5.32 Neeraj Kumar: Corruption at the Grassroots Level in Indian Cricket

What would you do if you discovered your favourite sport, which is almost a religion in this country, is rife with corruption? 

Join your hosts Tara and Michelle as they unravel the shocking story of corruption in cricket with one of India's most well-respected police officers and a former BCCI anti-corruption chief.

In this episode, you'll hear from Neeraj Kumar as he tells us how he uncovered the alarming truth behind the administration that runs various cricket tournaments, including the IPL, and the impact it has on our country’s sportsmen. 

This is a podcast episode you don't want to miss. It will inspire you, anger you, and make you think. Tune in now and find out why "A Cop in Cricket" is a book you have to read, especially if you love cricket.

Books and authors mentioned in this episode: 

Byculla to Bangkok - S. Hussain Zaidi

Nine Lives - William Dalrymple

Memoirs of A Maverick: The First Fifty Years (1941–1991) - Mani Shankar Aiyar 

Vengeance - George Jonas

Confessions of a Thug - Philip Meadows Taylor
P. G. Wodehouse

Produced by Aishwarya Jawalgekar

Sound edit by Kshitij Jadhav

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

Tara Khandelwal  00:03

Welcome to Books and Beyond with bound. I'm Tara Khandelwal

Michelle D'costa  00:10

I am Michelle D'costa.

Tara Khandelwal  00:12

And in this podcast, we uncover the stories behind some of the best written books of our time

Michelle D'costa  00:18

and find out how these books reflect our lives and our society today.

Tara Khandelwal  00:23

So tune in every Wednesday to enter a whole new world with a new author, and a new idea. Yes,

Michelle D'costa  00:31

and after three years and 2 million listens, we are back with a fall back to season five,

Tara Khandelwal  00:36

with hard hitting questions and life changing books.

Michelle D'costa  00:40

So let's dive in. Hi, folks, welcome to Books and Beyond. In today's episode, we will delve into sport, which is almost like a religion in India first for Tara and me, because we haven't covered a sport on the podcast before. So from the galleries to the stadiums to the TV sets in households, cricket has been a fascination for a lot of Indians, right? And we have actually even sheduled a publishing course so that it doesn't clash with any of the match type things.

Tara Khandelwal  01:12

Yes, but as much as cricket is loved, and cricket is a religion. Our guest today will show us its ugly side, Mr. Neeraj Kumar, he was the former commissioner of Delhi police and ex chief adviser to the BCCI for the anti corruption and security unit. And he's here today to tell us just how corrupted cricket can be. In this book cup in cricket, he unfolds different kinds of layers of corruption in cricket. And we see everything from swindlers who cheat these young players, while the BCCI is looking away to share matches that are held just for the sake of betting. And people who care more about commerce and the integrity of the sport. So he has covered and he has seen it all. Yeah, and

Michelle D'costa  01:58

will actually go deeper into crickets, big dark web of lies, deceit, corruption, foul play and what not. And if someone you know who doesn't understand the sport, who has always had never really followed it, I always wanted to know what happens at the grassroots level. And Mr. Nero's book is shocking, to say the least. So let's just get into the stadium with Mr. Neeraj. Welcome, sir.

Neeraj Kumar  02:22

My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much. So So,

Michelle D'costa  02:26

to begin, let's get into the heart of the book, right. It's your love for cricket, and then your disappointment with it after serving as the head of BCCI Anti Corruption Unit. So you were a diehard fan of cricket, and we read that you know, now you would never even watch an IPL match again after learning about the spot fixing scandal. So from the boy whose hearts sword along with the ball in the air, you know to the person who can't even bear the sight of an IPL match, we want to know about your first experience with cricket you know what made you fall in love with the sport.

Neeraj Kumar  02:59

So like any Indian growing up, you play cricket in the gullies in the side streets outside your house. So I grew up in Patna in the state of Bihar. And Cricket was very popular there and we used to play cricket and but we played the that variety of cricket, which is called see ball hit ball, no fine technique, know that we learned or were taught. If you saw the ball and you just swung your bat at it. And that was it. But we enjoyed every moment of it. And then at the age of about 13 My father took me to a test match in Kolkata, then it will call to Calcutta and this was way back in 6667. The mighty West Indies were playing India. And having seen the greatest of the greats at that stadium, the Eden garden of Calcutta, which is considered the mecca of cricket east of the Suez Canal. And seeing people like Wes Hall, Charlie Griffith, Garfield Sobers. Maybe some of these names may not ring a bell with you girls, because you're so much younger than I am. But these were the names of all time greats and from our side, where Tiger put out the chance to vote a couldn't run, just SEMA and Venket Raghavan. It was a debut match of efficiency Beatty, so it was absolutely absolutely mesmerizing and ever since then, I was totally gone cricket and his love for cricket carried on delighted stumbled upon the spot fixing case of 2014. After which I have not seen a single IPL match.

Tara Khandelwal  05:13

I really like hearing about, you know, your early childhood experiences. And I think that, you know, though I also don't watch cricket like Michelle, I've seen my brother and my dad, you know, obsessed with the sport. And actually, when I read the book, you know, we've all heard about these corruption cases. But what you did so well in the book is really sort of brought it to light in terms of not only the structures, you know, that helped perpetrate this corruption, but also the very real human stories and the people that are affected by this and who got swindled from so much money. And it just honestly, it made me feel very sad as well, because something that is so revered in our country has also such a dark side. So you mentioned the spot fixing case of 2013. And in the book, you also mentioned that, you know, when you join BCCI, after your illustrious career, as police officer, you were shocked to find out just exactly what was happening. So can you point us to that one moment where you felt that there was no return and the game had completely lost its charm in your eyes.

Neeraj Kumar  06:27

That moment had come in 2013 itself. But having joined the BCCI and seeing the lukewarm response of the authorities to the whole process? Or shall we say the phenomena of corruption in cricket, and how they were treating me, although they said that they had handpicked me to fight corruption, cricket. But once I had joined the BCCI, they barely looked at me and leave alone asking me what my problems were, what was the corruption scenario? Follow the country? What needs to be done? And what are the steps required? And so on and so forth. So as to wonder, why am I here at all. But yet, rather than wait, I thought, I must show them that even with limited resources. By the way, I just had two more people with me in my team to fight corruption all over the country with over 900 matches that were supposed to supervise. I persevered and show to them that even with limited resources, a lot could be done. A lot was done. And I also tried to convey to them that if you give me adequate resources, I can do wonders to fight corruption ticket. But I'm sorry to say nothing made any impact. They're more busy with their own affairs, and then not pay any aid to me whatsoever. So that was my sad experience in the BCCI. I was there for three years. And fortunately, my misery got over in 2018. But before I hang my boots there, I did manage to get a number of people caught because of the intelligence we collected and managed to save a number of young cricketers from being conned and cheated of huge sums of money. And I also sent some amount of fear down the spine of a number of these scamsters would hide in Indian cricket. But suffice it to say that overall experience in the BCCI was far from happy.

Michelle D'costa  09:17

Yeah, and it is really heartbreaking. So because I mean your bureau conviction to sort of undo this corruption and to sort of bring justice to all those young people who want to join cricket. You know, it's really commendable because I can't even imagine a team of three dealing with an entire nations, you know, craze or fascination with cricket and it's not just within India, right. So because me I grew up outside India. I was in the Gulf and over there you know, Cricket is not really popular, right? They are mostly crazy about football or soccer, right. But within our circles, you know, Indian expats there used to be arguments between people and you know, with regards to who would win is it India is it Pakistan and they will be heated fights because people love cricket right? So Even Indians who live abroad, and it's just heart wrenching to read about some of the cases that you've mentioned in the book, right, you know, very, very vulnerable people. So there's an example of Rishabh Tyagi, you know, a young boy from Burundi in Yupi, who actually played who got the chance to play at the T 20. Tournament, you know, which was organized by someone called Sora. Bumbry. And you know, the solution was a young cricketer with big dreams. And he actually got his chance to showcase his talent right in front of really big names like Suraj tryna, you know, Robin Smith, Gary Martin, and so many more. And after this, what sort of Bumbry does is instead of encouraging this youth to sort of go ahead and give him you know, show him the right path? What he does is he tells him that Hey, Gary Martin, actually, you know, liked you and he picked you to play for the Western Australian Cricket Association, like you know, as a as a person who really dreams to be in cricket, I can only imagine what you must have felt right. It's a huge honor. You've been you don't notice by international talent. And here's the catch. So sort of says, Yes, you've been picked, but you have to pay seven lakhs, you know, in total for the travel for the visa for everything else. And you will ratio, obviously, he wanted to get in. And, you know, the saddest part is that his father was a farmer. And in order to actually arrange for seven bags, he would have had to sell, you know, part of his ancestral land. And, you know, despite his, you know, doubts, insecurities, misgivings, he actually ends up paying sort of seven lakhs, you know, just to make sure that his son gets his dream fulfilled, and he ends up going to Australia, right, but what happens after that is really heartbreaking. And obviously, you know, bhambri turned out to be a con man, nothing happened, you know, he just disappeared after that, you know, along with the poor boys passport and the Aadhaar card, you know, but what I really liked was, you know, at the end, finally, you found out that he ended up learning so many young cricketers promising them sports in the IPL and other teams, all of that, but he was actually arrested. You know, and though that is a silver lining, it's actually you know, just a temporary setback, as you call it, because why he his network is all over India, it is not even just in India, even outside in New Delhi, South Africa, Australia, you know, and he even threatened one of your co workers and shoe manufacturing, interrogating him really shocking.

Neeraj Kumar  12:22

Yes, it was quite, quite an experience. And there were several others, gangs and several others such groups that one managed to bust. But I must say that, despite what I consider to be great successes, it made no impression on the bosses whatsoever.

Tara Khandelwal  12:49

What was the reason why the BCCI, you know, looked away in such a way, and that it really didn't translate it to any further action,

Neeraj Kumar  13:01

I guess is as good as yours. The one and only objective with life is to hold the IPL matches, and to rake in the moolah. That is the impression I have, because it's more than a cricket and association to promote cricket in the country. And to see that it is run as a clean sport. It has become a body, which is solely interested in making the mega bucks holding the IPL. And so anything else that happens, it is peripheral. And they couldn't care less about what it does to the reputation of the sport or to the game. Because they know that very soon, people will forget all that. And the show will go on, as I say, that is why they did not pay any heed to my cries for help to assist me to augment my resources to fight corruption.

Tara Khandelwal  14:09

Yeah. And despite that, you know, the kinds of stories that you put in the book are, as Michelle said, really heartbreaking and very shocking. I mean, I didn't even know of the kinds of corruption that are happening in the Cricket World. You know, my knowledge was that there's a lot of match fixing or spot fixing. But the fact that these con men are actually, you know, asking these young cricketers who have stars in their eyes, to pay them and then to guarantee them places in matches that never existed or to pay them for training camps that are not legitimate. You know, to me, that was the biggest shocker. The story that stood out I think, for me was the story of Vijay Eberhard. They basically just comes from nowhere and then actually start Started pretending to be this talent scout and held all these talent camps where people paid lakhs and lakhs of rupees, and then he would disappear. You detail this case very vividly in the book. very real. I love that there's no holds barred in the book. So could you tell us and our listeners a little bit more about this case?

Neeraj Kumar  15:22

Vijay baratas case was, in fact, the first major case that I did file in the BCI. It was a case, which came away to our email address. And there was a complaint in which somebody alleged that guy called Super Joe had printed him off a huge sum of money. So Module One is a known Kamsa from Delhi, is the son of an office bearer of the religious City Association. So, while investigating that matter, we came across this name, Vijay Bahati, he comes from a small place in Maharashtra called bhusawal. So I've given his entire life story in the book. And to sum it up, he was a no Gouda. He was staying with his uncle in Bombay. And he accidentally ran into a group of people filming a small ad for the IPL at the foundation color grounds. He, in a moment of epiphany, felt that Cricket was going to be his career, and not playing cricket, but making money out of cricket. So thereafter, he teamed up with a few of his colleagues. And their job was to hold fake cricket camps, ostensibly to select people for the IPL. And to participate in the camps, we have to register. And while resisting we have to pay a huge sum of money, and 1000s of kids. And so, this fellow would make a huge killing, just at the time of registration, they would say that the we have selected Sol Sol and you will be playing for this team, that team, but those it was all the hopes nobody ever played for any team. And by the time they realized that they had been found, it was too late and they will disappear. They will switch off their mobile phones, these people had no recourse to any kind of justice till they came to us, followed it up. And luckily for us, we made a breakthrough. And with the help of the Mumbai police, we arrested Vijay Bharati and his associates they were in the cooler for a really long time. Now under child eventually they will all be convicted.

Tara Khandelwal  18:14

Yes, that was quite a roller coaster of story and I got an imagine you know how you and your team went ahead. And another thing that I found super interesting was that this man whichever Hardy he actually got the marketing rights for IPL teams like Rajasthan, Royals and Sunrisers Hyderabad, I was just laughing I was saying how you know from where to where this guy internally from nowhere is now running these sham training camps for the organizations that we think are legitimate. So how does that even happen? You know

Neeraj Kumar  18:55

so as I said, it's all about money. These franchisee dough people who own his teams, they further subcontract various activities to vendor. So he got this contract for talent hunting, he paid some 7075 lakhs to work on franchises. And he started holding his camps. And whenever they would pitch troubled in the camp, some big big from the team would come and meet people meet the participants. And then whatever little discontentment was there in the camp that would disappear. Because someone like Tom moody or someone like Mr. VVS, luxgen are some big name, you know, they'll come and talk to them. So the participants would feel that you know, it's a legitimate can, but it was actually The knot. And I've given the story of how eventually, when two cricketers began to make a lot of noise, they were told that you have been selected. And here are your tickets. This is your uniform. And these are your feedbacks. Go and join the team at Sol Sol Patel. That's also tying the team is leaving for Delhi. And they travel with the team to Delhi. Yeah, when they're getting into the team bus, the security manager of the team, stop them and asked for their accreditation. But they had none. So thereafter, they were told that you're not part of the team and our How are you even traveling with us? Then, they said that Mr. Vijay Bharati has asked us to join the team. So the security manager said visibility, who we don't know any video. And that was the end of the battle. They were left high and why they rang up their parents and said, We have been conned standard here. Please come and pick us up and so on. So that was one story that I've narrated in the book, and there must have been several others. And in each camp, my guess is that these fellows would make something to the tune of a Corolla easily and that is how the whole scam ran for till this time that we had this guy. You will be surprised to know that Vijay Bharati has also distributed prizes in a postback ceremony in handlebar on behalf of the organizers, he has sent in representative one vodka to Cindy who represented clubs so for club there. So it was a very well organized racket. And it's all because you care is not taken by the IPL authorities. And as well as by the franchise's Yeah,

Tara Khandelwal  22:20

I mean, I it was really disgusting. You know when to read about these two, the visual of these two guys all decked up in the cricket uniforms. And all of that just left, as you said high and dry. And I really liked you know, again, how real your book is, if you're naming people, you know, and even what about some of these? You know, the cricketers in our country, they are revered as gods. And some of them you know, you've spoken about in the book as so respectful. You know, always getting up whenever they see you treating you with the utmost respect. And yet there are some players who you know, obviously part of this bracket or involved in this match fixing spot fixing. So could you tell us a little bit more about your experience with the cricketers.

Neeraj Kumar  23:12

So, my experiences with the Indian cricketer was a very happy one. Because they will treat me as one of their own or not, as if I was their age group, they will joke around with the they will go out with me, you will die together. And at the same time, they will show utmost respect. At cricket when you remember, he landed up in the morning and these guys were having breakfast. And on seeing me both toning and without coding, they immediately got up. They did not have thought of that they were having breakfast. There's no need to be so formal, but they showed that kind of deference and respect for me. So, I had a very happy experience with picketers. I have mentioned my experience with Ajinkya Rouhani, who presented me with a bat or a cricketer, I was supporting in Delhi for an upcoming cricketer also my experience like normal Xiaomi or revelational Kumar and so many others. In the Indian team there was nobody who was kind of indifferent to be or who to kind of not showing the proper respect the very fine set of people. But yes, there are people from some others from the same lot, who in the moment of weakness or whatever be the situation. They go astray and succumb to the layer of big cash and commit things which they should not be indulging. So that is the ECB side of cricket. But as long as I was there, none of the cricketers themselves, top level cricketers were found involved in a corruption.

Michelle D'costa  25:11

That is, that is really a relief to know. So that, you know, because after reading all of these sort of, you know, negative, or you noticing the ugly side of cricket, it's really, really good to know that yes, there are, there are really good people out there. You know, and especially as a woman, you know, reading about the metoo movement, especially the sexual harassment that one of the BCCI employee faced, it was really, really heartbreaking. You know, and, and that actually reminded me of, you know, how variable people are sort of, I will say, vulnerable wherever people, as you said, you know, so when there's money, there is corruption. So earlier, I used to work in HR. And we found out later that people used to sort of, you know, take the name of HR, because we were just females working in HR three females, people used to say that oh, it is them, they are sort of they will be giving you an offer of employment, they will be giving you the visa, all you have to do is you have to pay, right. So there were apparently loads of people who pretended to be middlemen, you know, just assuring people that they would get visas. And actually, we just never knew that people like that existed, right? Because if you're actually given a job offer, you wouldn't ask them to pay you. Right, which a lot of people don't know. Anyway, so regarding, you know, this, this sexual harassment case in the book, so I will say it was really, really brave of you to encourage that female employee to sort of, you know, complain and not just complain verbally, but actually to write it down because you thought that it would have actually have an impact. But the saddest part is it didn't happen.

Neeraj Kumar  26:40

Right. But even when she made the written complaint, sadly, nothing was done. But that was an account of the fact that of the personalities involved in that situation. We're just unfortunate that those characters happen to be at the helm of the BCCI.

Tara Khandelwal  27:01

Yeah, it was, I can't believe the case, you know, it was against the CEO of BCCI. And even though she complained, nothing happened.

Neeraj Kumar  27:11

Yeah, eventually, he moved on. From there, he got all his dues, as well in courses to get a salary of six crores a year. And it moved on, and he now heads a media house in Mumbai. If you google him, you know the name because you've read the book, you will find that he has the media house.

Michelle D'costa  27:35

Yes, yes, I did it. That was the first thing I did. Sir. After reading about him. I googled his name. And I said, Oh, my God, this is unbelievable. I mean, imagine right, like, like somewhat, I mean, it is a known fact. Everybody knows that has happened. And yet he's been now given a position which is, you know, people people really cover it, right? I mean, in the media industry, anyway. But so you know, which this whole conversation and your entire book makes me really think about, you know, how ambitious your book is, right? Why because you're trying to not only tackle a big, prominent institution, but it's also a dream of a nation right, almost everybody wants to get into cricket. You know, while there is one person like you, who is taken on such a big task, there are 1000 Other people con men, you know fraudsters who are actually enabling corruption while we speak while you were writing this book. So what did you envision like like who is your ideal audience? Who did you want to sort of spread the message to in order to make a difference

Neeraj Kumar  28:36

was to let the readers know that firstly, Cricket is the corruption cricket is not only at the top level, but right at the grassroots level. And it is no wonder it is there at the top level because it is the people who come through the entire process of growing in the game, whether it is at the subdivision or district level or the state level or the rungy level, at every stage at the knob during selection during training, there are so many corrupt practices that are adopted. So, anyone who comes through the corrupt system and reaches the top no one can expect that suddenly you overnight that same person was come through such a system would you know turn honest, he is a product of that system, which is so written in corruption. So this message I want to give to people to the readers that if you want your top level cricket to be they have to pay attention to the lower levels also. And with a little bit of effort, it can be done provided people have the will to do it. I wanted to give them that message, through the many cases accounts of the many cases I did while I was there, to show them that this this task can be achieved, if somebody sets his mind at it.

Tara Khandelwal  30:20

Yeah, I think definitely, you know, spreading that awareness. And hopefully, you know, you know, more people are aware of that, then, you know, these young boys, you know, who are the receiving end will not get swindled, and people will not get swindled out of their life savings, it was just really horrible to read about that. And for a sport that's treated like a religion in India, you know, there's so many books about, you know, facts about cricket history about cricket. And this is a completely different side of the industry. So has there been a backlash? You know, because you've also been very real, you have used names, you know, you've said exactly what's on your mind, which was fantastic. But was there any sort of backlash to the book,

Neeraj Kumar  31:07

I did receive some oblique threats, also at no deformation, and also about physical harm, and so on, but I brush them aside, I have lived the the such kind of threats all my life. So I just did not pay enough attention. And got the old ICT out. There is no litigation against me. In the Hale and hardy. Nobody has attacked me today.

Michelle D'costa  31:42

Yes, I think so your you know, your journey in your being a cop, I think throughout your life, as long as you developed a very thick skin, which is really great. And what I find really interesting is how this book came about. So because we know that you're a writer, you've written two other books. But the origin story of this book is very interesting, or when actually your friend you know, the very famous crime writer, Mr. Who says it actually introduced you to Chiki Sarkar, who is you know, the founder of juggernaut books? And could you please tell us you know about that introduction? How did it take place? And how did you pitch the book, because I'm very sure that all these unpleasant experiences at BCCI was within you bubbling, you know, to get out there, but how do we take

Neeraj Kumar  32:24

form of a book, I did not have to pitch for the book. In fact, the it's so transpired that Chicky wanted me to write a book on the CBI when that controversy was raging in the CBI when two officers fighting amongst themselves, the number one and the number two, Mr. Alok Verma, and Lakeisha. Stannah, she because I have served in the CBI for nine years. She wanted me to write a book on CBI, I tried, but I found out that it is not working. Because even though it's out there to get any sort of information from the CBI about itself, is really difficult because it is, so many restrictions on partying with information and so on. So I told cheeky, that, look, it's not working out, is it? Okay, if I write a book on cricket, because I've just completed my tenure with the BCCI. And I have some interesting stories to say. So she asked me to give a synopsis and I gave it and she was quite pleased with it. And she she said that, please go ahead. And that is how the book came about. And I must say she was very supportive, and she still is, and they're trying to promote the book as much as possible.

Michelle D'costa  33:55

That's great. So really happy to know that the book came about very organically. So So you know, apart from all this corruption that we have discussed at different levels, right, what really astounded me the most was that, you know, despite cricketers being worshipped, right, which are actually the people who are playing the matches, right, you would imagine that their playground, which is a stadium, would be you're not perfect, it would be Paradise because people do anything to book a seat to watch a, you know, match live, right. And we've also heard of really, really strange cases where people go to any extent to book a seat, but your book actually tells us that the stadium is not a paradise right? Even the most basic amenities are missing. So could you please tell us of what are the things that are missing? And why are even the most basic things missing in a stadium where actually you have cricketers who are worshipped throughout the country,

Neeraj Kumar  34:49

to tell you, for instance, the basic approach to a stadium if you want to get into a stadium It all it is such a such a painful task, because you will not know which aid to take and which route to take, you will not know where to park your car. And this is such a hassle reaching the stadium. This there's no proper seating arrangements not to talk about clean toilets or clean, you know eating areas. And with the facilities and our cricket stadia, which is the leading cricketing nation of the world, the conditions are truly pathetic. I have traveled abroad with the team to various countries and the facilities elsewhere are so great. So it's a pleasure to go to see a match at say Lords or or on the wall, or at City cricket grounds. It's a real pleasure. But the same cannot be said of our stadia pathetic pathetic conditions and nobody wants to improve them. So much of money is spent on salaries they earned from the same spectators. But nothing is given back to the poor spectators. That is the pity. To give you an example, now we have this India vs pakistan match coming up in Hamza bought, the tickets are going for a lakh and a half. That is the going rate this is, you know, in black people have prepared to spend any amount of money to see that match. Of course, that's a new stadium I haven't seen it's I won't be able to comment on the facilities there. But other stadia, I find that the facilities for spectators, definitely below PA and even now, the stadia has the potential to get retrofitted to provide all the basic facilities that the spectators so rightly deserve.

Tara Khandelwal  37:21

Definitely, I hope that it improves in the future. And you know, coming to sort of books and movies, you know, you also have written two other books that are being made into films. And we've seen a lot of, you know, movies books about cricket, right from Kai Po Che to Legon to Jersey, there's so many books and movies about cricket. So apart from your own book, which is about corruption and cricket, what other things about cricket Do you think need to be there? I don't know book or a movie and are not there yet.

Neeraj Kumar  37:58

Will, you'll be happy to know that there are some conversations which are on for making a movie on my booklet as well. These are early days. So let us pray that the deal goes through. And the book is adapted into a film. But two of my stories from my other book, kaki files have been converted into daily crime season one and season two. And some other stories are also being made into web series and films. So it's an ongoing process. I'm getting some more stuff which is likely to get converted into films. So let us hope for some more of my stories being adapted into films.

Michelle D'costa  38:51

Yeah, so even we hope for the day that you know, we see all of your stories adapted because they deserve to be. And so you know, many, for those of our listeners who don't know, you were actually in charge of the Nirbhaya case. So it's not just you know, your work with the BCCI. That's really commendable, but also being a daily officer, could you please tell us what was it like to deal with a case that had become a sensation, not just in India, but throughout the world?

Neeraj Kumar  39:17

I must tell you that was quite challenging. One part of the challenge was because had we not cracked the case, we would not know where to hide our faces. It was such a nasty case. So one was the cracking of the case. The other was facing the flak from the public, the media, the politicians, the government, and there as the chief of police, my job was to insulate my officers who were actually working on the case from those pressures and to take the brunt of that attack. I, myself, and that's what I did. I face the media, I face the crowds, I face the local government, and also the politicians. Everybody, the politicians were paying for my blood. They wanted me to be sacked. I said, Well, you can sack me, but I'm not going to quit. My job is to work out the case, to chargesheet the, to catch the use, charge them and bring them to justice. Insurance enough, we managed to get them all the tools hand, as you know, it was the most challenging case on my career. But there have been many others where the difficulty quotient in working out the cases were far higher than they were in India. But I must say that that kind of pressure from various sources that was not there. So yes, you know, there was a unique case. And it happened towards the end of my career, the reputation that I'd earned to 37 years of my career as a police officer, was under severe threat. And by God's grace, I must say I came out unscathed. It's my reputation intact. That's it?

Tara Khandelwal  41:36

Yeah, I just can't imagine. So, you know, you've been under so many high pressure, cases, situations, and experiences. So how did the writing happen?

Neeraj Kumar  41:49

Lighting, as I've said, In the preface of my first book, it happened by accident. You mentioned Mr. Sands, Eddie, he had come to launch his book from bicolour to Bangkok. event was happening in a bookstore. And I had an invite from the publishers to come and be in conversation with him. And during that conversation, I must confess that I was rather harsh with him because I pointed out several errors in his book and told him that your book is factually incorrect in so many places. I also kind of pointed out the publishers. And I was far from Seville during that event. And I thought that they would never speak to me in his life. But to my utter surprise, the next day, he went to penguin headquarters, and then when those days was headed by Chiki Sarkar, and he told me that I came across a police officer yesterday, who has so many stories to tell, why don't do ask him to write. So she called me up and said that, we want you to write your memoirs. I said, Look, I don't want to write my memoirs, I can write about cases that I've investigated. And she agreed. And that's how my writing career started. And by God's grace, it was just ever since then, there has been no looking back. Di D for Dawn was my first book. It was followed by Kochi files, and then of course, a coffin crooked. So that in brief is how I got into writing.

Tara Khandelwal  43:51

And actually, I was going to ask the same question, you know, when we're doing research on you, when, for whatever we read, you know, why not write your memoir, as well.

Neeraj Kumar  44:03

So my memoirs are my cases. You know, I've told the story of my life, through my cases. And I wrote, right, I was born, it's also plays, and I went to salsa school, and this college and, you know, this is what happened. I don't find that very interesting. When compared to my stories, compared to my case. To tell you the truth, I'm a very private person, I don't like to talk about myself. I'd rather talk about my work.

Michelle D'costa  44:38

Definitely, I think your cases are just interesting as they go, you know, one after the other. So So despite all of this, you know, I would say high pressure cases, this harsh environments around you, I'm sure you will be doing, you know, things to sort of keep you sane, to you know, unwind, you know, so what are the books that you have read for fun?

Neeraj Kumar  44:58

I'm quite eclectic when it comes Reading I read all kinds of books. These days I'm reading a book called Nine Lives by William Dalrymple. I'm also reading summarization Korea's autobiography, memoirs of maverick. I like reading Kryon books. And then one of my favorites is a book you may not have heard of. It is called vengeance. By George Jonas, it is about a Mossad, the operation after the 1972 Olympic massacre at unique Olympics, how the Mossad went about seeking revenge. So that's one of my favorite books. So I read all kinds of books and I enjoy reading. I wish I could read a little more Confessions of a thug is another very interesting book. I strongly recommended to you so there are so many of them. Yes.

Michelle D'costa  46:08

Well, that's so nice to hear. So I'm pleased to share a picture of your study. We would love to share it on social media. Because those titles are just very, very interesting. Okay, um, so So this brings us to our second round in the interview. It's called a fun quiz. Okay, where I'll be giving you three options you will have to pick one if you had to pick one roll in the game of Cricket what would it be a commentator be wicket keeper. See? That's when a commentator

Neeraj Kumar  46:41

because I can't bat or bowl keep because to save my life.

Michelle D'costa  46:49

Okay, if you could visit one International Stadium, which would it be a the oval England be Melbourne Cricket Ground see Sydney Cricket group.

Neeraj Kumar  47:01

It means it means we can go out any day. Awesome. You hated

Michelle D'costa  47:05

this while working at BCCI a the people be the paperwork. See the food?

Neeraj Kumar  47:13

The people in the BCCI not the cricketers.

Michelle D'costa  47:17

Okay. One cricketer that you have admired for his integrity. A Sachin Tendulkar be Rahul Dravid. Say Sunil Gavaskar. Rahul grovelled, okay, the last one, one common thread that you have found during your time with the Delhi police and BCCI a corruption be the fight for justice, see sleepless nights.

Neeraj Kumar  47:42

Corruption. Oh, wow,

Michelle D'costa  47:44

I didn't expect that. Okay. All right. So this brings us to our last round, which is our rapid fire round. So Tara, why don't you go ahead.

Tara Khandelwal  47:56

Yeah. So in this round, you will have to answer in one word or one sentence. One word to describe your retirement.

Michelle D'costa  48:04

Fun. Nice. Okay. One author you admire for writing about the truth

Neeraj Kumar  48:10

is really

Tara Khandelwal  48:13

nice. What book are you writing next?

Neeraj Kumar  48:16

It's a book on my experiences as Director General, or jail.

Michelle D'costa  48:22

Oh, wow. Really looking forward to that. So one favorite punchline that you have heard time and again in your career as a cop?

Neeraj Kumar  48:30

Crime never pays.

Tara Khandelwal  48:32

Okay, one book you read to take a break from crime

Neeraj Kumar  48:37

easily PG Woodhouse. Nice.

Michelle D'costa  48:40

Lovely. Okay, so so that unfortunately resist to the end of this really, really enlightening episode. So I would just say that it was been a delight to speak to you. So because reading your book, it gave me much more courage than I had before. Definitely, when it comes to whistleblowing when it comes to just being just speaking your mind. So really, really happy that we got to speak to you, sir. And really looking forward to your next book. Thank you so much.

Tara Khandelwal  49:07

Thank you so much, sir. I'm looking forward to the next book.

Neeraj Kumar  49:11

It's been a pleasure talking to you, Michelle. And to you, Tara, and I hope we can someday meet and have a coffee together. call you up.

Tara Khandelwal  49:25

Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So love to hear more of your stories. Yes, sure

Neeraj Kumar  49:30

story. The police officers have plenty stories. stories within stories within stories, so you will find them very interesting.

Tara Khandelwal  49:48

So here we are, where the end of yet another journey into the many worlds of Books and Beyond with bound. I'm Tara Knievel.

Michelle D'costa  49:56

I'm Michelle D'costa. And this podcast is created by about a company that helps you grow through stories. Find us at round India or all social media platforms. So tune in

Tara Khandelwal  50:07

every Wednesday if you live, eat and breathe books and join us as we discover more revolutionary books and peek into the lives and minds of some truly brilliant authors from India and South Asia.

Michelle D'costa  50:22

And don't forget to keep your love for stories alive for books and beyond.