receptionist and I was like, Whoa, can I meet somebody? This is my poetry book and I had a few copies printed just to give to

20:00

The following show today, and I said it's so fun when you print it, you might print out a few copies to give so that it looks like a book and they have more context about it. Right. So can I send you know, can I please just meet somebody who would be really who's the right person to meet for this right? Because on LinkedIn and just says, you know, I work at Rupiah doesn't say anything as so I don't even know the right contact person at any of these organizations, right. So interestingly, what happened was the person said, I cannot let you meet anyone if you don't have an appointment. And how are you

20:37

doing?

20:40

Think this is such a catch 22. So I stood there, I, I was almost on the verge of crying. And I said, okay, it's fine. I just keep waiting during the science, and it's okay. Somebody will come out for maybe a lunch break, smoke break, whatever. And it turned out that people do this, and I started talking to them. Oh, gosh, oh, my. So that's how it started.

21:04

I just want to add that it takes guts to do that. Because, I mean, I know that I had founded a lot of people online, but I have not yet upon in person. But I would say it takes a lot of Westerners, especially when you don't know the industry, right? As you said, you know, it was a very harrowing process. Like, what kept you going? Honestly, like, I mean, like, despite despite those those kinds of reactions, were like, Hey, who are you with? Like, you know, like, Why? Why do we give you the time of day.

21:32

I can just faith in my book, I've always been an entrepreneur in my life I've had my first startup was for about five, six years before I had any injury. So I decided to give the book at least two years of my life, I went all in.

21:50

And I create this book as a startup again, where in the phase one, I need to reach out cold cold to as many people as I can get rejected as many times as I can. I know I'm

22:02

right now. But at that time, I agreed. Michelle, I was slowly difficult. Some other times, I just didn't want to get out of the house again, ever show my face to anybody ever again, right? Because the kinds of things that you hear or are sent to you, they're not.

22:17

So again, just to get up and be like, okay, just give me another day. And I don't get up again and be like, Okay, do I have to do this? If I don't have faith in my own project, then then nobody else? I mean, I think that's one of the things that I always liked about you. Is that that startup, you know, that mentality, and the fact that you're able to sort of, you know, also like read this book, that I think it's a good lesson for like lots of like writers to, to, to sort of that project Exactly. On that timeline. Also, you know, there's a definite timeline, if it works, it works, but doesn't work, does it? Yes. But tell us about those goals. You mean, the biggest ambition and now cheeky, sir, that works? Yeah, foot personally selected? Yeah. So it all paid off. That, right. So again, she was in the 300 contacts that I wanted to reach out to, and I was very hesitant.

23:13

Not from the fact because I knew who tickets icon is, but till now, I was only approaching like the managing editors for the editors and the style, even when it ends and read as like, Oh, can I send domain to a CEO of juggernaut lair? You only mean like, Hi was Patrick Kay. And I literally took Why not even press that said, so I sent her a mail. I'm a big fan of your work and I love the actually prints a lot of feminist books, right? That's why I was like, Okay, this is this might work but it might not even juggernaut was one of my top choices going forward. And I sent her a mail a few poems, and said, you know, just have a look. And we could have a discussion whenever you want.

23:57

And I still remember when I got back the first reply from I

24:03

rushed to my mom and showed her you know, what it is getting used to.

24:10

I know, I was my head, I need more boys.

24:16

So I

24:20

so what I did was I sent her a badger for any five of my favorite poems from the one by the poems in the book. I also sent her images of the cover page that I had made, I also sent her images of the Insight book, because I had spent a lot of time in working on the illustrations on the book with Chicago as well. So I sent her all these images to show her that the product is complete. And this was June 2023.

24:46

And she says, okay, my hip. Let's get on a call tomorrow.

24:52

Wow. And this was one of the most nerve wracking experiences for me, and I was like, Oh, I don't know what the context

25:00

Is she gonna say yes? Is she gonna say no, this was I didn't even know how to prepare myself. What is she gonna ask? And she calls me next morning it was 9am OCR density.

25:13

And she calls me up and she's like

25:17

Mahek How did you write this?

25:21

was difficult question.

25:24

So again, I told her, you know, the same things that I told you that I wanted to write a book about the discrimination that women face today, and you said is range managing happening in India today.

25:37

And actually, when I told you about my journey about how my cousin's most of my friends are getting married through arranged.

25:46

And after that, she said, Okay, give me some

25:50

time within the next time, she'd say to me, and we said, let's do this within an arm. That's so cool. That's, that's amazing. That's really cool. I really, I want to get that free kick that you showed. And I was just all over the moon at that time. I couldn't have asked for better. Yeah, no luck, no, folia whatever journey I mean, I'm still sort of reeling from it. And also they're like, you know, during when it was happening, I still can't get out, you know. So just fantastic shared about, you know, my journey. So I had really bad experiences

26:30

as well. It's like, literally demo two instances. And I reach out to small poultry producers who publish only poetry collections. Okay. I reached out to them. And literally, we were at this phase where I had got a contract. And then there was, there was there was just silence. I was ghosted. I'm like, okay, Russia, you deserve better. And I was, as you said, I was I was really low. And I kept speaking to other poetry readers, this happened as this happened. And then what basically what they told me was see small presses, unlike big permissions, they don't usually have the budget and all of that. And so it was really, really difficult for me to, you know, sort of wrap my head and all that. But finally, when I did send out my work to the America press, I was like, Okay, this is the last last or limited when you see, okay, let me see. You know, I think not giving up is another thing. And finally, when the email returned, I just I couldn't believe my eyes. And because this really happening, I think, I think though, the motto is that you will not give up. And you just keep trying, because you never know what will click Yeah. Actually, my mom has this very interesting saying that you can get rejected by 100 people, 1000 people, 10,000 people doesn't matter. You just need that upon acceptance. 100% i Exactly. Exactly. And not just with writing, I think in general my life. So we see so many books coming up, right? When we're in this industry, we are reading Indian books, yet we're not seeing many I've not seen many poetry books coming out from the mainstream publishers, you know, we have fiction nonfiction. Yeah, we have some of the poetry books, you know, that from very well known names, like, I know that these are Romani, or you saw G tile, right. But I have not seen many sort of new works of writing come out. And I have to say that I am not sort of poetry reader, and I'm a reader. But I never actually, you know, took up poetry as my genre. And what I found interesting about this book is that convert it converted a reader who's not a poetry, you know, into a poetry reader, because it was easy, it sort of eased my mental blocks against poetry, and we can talk more about that. But I want to know, you know, are you the exception to this rule that poetry doesn't get published and debut poets do not get published? Or is this a trend that is changing what's going on with mainstream boy with mainstream publishers in poetry?

28:51

Most of the experience I have poetry in India is the Bangalore Poetry Festival. It was my first time attending that event or speaking on that event. And it was such a wonderful occasion as well. What I found out is that most of the people whose books are getting published right, they are not from our generation, they are of the age maybe of our parents or even older.

29:18

Gentleman, Dr. Sal was one of the biggest crowd pullers at the event. Next year, it could be a bizarre sir right. So, these icons are still being the cow colors for poetry. There is no crowd puller in today's age time according to our contemporary poets. We do not have a rupee core of India as of now in India. Is that something you want to be

29:45

or not?

29:47

I do not want to be an Instagram poet. I want to be known for my work. I do feel that my writing is accessible. I want to speak you know large volume

30:00

assumes and I want to keep writing exclusively poetry going forward. But I do feel somewhere down the line that my writing is maybe a tad bit better Finn pause if I can say so. Crowd pillows are the people who either win way old, older generation, and also forgot people who win prizes, right. And that's why the Navy getting published because of the cloud and the brand, but they may not have the sales, right, you said that chickie wanted to publish your book because it's not only good that it has the potential to win those prizes. But it can also contribute in sales. And it's always that sort of like that sweet spot where, you know, writers have to be how do you get the you know, what is the landscape right now, in terms of more books like yours even like coming out or the mentality of people towards that? So the surprising part here is that every publisher that I received a rejection from for no reason, right? The main reason was a poultry doesn't sell in India be you know, your, you do not have, let's say an X amount of followers on Instagram. So we don't know if your sales will convert or not. But when I go to bookstores today, right from a bookworm in Bangalore to offer kids or they're in Delhi to white crow in Bombay, my books are all sold out at more stores than I can count. And it just astounds me, when I talk to people at these bookstores, they tell me poetry is a huge market for them as well, wherever you go, they will, of course, have a poetry array. And people love reading poetry, maybe I think even the publishers need to print a lot more contemporary poets. Right now, I think Skaven industry lies as well, let's say, all of these bigger artists from Ajit Theil to so deep sand, they do publish their own works, but they also publish anthologies where they pick up, you know, 100 or 500 own poems from contemporary Indian poets. But people today, right would not have the energy to pick up that big book of poetry. Well, they are so scared of poetry, I am scared telling you, I'm telling, like, you know, I really was scared for you. Because I thought, you know, this is something that despite being a reader, I mean, you know, you guys know me, I thought this is something I would not be able to get into without, you know, consistent effort in time, I didn't realize, after reading your book, that I, you know, I could sort of like very, like, come to enjoy it. And also, I can read, you know, you know, I can read fluff materials and like badly written stuff well written, but easy to grasp or understand poetry. Yeah. And it's interesting reading that actually see, as a writer, even me, and I'm the kind of, you know, writers who have reached out to me, they have said, you know, poetry is something that I don't understand, or, you know, the use, I'm not a poet, it's always the label that they put out for themselves. And I want to put by, right, why don't you start smaller than then they immediately the next step is what kind of for them, they go into that kind of thing? And then eventually, they say, No, poetry is not for me. So I think it's not just from reading, it's also with writing. And you add to what you said earlier, Mahek, I do agree that anthologies is like a, it's an interesting way to sort of discover other points. Because what I've noticed is, let's say you know, to buy a certain points collection, it's on what it's like from the readers point of view. Also, it feels like you're not investing in one point. But when you get an anthology, you're like, Okay, I might be getting an overview of the entire contemporary poetry scene, but like you said, it should be well thought, right? If the size itself is bad, what is the point if people can't get access to it? Again, the point is that people are so alienated from the concept of even reading poetry, right? presenting them with such a big fat book, right? Is kind of Halloween or skinny to the first place. So I feel the things that I did changes one made the title very accessible with the title standout and stamp on the cover that it is a strong feminist poetry book, take it or leave it, so female to make round rotis as as feminist according to me as it can get. And it also says in the subtitle poems on rebellion, resilience and relationships, it gives you a gist of the entire poems. I also feel that reading an entire book is like taking the author's taking the readers hand and taking them on a journey throughout the book, right. That is why we love reading in anthologies. That is not possible. Right, reading one point, you're on a one shot journey, then you get out of the next MedPro stop. It says this is the point of view this is.

34:55

Yeah, so just like how you have these anthologies, you also have online retail

35:00

New journals which I so what I did is, you know, earlier, I had a lot of confidence with my poetry because you know, as everyone, I started writing rhyming 14 school, I thought I was the best for a while. And then I realized after reading, I sort of broadened my reading tastes, and I kept reading different kinds of poetry, and then eventually, I figured out what my voice is. And then I realize that you want me it's a personal relationship that you build with poetry, right? What I did was I made a list of literary journals to get published in and make him a target. Like I said, you know, net, two years, three years. And I said, Okay, if I make it to these journals, maybe in the next two, three years, something that I have done decently well, and when I cracked that, I was like, oh, wish I was on cloud nine.

35:48

I want to really understand this right? What is it that sort of makes a point in India? You know, why am I asking this question? Because it's not just my personal journey, but the lot of boys who have also reached out, right, is it you know, these contests like the total price, right, which is actually it's restricted to young writers. So if you're, if you're 20

36:08

the second I could send it or when I read the

36:12

when i The question is, what is success? Right? Is everyone me? Is it the journals? Is it good prizes? Is it is it getting published? Is it totally just being a poet and and the other thing what I want to know is what support did you get you know, what is because we talk about poetry Lansky now. So what are the what are the other poets in India that exotic? Is there an ecosystem you guys really juggles work? What is your journey, like within the poetry community in India? So for me, I think the sweet spot or when I started reading, Indian writing, was all these authors from Chitra Banerjee to Amrita Mohali, all of them had such accessible good fiction. And at the same time, it was so powerful that they have won awards, as well as accolades for their work. So that was the inspiration or aspiration, you will see both of these things that I started with, I want to do that for poetry, what is already been done for, let's say, historical fiction. Today in India, I want to replicate that for poetry. But I also feel that I cannot do it on my own. For historical fiction. We honor the Neil got a major report, he did that. But Nylex had to come together to have that sort of revolution for that channel, I feel we need a lot more strong poetry, a lot more strong contemporary poetry by contemporary writers for contemporary writers, a revolution.

37:47

What is the poetry ecosystem like in India today? Like, why are fellow poets? How do you sort of navigate that?

37:54

There are, again, a couple of schools of poetry here all one is, of course, a very, very famous one as the spoken word poets, killing it on Instagram and YouTube, they are very, very accessible. But their timelines is about you know, one reel of them one reel of the US becomes famous around five to six years later, once they start performing. And because again, it's hard it needs to be honed and needs to be one that right. And then there are poets who are getting published in journals, and they are working on it's sort of a part time basis, when they're not able to dedicate so much time to their craft, that they can complete a poetry select a collection of their own,

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which kind of hampers the entire process. And then it is just limited to, let's say, submitting to journals and getting published in anthologies. So I also feel another thing that worked for me was the length of the poetry book, I was very insistent on writing, there are 120 poems in this book, over 200 pages, a general poetry book that you will see today will have at max 50 to 80 poems, at is a dot add 50 points, but then less than 100 pages.

39:14

No. So I wanted to go all out in terms of providing that rich, nourishing experience to the reader and telling them you know, we are going on this journey together. And for me, you know, to get an idea of the poetry ecosystem, what I do is literally a bookmark or every new issue that comes out from literary journals. And I can sort of see, okay, which on the web, especially the poetry section, and I read them and if I like something, I follow that poets conference, like, you know, is the is the collection gonna come out? Has there been anything? I think that's another way to sort of keep track so many book covers role of these hot topics like, arranged marriage, and then you have a poem on Barbie and Ken and how they are they're sort of arranged. So I want to know

40:00

that these points which are sort of very hard hitting, trying to talk about the taboos in Indian society, what is the impact that they are actually having?

40:09

That's a very interesting question, Michelle. And I'm glad that so many people are reaching out to me on Instagram, on Facebook, on even LinkedIn.

40:19

And many others that tell me, you know, specifically young girls who are in college who are in school who want to pursue their dreams were younger message me the other day, she said, you know, Mac, I probably really want to go to college of my dreams, which is entirely my family doesn't want me to go out of my way to to city. And she said, you know, can you just support me and tell me that I'm doing the right thing for us something as simple as that, right. And I talked to her for an hour, and I said, you know, listen, you can't give up on your dreams, always with something that will make or break you. So if you got into the EU, please go to be withheld. achieve all the things that you can. And I don't know any of these people, right. I also want a DM from another person who said, my parents are making me meet these arranged matches, where, where they expect me to, you know, be dressed in very traditional clothes, where upper lower and all that. And the guy specifically asks me, Oh, can you go crown rotis? Oh, we'll take care of the case after marriage, whether your responsibility or not, and I'm completely not comfortable with this line of questioning. And she said, Is it okay for me to tell him I don't want to take these decisions today. Like I said, we need to have boundaries, and this is going to be a collective decision going forward. So and people today more than anything, are, you know, searching for that resonating factor, everybody?

41:51

I feel a little older. But everybody is going to go through this experience from childhood to women who are where we have to put up pretty foot forward, the time rich guy walks in to but out here, right? That is a German expectation or the society has from us. And if we find him boring or unappealing god,

42:13

there's something wrong with us. Yeah, no, it's so weird. I think like all of us have, like gone through this thing.

42:21

But I think it's about the validation that your readers also feel like the right action. Exactly. To change. Yep. It's more like, I mean, someone gets me Yeah, like, you know, me for a mindset to change. It might take a lot of years, but then you know, you're sowing a seed somewhere. And it's sort of starting. But yeah, I would, I would like to go deeper into into maybe a couple of forums, because and as you mentioned, there are four to five sections that are over 80 poems in the collection, sort of what I really liked about the collection was the flow, right? Because we have a prologue, right. I want people to know that this book is also very unconventional in its flow, right? Not just in the topics that it picks. So there is a turnaround is an epilogue, and there are sections which are titled how to do laundry, you know, the Indian matchmaker of humans lexicon. So that, you know,

43:11

could you maybe focus on one of these sections? So let's say a woman's lexical? Um, why did you decide to have a section on that? And what are the kinds of poems that you present? When I started writing, I wanted it to come. I wanted the poems to talk about the life that I've had till that point. And that's, again, everybody's lifestyle. So childhood, the first section is about childhood being bullied yet being resilient. The second section is about adulting, starting my own startup,

43:42

how I started writing. The third section is about heartbreak. heartbreak when a person tension for a date heartbreak from a long term relationship. The fourth section is about love. And it is not the oh my god, I'm in love. But it is about being vulnerable in love. Oh my God, will you doubt me tomorrow, as much as he loves me today. Kind of love just having that kind of

44:09

confidence, as Michelle had spoken about earlier in ourselves that we don't deserve this kind of water, we deserve this kind of love. The next two sections are a tug and pull between self love and self hate. And the last two sections, which are my favorite from the book, and which I want to punch every reader in that that audio arranged marriage and a woman's legs, it might section a bang. Nice. Okay, so the woman's lexicon section was, again, it is the title of one of my favorite poems. And it begins with how my grandmother once I got my periods, which is when you turn into a woman, she came up to me and handed a book, which is the clear woman's lexicon by saying that this is your ABC view of a woman and this is how you're supposed to behave from

45:00

Today what are you? Is it a metaphor? Should

45:05

we then have a discussion about this and then was a very traditional we're just having a general conversation and she told me that your own now that you're a woman my hair, you need to dress more properly you cannot wear dresses you can't run around with boys.

45:24

Yeah, but just those kinds of campaigns, right. So, um, and even just like taboo periods, right? Oh my Stella, whenever you go to a candy shop, they'll ramp it in there then different layers with a really a problem with this. So now I just brandish my pads, like everyday. Because I'm like, you know, I remember when I was a kid, you know, I used to feel so scared to even ask my mother to buy me Sunday night, you know, so much shame as

45:57

you know, like, like, as a prank. Oh, can you please but as you think 100 times as bad as from our though, about something that is so natural and normal. So I think yeah, definitely, that section was I think that you will go on and on about every poem in your book has a very interesting story behind it, because it's taken so many years to write each of these poems, right? And everything like your grandmother's, you know, the woman's lexicon, we can go into all these poems, and I wish we could get

46:27

a longer episode all the foils

46:31

when we are Anyway another episode so I want to ask you, what are your favorite books? What are your favorite books and and also to book recommendations, because I know you're also an avid reader. Yes. And if I can just add book recommendations, let's say for people who are not able to be disappointed someone who wants to sort of stand out and get a 14. So my favorite poet right now is Fatima as girl she has this beautiful, beautiful book if they come for us. It is.

47:00

She is a migrant in us. So she also talks on top of feminism. She also talks about the racism and everything else she faces before 911 After 911 and it's a beautiful, beautiful book do give it a read. My other favorite poets are obviously another piece of drama noon, I adore her work. One of my favorite writers of all time as Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. If you haven't read her work book, start with her TED Talk, We Should All Be Feminists, and I just completely an offer work, I wish I can be there sometime wishful thinking and putting it out to the universe as well. And another writer that I'm really proud of, I'm also doing this thing where I'm reading from writers around the world, not just us in UK, because that is what were taught. Because most of the best selling lists are from these two countries, again, English speaking countries. So what I started doing is starting reading from people in translations and starting started reading people who are from different countries. So I really love this book. It's titled infidel, my hand honey, and it has a beautiful book about resilience. She, she was from Somalia, and she has survived female mutilation, brutal beatings by her family. And then she was getting arranged marriage and being shipped to a different country. And she stopped them evilness took,

48:46

you know, claimed

48:49

what is it called asylum claim asylum that asylum there became a member of parliament in the islands. And he was just mind blown by our journey from having that sort of offering gate to completely taking control of your destiny is something that truly inspires and empowers you. So do get these books, I think.

49:17

Yeah, I think your book also, it would have an international audience as well. Yeah. Anyway, so we had the last lecture of this interview, which is called the final quiz round, and we have a quiz master. So Michelle, I do love this these downs. Can you get to pick only one of the rotating Okay, one phase that you hate hearing. She's too much while she like this, no one will marry.

49:46

No one will marry No.

49:48

One dish that you weren't tired of perfecting? Dal, roti or rice? Definitely, you

49:57

know, it's difficult. What to do.

50:00

Shouldn't customer that you would love to get rid of through your poetry? Karachi What Can ya done? Also paragraph

50:10

oh my god, mashallah, you used a lot of imagination

50:17

for sure. I there's another poem in the book about that, but I just want to understand Kanye Dawn is literally donating daughter to the new family, which is beyond me. I can't even that's why we did it. Okay, awesome. One thing that you have been judged off the most, your dressing your complexion, your profession? All of them.

50:44

I don't feel that my gosh.

50:47

Oh, God needs to work on. Okay. Well mind all canals.

50:55

Then fitness infinity how mind because the other things can both on its own. Okay, this is our last one. Your ideal care must be carry chivalrous, love it.

51:10

I think caring for me is the most important thing. Once you care for somebody that neatly then it is very easy to love that person and be loved as well.

51:23

And the question is, Have you fallen? I can tell.

51:29

That's what I'm not.

51:35

Lovely, cool. I think that we will sort of really continue this. But you know, I just want to again, congratulate you on the book and the fact that reaching so many people, and just hope it continues reaching so many people again, and the fact that she gets her girl picked it up because more validation. And you can sort of you know, you don't need any more validation than that, based on where Hank, I'm so happy that you my friend has become a best selling author into many, many more books. And I bet you the next time you don't want to be you know, you're not going to need to go to 300 vouchers, you're going to have punctures running after. Frankly, I was consistently that

52:13

time when the next election coming up. And the last thing

52:18

I don't know if you see this show called couples at my show. But ideally he asked this question in the middle where he's like, Oh, what did you do to come here on this show? I said it's the beginning when I started thinking, how can I get on?

52:34

Board? Gosh, so you ask them

52:41

Yeah, so this brings us to the end of another fantastic episode like another another if you want a poetry fan or you have anybody you know who's afraid of checking out poetry make them listen to this podcast, and we do hope it will change their minds. Thank you so much for being with us. We'll be back next week with another episode.

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So here we are, where the end of yet another journey into the many worlds of Books and Beyond with bound. I'm Tara Knievel. I'm Michelle D'costa. And this podcast is created by bound a company that helps you grow through stories. Find us at sound India on all social media platforms. So tune in every Wednesday if you live, eat and breathe books, and join us as we discover more revolutionary books and peek into the lives and minds of some truly brilliant authors from India and South Asia. And don't forget to keep your love for stories alive for books and beyond.