5.31 Ranjana Kaul: Why I Decided To Translate My Grandmother’s Book Into English

Imagine discovering surprisingly progressive stories from the 19th century, all written by your grandmother!

In this episode, we'll introduce you to Ranjana Kaul and her passionate endeavour to do justice to her grandmother's legacy — a trailblazing woman, who not only wrote but also fervently fought for women's rights. 

Join your host, Michelle, as she delves deep into the captivating accounts of how Ranjana serendipitously unearthed the stories and accounts of her grandmother. Laxmibai Abhyankar wrote short stories in Marathi, and Kaul, her granddaughter, painstakingly translated and moulded her work into an English collection called "Stepmother and Other Stories".

The collection highlights archaic customs and regressive beliefs, such as the mistreatment of widows and the denial of education to women.


Produced by Aishwarya Jawalgekar
Sound Edit by Kshitij Jadhav

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

Michelle D'costa  00:10

I'm Michelle D'costa.

00:11

And in this podcast, we uncover the stories behind some of the best written books of our time

Michelle D'costa  00:18

and find out how these books reflect our lives and our society today.

00:23

So tune in every Wednesday to enter a whole new world with a new author, and a new idea. Yes.

Michelle D'costa  00:30

And after three years and 2 million listens, we are back with our factories and five,

00:36

with hard hitting questions and life changing books.

Michelle D'costa  00:40

So let's dive in. Hi, folks, since I've been following women in translation month in August, I'm thrilled to be in the company of translator ranchera. Cole, who's actually a lawyer by day and she has translated a very special Marathi short story collection, which is called step mother and other stories into English for all of us. And the author Lakshmi by a banker is none other than her own grandmother, which I find really cool. But that's not the only special thing about her because she was an extraordinary woman who wrote and fought for women's rights. And she was old enough to rd which actually means a new thinker. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. And her stories actually take us back into this problematic times of you know, horse driven carriages to child marriages. And you know, these stories shed light on a time when things were on the brink of changing, you know, that's what I find interesting and, you know, especially to do with our outdated customs and beliefs, like you know, treating widows poorly, not educating women. And all these stories are actually set in rural villages with such colorful characters for driving these, you know, each story from narrow minded mothers in laws to progressive and loving husbands to intrusive neighbors who enjoy gossiping all day. And these women protagonists defy traditional norms by you know, wearing western clothes or taking care of a person who irrespective of caste, you know, or even studying further to pursue their ambitions. So join me in welcoming grandma Lakshmi by his granddaughter to understand more about how her stories changed regressive mindsets in the late 19th century. Welcome, Ron. Jana,

02:24

thank you so much delighted Michels to finally meet you in person, beyond the emails of our own times modern communication. But yes, for me, my Goodness me. It's been a journey of self discovery. It's truly expanded my mind.

Michelle D'costa  02:42

Yes. And that's what we got to find out. You know, what exactly did you learn from this whole process? And I actually read that your grandmother was way ahead of her time, her progressive outlook was deeply influenced by her own grandfather, who was actually among the early pioneers of the nerve Motwani social movement, right which actually rejected all the traditions and prevalent customs which subjugate women. So can you please share an anecdote of your grandmother's relationship with her grandfather and how that was pivotal in shorter shaping her thinking and her writing.

03:16

Her grandfather was a personality in the middle 19th century. These are the first generation English educated in India. And you had stalwarts like him, which is Gopal Hadid. They spoke they called him locate the body. His view on the subject was that without the emancipation of women, and the disadvantage in those days, what you call caste, those that are adversely affected by their birth. So disadvantage, India could never achieve the potential of political freedom without the emancipation of women and the disadvantaged. We are still struggling with it. And this is something that hit me in order to sort of right in the middle of the forehead to think that this is his time was mid 1850s. Her time was late, you know, 1888 8990. We know around the turn of the century and the early part. I am in the 21st century. What's happened? I mean, what is happening is a question I asked myself, you use the term nerve mcquoddy. Now number two, it was for two reasons. People with new ideas, first that they were seeking social transformation, through emancipation, to education, together with political reform, stalwarts like Jyotiba fully and savitribai Fully Working for the disadvantaged their own social ecosystem emancipating them through their education in English language. And the third was those that focused only on political independence and did not in fact, a post social transformation involving emancipation of women and disadvantage. Those were the three parallel sort of happenings, movements of those times. Now, of course, you've heard the name of justice, run a date, what they were doing is to first and foremost, reform their own community. All of the stories that she's written about her own community, the aim of the exercise was that you must first individually absorb in your mind, that transformation, you can do it one step at a time, that's not a problem. So human nature is progression. But you must do it and implement it in your own home first. Home would consist of father, the patriarch, the mother, the matriarch, the educated, or the uneducated son, the educated or uneducated daughter, daughter in law. Each one is a hero. And I imagined that given the fact that they were looking at all the pernicious customs, and the traditions, and the orthodoxy, that entire package seemed to be focused on women. And the now North body evaluated each one of these on the basis of rational and scientific meter, and rejected it on those grounds. Not that oh, this is old fashioned, let's just check it out. But that there is no basis for it. I imagined in today's modern English, you would call them rationalists. Not a very popular species presently. So well, luxury by is, you know, completely absorbed with her grandfather and so forth is because she spent a lot of time in Pune in that they smoke water that was her home. Her own father was amongst the first from the Bombay presidency, to join the ICS, the covenant service of India. So he was a collector in sin in Hyderabad, meaning which now, and she went to school there. But then because she was very keen on languages and ancient languages, and learning and poetry, and so forth, so forth. She had private teachers. So what it is, is that she has this enabling ecosystem in her own home. And she's influenced on the top of it, because she was spending a lot of time in the Smoky Mountains in Pune, whenever her father was posted there and happen to also marry somebody who was also committed to number 30 was a lawyer, and in fact, encouraged it. And of course, if the mother was an opening up a struggle and a fight, then she may not have done it with the same she or she returned again, may have, but clearly there was no opposition there. Because everybody in that family was up to speed. And while she completely took to it also, because she was now encouraged by her own circumstances after marriage, she seemed to have a tremendously active public life. For me, it came as a serious shock. I can tell you that Michelle, I couldn't believe it. I thought this was

Michelle D'costa  08:40

why was it a shock?

08:42

I mean, when I met my grandfather, mother, she was pretty old. Actually, her mother, my great grandmother was a very strictly, ramrod stiff, sort of a lady used to hold her hand and walk. So when I found this little booklet in 67, I was in school and I was visiting suddenly house, a garage, and suddenly, when my parents saw my grandfather, being a lawyer, you know, if you read the Great Expectations, you know, the description of Miss Havisham home. So it was that suddenly house was like Mr. Havisham. So that is to say, the offices and the library and all that my grandfather was exactly the way it would have been on fourth of April 1935. Nobody had touched anything. And in the bedroom where I was sort of, you know, running my finger, or these fat, my ambition always to be a lawyer, so as running my finger, you know, down the spines of all these books, and suddenly, it touched a skin booklet. And I took it out. And then I read the name Lakshmi nyata Naomi in Marathi meets sister. And my father, I remember, vaguely, I remembered my father saying, you know, she used to write under the pen name, pseudonym. That should be tonight. So I took that booklet to him and I said What are these? What is this thing? Then he started telling me all about her. Ballistic to him and I'm thinking No, no, no, no, no. Anyway, I left the book where it was. But in 1975, I went back to the Sunday she had passed by then the books, of course, are where they were. And this time I went to collect my grandfather's papers, because I had started doing my PhD on the popular movements in the princely states. And he was a pioneer for the deacon, Deacon stage, meaning that the subjects of princely India demanded a Bill of Rights and representative governments under their own rule under the Indian ruler. They did not support the colonial

Michelle D'costa  10:50

British. Yes. So

10:53

I knew all the papers were there. So I had originals waiting for me. And I brought this little booklet back as well. Many years past, I got married, I came to Delhi with my seven eight trunks full of papers. I had no clue how you should get started. Because, you know, people need to be collated. They need to be indexed. They need to know I didn't know where to start and what to do. And a chance meeting, well, not a chance meeting but met my husband's colleague, who said that you have to be completely you're, something's wrong with you. Why are you sitting on all these people? Do you not know how valuable they are? I said, No. So he's no, no, no, this is this is rubbish. I mean, you have to go and meet the director of the Nehru Memorial, the foremost sort of Research Center for Contemporary India. And you have to give these papers for them. Right, so he fixed up a meeting, I went to meet Dr. panigrahi, who heard me out, didn't say a word got up, brought a file out of his cabinet and said read this show, they were trying to trace gr a banker papers for over a decade, almost two decades. And they had written to every possible Avianca they could find. And he said, I cannot believe that they are in Delhi, sitting in trucks in your house, as it please. I gave it out today, of course, the personal collection grm data personal collection, and I have donated it to the library. And they're available for researchers, you know, the laminated microfilm, all of that. But in that trunk went that little book as well. So when they took all the materials and after about a month, they said that you know, the tanks are now empty. And we have one book which we found which is not part of the collection. So I said fine. So the sent the trunk and the book back. So now this time around the little book found me

Michelle D'costa  12:52

what what an origin story I have to add like it's one of the most fascinating origin stories. Ripley's Believe

12:59

It really writing of this little booklet printed in 1914 or 15 by ARIA Bhushan sitting over there, I see it in 67, bring it back in. And in 7879, it comes back to me. So it was with me. And in due course of time, I thought that maybe I should read it now. So I did. And I quite like those stories, but I wasn't sure of the quality because I am you know, I schooled in deady even though I'm a mirage, you know, schooled in Divi. So this means that I have not had formal classroom instruction in the Marathi language. Yeah.

Michelle D'costa  13:44

And that and that's exactly what I want to ask you next, which is I mean, I find it fascinating. You know, usually when we think of translation, we think we need to master the language, obviously, right? You need to know the language to a certain extent in order to translate it. And you didn't know Marathi, right, because you grew up in Delhi and so to speak, yeah. To translate. Yeah, to

14:07

translate, no question about it. So in due course of time, over the years, of course, I finished school and college and Bombay support, support all of that. And I wanted to do law to finish my BA in 71. So my parents in Pula, by then my father was posted in Pune. My father was in the Indian Army. So my parents they said, so what do you want to do now? You're going to finish your BA. So I should have joined government law college in Bombay. Okay, why I say but you know, I want to be a lawyer. I wanted to be a lawyer like my grandfather. Not that I'd seen him but I just did. So what kind of law will you do? I said, Well, I want to do criminal law and then I want to do international law. I had no idea what a tectonic impact that had on my mother. My father was pretty ambivalent. By the time I got back to Bombay, the first and foremost, I got a call from my cousin who was a leading appellate lawyer in the Bombay High Court. And he said, you know, how are you you're back from holiday this and that. Why don't you come and drop us come in and see us? I said, yeah. So I ended up sitting in his living room in the drawing room. And after either rudaki, but then he said, So what do you want to do? You will soon finish ba What is your plan? I said, I'll join garbage law college. He said why? It's okay to do law. He said, No, no, it's a useless profession. It's up to you or a lawyer. He said, No, no, with me, it's a different matter. I kept quiet. My sister in law sitting and smiling. So he said, you know, you don't do Did you? Did you see when you were coming in all those fellows? Did you see their faces? I hadn't seen anybody. So I kept quiet. He said, No, no. Did you also see my fight? They're full of dust and cobwebs and all this. But if there were no fights, it says how sad is living. So I said, you know, have you spoken to my mother recently? So the conversation ended. Okay, fine. So now she's using sabotage, or whatever. Next, after a couple of weeks, there's a phone call in I used to live on Marine Drive in the women's students roster. So there's a phone call in the superintendence, on the only her office. And then my uncle, the Chief Justice of the Bombay High Court. That is very unusual. Anywhere when there and he said, then what is this your cuckoo? You say? Where is she where she managed to not come? So I should have said, I'll come on Sunday. So no, no, you come to my office. And we'll go together. So bogged down from Elphinstone to the High Court. And after telling me about the luminaries that had practiced in that building, then we what do you want to do after be? So by then? No, I said Takaka. What do you think I should say? You

17:07

go back to Pune. What should I do in Pune? Join the university. What should I do in the university? Oh, you do your ma.

17:20

What subjects or you have to pick and choose you have a choice. You can do political science. You can do history as you know, why don't you tell me do me history. I noted, however, that he didn't say join local rich Buddha.

Michelle D'costa  17:34

That's what I was waiting for.

17:36

I was I made a note of that. So I said Now clearly, this law is a big issue. Anyway, I went to Pune. And I joined the University. And you know, for me temperamentally, if I decide that okay, fine, this is what I have to do. I do it. Two years later, I topped the university. So of course, he my uncle, my dad had retired was in his not poor house with the guiltiest of all so he drove down from Napa. By lunchtime he was in our house and in my dad, he said coupe mg. Last Murthy. I'm going to take you out for lunch and buy you one Saudi for 1000. Wow. Look, this is in 73. So I should cut I'll come for lunch with you. But it'll have to be two studies, but 1000 Teach isn't okay. But I also you know, my fear in my mind was that my mother was going to plot and plan these Tea Party types. Why did she want me back in Pune in the first place? I mean, what was I going to be doing? But she didn't do anything of the sort. I was not put through any adverse is cruising along in my normal style, doing whatever I wanted.

Michelle D'costa  18:53

But this is this is where you learn Marathi, right when you actually

18:57

show after I finished Ma? Since I had taught I had a job offer from all the colleges. Oh, yeah. So I thought very carefully about the whole situation. And I said, Well, your college thinking that no problem I go and lectured in English. I didn't want to join Ferguson and SP and all this sort of, so anyway, I did. And on the very first day when I went to call on the principal's to sort of you know, take the attendance. So Professor RH got get and it was at 715 in the morning. So he said come on up Bianca your first lecture will always be Marathi. I see Marathi media. Do you have Marathi media? Of course all colleges have oh and first lecture is always multimedia. I simplify complexity in Marathi. How can I teach them British constitution? I can't lecture in Marathi. So he said tie a banker by Gucci Matra, Masha Hey, by Witched My friend like a rag and a rat and everything else that I could feel. And I said, No, no, I'll be there is cassava Yeah, happy this cannot happen. So I spent the next six months you can imagine that for about around a 1718 year old girl. Social Life means is a very important part of one's life. So that came to a halt. And every evening, I would sit and write out that lecture in English, then to the best of my ability, translate it in Marathi. Oh, whereas in English, I would have just gone and spoken, right all I needed to translate. I wrote it first in English, then I translated in Marathi. The best Thai code then gave it to my father who corrected the translation. And then I crammed it all night long to go and deliver it in the morning. So I thought that the best way to proceed is to be honest with the students. And I told them that I said, Listen to me, I have never studied Marathi. I know how to speak. And it is true that I finished school from St. Mary's, but I was exempted Marathi by the time I joined. So you have to teach me the pronunciation and if I'm making a mistake, help me with the with how to

Michelle D'costa  21:16

I would have never imagined the story that when I was reading up on your on your process and all of that I honestly thought that you know, you went back to Cooney just as a as a base and you sort of learned Marathi organically. And that's how you sort of, you know,

21:30

stated the Burrard, but all entirely unplanned. And I'm thinking, you know, now when I think about it, I think I must be mad. So I show in the shed that madam. True. I'm cheap on Earth. I know we have a condition. What's the condition? You teach us English? You help us with English? I said, Yeah, sure. Done.

Michelle D'costa  21:57

That's a nice bargain. Yeah. You know, this

22:00

went on very happily. And I learned all kinds of big words and all these kinds of things. And that's how my ability to be able to read the stories and the poem. There are 17 poems in that booklet, which I could not translate, because I don't have that level of Marathi. I understand it perfectly. But do you know the new inch of a poem, then you need that skill with it? And you need that with the words and the vocabulary? I don't have that. And I could not find anybody who could do it either. They said that, you know, this is very Sanskrit. I used Marathi. It is very structured and old, I said, doesn't matter. It's Marathi. I can read it, I understand. But can you translate but none of them that I spoke to include in Pune, showed that is how I translated bit by bit. But before I got my mother to read it, she said, these are very good stories, I got my aunt to read it, she said, brilliant, I wouldn't have expected it.

Michelle D'costa  23:04

That is that is I just, I want to add her, you know about how we sort of we understand our grandparents or you know, or like our loved ones, our family, with a certain lens, right. And sometimes you just can't imagine that they've lived a whole different life, from what you know about them. And I think for you, it's also very interesting, because it's not just a discovery of your grandmother, but also your self, I think you will learn so much self.

23:31

What you're saying is true, Brenda, I had not the foggiest idea about my grandmother, as a person. What, the fact that I knew everything about my grandfather, what he used to do, and everything about him, he was the person. I never seen him my father was about 17 when his father died, and I wanted to be a lawyer, like him. And our my grandmother. So I'm thinking sometimes that you know, maybe it is that men's lives are public, exactly out of the house and do stuff. And, you know, even if they're not alive, and if they have achieved and they have done something, the family is inspired or talks about, you know, women, they get lost.

Michelle D'costa  24:17

That is why I wanted to pick this book, especially, you know, an antenna, like I was saying, right, there are a lot of women in translation, but I really wanted to give this coverage because I felt this book sort of brought to the limelight, all those women we know because it's sort of like a domestic fiction if we can call it right. It's all these family dramas domestic fiction, yeah, that they have covered. And it's, it's all these women who work in the houses, right? It's always striving to go out of these houses and and we'll get into you know, details later. But what I want to understand from you is, you know, apart from love, and apart from this, obviously to preserve your grandmother's stories, you know, and and also now because it's in English, it's reaching a wider audience. What I want to do is what about this topic may do translate it you know for an audience of today right? For example, how can you contemporary woman in a city relate to the stories which are sort of set in the 19th century in rural Maharashtra, how did you envision the reception to be?

25:15

Let me tell you, they should not rural Maharashtra horror stories are spread across Bombay, Pune, not poor, rural Maharashtra across the important point of this this work is also that as much as you know, India is divided into the provinces, the British provinces, and then you had the princely states. Now, the princely states from the condition that, you know, so long as they were not doing anything to oppose the Paramount power, they could generally do what they felt like doing and mostly they were encouraged to go to Paris and London and have a blast, and they joules and all that kind of thing. But they don't, you know, have any this and they could govern their states the way that they could, or whatever they do. So, there was really nothing like a press, or a great deal of freedom or any encouragement that you had in the provinces, now, Bombay, Pune, and Bombay presidency. So we know a lot about women who lived and worked in the presidency. So whether it is Rama by Rana day, or whether it was Anandi by so she who's telling you about her struggles of how she came about, she got married, she was in a state, but when she got married, she came and changed it. In the President's in Bombay, show you we know a lot because you had the press, you had the magazines and Morocco and Big Gold were great centers for, you know, journalism and books and all kinds of things. My grandmother used to come to Pune. All her publications happened in Pune. Now the fact that she came from a very, very established family, basically, to the manor born type family, she had no difficult. So now her stories are not biographical at all, should not talking about her struggle, she had no struggle. But what the number 30 focus was that you must reform and then hold the hand of the next one. She has composed a poem only for this republication that our emotion did. And I think it's called so when I hit something like that I forget the exact name of it. In that entire set of stories and poems, this covering poem is the only place where I found two lines, which tell you about her family. One that my father as a child, taught me to hold the pen and write and educated me, and that I married such a cultured and wise husband, who said, don't stop learning and writing. That was her, the her persona. And she took to it and this was what every story says, You must get up and go and help UN experts.

Michelle D'costa  28:05

Yeah, team,

28:07

which I, which I was very impressed is the involvement of the wives of the North body leaders, the men who are now busy in the sort of promoting political reform and other important things, for example, education, now, education was a very big tool for them. And GK go clay Gopal Krishna votary was also of the same genre, he was member of the culture. In. Then still in Calcutta, he had moved and education bill to make Elementary Education compulsory for all, and to have a technical education center for only women. But the opposing side, those that did not want, you know, emancipation, shot that bill down in that assembly. And because I am myself involved with this education, I have great interest in early learning. In 2009, you know that India passed the Right to Education Act, that act in 2009, universalized education for all up to elementary levels at age 14 or 15. What go clear numbers party were trying to do. He had moved a bill in 19 105. And other way now, Raji had also supported and spoken of it in the British House where he was representing. But it's taken over 100 years for our country. So for me these connections and to think of where are we,

Michelle D'costa  29:51

where are we heading? Yeah.

29:53

And now from here, where are we going next?

Michelle D'costa  29:57

Exactly. Yeah, not exactly. That's way, you know, sort of as a as a young woman of today, when I was reading it, it was I was very conscious of the fact that there are people who have stood up for change, right. So there is a, the most of the characters in the book are very inspiring. Yes, while there are supportive men, there are also women who sort of are very headstrong and who know what they want, which I find very inspiring, because we know that see, now we are privileged, right? We do have now with the living. Exactly, you know, and with the internet with with so many things opening up, I mean, things have become easier, right? And why I mentioned Google Maharashtra is also because, you know, yes, even though there were, you know, certain societies, certain people who were privileged, it's also it's also a very small part of the community, right. But what I found really interesting, you know, apart from this rendre, is the fact that each story, right, though it is fiction, it actually is accompanied by a note, it's almost like a moral, you know, a lot of stories that you read as kids and and, you know, just for our listeners to give them some context, for example, in the very first stories, there's a daughter in law who's harassed by her mother in law, right. And this team keeps coming up in other stories as well. Right. So in the note, the author mentions that, you know, daughters leave their homes, you know, so at least in laws, the least they can do is make them comfortable, right, let alone harass them or torture them, the least you can do is sort of make them comfortable in an alien environment. And I didn't found that very interesting, because when I read fiction, when I read short stories, it's most most open, you know, you're supposed to gather any kind of interpretation when you read the short story, right? So I want to know why you think your grandmother included these notes. Like why was it apparent? Why was like, What was the need to make it really apparent, right? Because we don't often see this. And while you were translating, did you consider you know, not including the notes? Or did you sort of think they were very essential to the party? You know, well,

31:53

long years ago, my mother was telling me about my grandmother, in a, you know, she was her personality, she was tiny. I was kind of Amazonian, I'm sure. But I was kind of Amazonian. And she had a staff, and her whole body language and aura was very, if something which was magnetic, I would not describe her as beautiful in the same way as my mother's mother was. But there was something extremely, I don't know what I don't have an adjective for it, but you looked at her, you're not inspired to be naughty one bit. But you felt attracted, I felt I was always drawn to her, but I kept my distance because she had that. And my mother told me that, you know, what, he is a very practical lady. So as distinct to her normally. And she said that, you know, early in the marriage, you know, when she my grandmother had a couple of daughters. And she said that, you know, now you sit here with me. And we'd all have lunch together. So now these ladies and I, but you know, so and so the husband doesn't come? She said, No, no. You must be happy. When your husband comes home. They no need to wait for him. Because you don't know whether it'll be half an hour late one hour late. Something held him up. You don't know all that? Should this is our time to have a lunch, we will have a lunch. So first, she used to have a lunch quite early, then she would sit in so her daughter's in and chat with them and this and that. Why? Because the minute your husband comes, there's no need for you to be in a bad mood and say, Why is it taken? You sure? Why could you? Could you not send the boy to let me know?

Michelle D'costa  33:42

Yeah, that's, that's very smart, very considerate of her.

33:47

So when I read her authorial interventions, it's also because you know, the length of the stories is exactly as required for short stories in popular magazines. And the very fact that you have a household where many things are happening. Under the old mechanism. You had a widowed aunt or grandmother her hair was shaved off she wore maroon colored shoddy. You may have had a widowed sister, small little girl, you're going to you know college, so forth. Everybody living cheap to juggle, governed under different rules in your own home, but you're not seeing it. You're not recognizing it when this happens also in our modern times. Very often the mother in law is on one track. You're on another track. Nobody's trying to figure out a way how are we going to get along? Why am I doing this? Yeah, I especially like the story where there is the second wave saguna and she had this little five year old baby step

Michelle D'costa  35:01

mother. So it's Yeah, mother. That's where the tiger is

35:05

where the where the mother in law now getting jealous because that little Yamuna is yummy is Young is very much in love with her new IE, who's you know, she? And that authorial intervention she has where she's talking about women who gossip. And she says that you have to be careful about the words and what you say in front of children, and how that might affect them. Now, obviously, people are doing it without a care in the world. If all of us immediately knew that, oh, no, this this is not appropriate. You won't do it, isn't it? So for her ordinary Marathi reading in her reader, she's trying to point out to them that this is what is the problem for that little child and that little child gets upset and you know, she's with the Father and all this kind of thing. All that happened, but she's also giving I love that Leila tiny story donde la vida fashionable. Where the year is a dumb shit. It is true that my grandmother used her own circumstances. So that is Ebola and ungodly and a pedo road and Malabar Hill and all those sorts of things. But here is Lila who's completely obsessed with Western fashion. And with the Parsee ladies who nothing and she orthodox Brahmin, family girl is wearing socks and Kid leather shoes. When she reaches upon that cute when she reaches about yellow the very first time. Wow, I love this girl. But what she's saying is that not Western fashion is bad, or anything new is bad. She say you need to learn to have a balance. That has to be a balance. So I would say that that it is true. I mean, I have a daughter who is married, I will say that it is true for young people. Now also, to say that I don't I'm not going to learn anything about housekeeping. I'm not I don't want to know and this and that. And I used to tell my daughter I didn't know the thing is or all your brilliance I despair for you. That just ring me up and say you know that Dr. yellow doll that No, no, no, no, the one with the mediums. saying, you know, don't please don't call me up. What is this? And I'm thinking that all of these look, women have to play many parts in your age. And your times the husband will probably participate to a large extent maybe foodie. But nonetheless, at the end of the day, that home is your kingdom. When you say I'm houseproud then it means something. These are realities of life. So super. I mean, they're super beings. Exactly. Yeah. Just don't stand the narrative here.

Michelle D'costa  38:13

Yeah, no, that's what in your stories, that's what I realized, like, like it was she sort of shown women in a light that they can do everything and they can sort of carry it with grace, right? That is, that's the beauty of balance. Yeah, and men, because you know, we are talking about grace, I want to talk about one story, which is my favorite, actually, it's called the educator, son in law, and where where we were, I really liked that, because she sort of and the note in this story is, you know, friends, please do not be BITSAT be dazzled by wealth, you know, it's more important to find a person who cares for you, you know, than the sort of, you know, being blinded by all of the jewels, all of the wealth that he has so so just for context for our listeners. So what happens in the story is, you know, this woman gets married, married to this man and, and at first, you know, she didn't send something off, she's very happy that she's sort of married into a rich household. And, you know, obviously, she has servants, she has everything that she wants. But what she finds out eventually, is that her husband is not somebody who can keep that wealth, I found that concept very interesting. And just being rich is not enough. But knowing how to manage your wealth is absolutely more important. And just character sort of gets carried away, you know, with with anything, and there are people who take advantage of that, right. So he gets into, he cheats on his wife, he sort of gets into gambling, and then it just goes downhill from there.

39:33

While there is a court case, yes, exactly. I was like how,

Michelle D'costa  39:37

you know, there was so much drama. I said, Okay, what next workplace, but what I liked in that story is she sort of there's a juxtaposition between another couple and to just see that even though they are not probably as well off, but they are happier, right? Because that's it's more of a match of minds. It's more of a match of values than to do with just let's see somebody status, right. So could you please tell us You know what inspired this particular story? Roger, is it something that you sort of wanted to warn young girls against sort of, you know, falling for all these riches? Or, you know, is it? Is it something that was sort of an a norm? Or was it like, did you sort of see a pattern that you thought of she wanted to highlight?

40:17

Look, firstly, she was blessed with the fact that she has tremendous intellectual compatibility with her own husband. And as much as she had a foundation, in her own father's home, she was married at the age of 14. And her trajectory, you know, just that photograph, which is in the book, she was around 40, in her very early 40s. Now, that situation of her, you know, this business of marrying and best, it is a standard operating procedure to this very day. Kim here, check on Danica hair, Kata pitango. You know, TK All right is not as educated as you, I have a member of Women's Commission. And I can tell you that the number of girls who are educated in that case, those that came to the commission, will usually a BA, the girl had done ba the father of the boy or somebody or three shops, and the boy had dropped out of class 10. And then it didn't work intellectually. Because after the first excitement is over, what do you talk about? What do you talk about? Where is the company who they don't meeting ground, but for me, the story on intellectual compatibility is that one on early marriage or adult marriage, you know Chandrika, who actually marries a wealthy man, who knows how to keep his money, obviously, because he even has a huge estate with a tennis court. And there's one car for her and one for all of that. But ultimately, her spirit breaks. Because try as she might, he does everything including arrange, you know, play tennis with him. It just doesn't meet, those minds don't meet and ultimately it breaks her spirit and she dies early. These are also facts of life. I mean, it's not Yes, it happened. It could happen here today with anyone. No, yeah,

Michelle D'costa  42:17

no. And I want to add to that, like, because out of personal experience, you know, and this is someone who you know, a friend who shared with me, for example, so she's from a business family, okay. And she said that, you know, Michelle, this is a thing that you you sort of want to marry into a status, which is similar to yours or higher, right. And she tried to explain to her parents that she is in love with with someone who's a salaried person, he has a job, he's doing well for himself. But that didn't matter. In their eyes, it was more like No, but you know, that's, that's not what's gonna keep you happy. 10 years down the line you need, you need family money, you need all money. And she she, you know, fought a very long battle with with her parents, and, you know, eventually Touchwood eventually, they ended up together. But I do understand that the struggle is not outdated. That's what I liked about these stories. Not very much, very much today's concern. And, you know, just to just to sort of add to that rendre, there's, as you mentioned, very recurring character in the stories is a widowed person, she's often a young girl, and you know, unfortunate circumstances husband passes away, but then everyone looks at this poor child, I would, I would call them child because in today's age, the child and they are children. And you know, everyone looks at them as if there's something wrong with them, right. And there's also a line in the book, which says they are not permitted to offer water to even the Tutsi and of course, in, you know, in Hinduism, we know it's a sacred plant. So what I want to know from you is, how did this taboo originate? And I'm asking, because, I mean, obviously, I am ignorant, I have not come across something like that. And especially as a Catholic, this is not what I'm aware of. So I really want to know, where did this start? And what do you see happening today? You know, and I would, I would like to add that today, we do know that a lot of people sort of look for dating options beyond 40, beyond 50. You know, let's say second marriages, or let's see, if there are widows we know that there are options now and that's happening. But what according to you has changed over time, and when did it originate?

44:21

Look, firstly, what has changed over time is the age of marriage. And yet, there are child marriages in the country. And it is part of people's tradition. For example, in the building where I live, there is you know, the electrician, so, he told me that he is his daughter is getting married. So I said are we you let me know when you go, I'll give a gift for her. So I said to what does she do and all that he said available the three May? So I sent the sweeping. So how isn't she underage? So he laughed. TSN sa Jota MRTP I said sa Jota camera club oh my god Wallach is actually JD. He's in the Navy Rome hamari her Mary fayrouz, Konkona Hoda, Hero Jackie and I'm thinking of these stories. The point is you can have a law. But where it is deep rooted so you know Lakshmi by is trying to get reform in her own community first, every one of us needs to address our own community and its problems. For a large part, it will be the shame all parents saying, My daughter should get married to absolutely the top class family, all mothers saying my son should marry the top classical. That is natural. That is not wrong. But to take it to a point where you do not you educate your daughter or son but do not give them the

Michelle D'costa  45:54

freedom of choice? Yes.

45:57

What is the point of this education? What is what you know, you were talking about this friend who's maybe of modest means of support. For me, I saw it as the rise of an educated professional class of people who have become professional in context to become a lawyer or a doctor or something like that, where they want to earn money renown status on their merit, which contrasts usually with these, you know, wealthy people with estates and all that either, was squandering and womanizing or just completely in their own realm. Yeah. But for me, the funny one was this business of playing tennis. There's that story in which he plays tennis. Now I'm thinking, Where in Sangli, could this this situation be happening? And I had no answer to it until this year in March. So I rang up my nephews and I said, Listen, I'm looking for a picture of Ota, but she needs to be younger. I've got some pictures of her when she's done shoulder show. He said, Okay, I think I'll go and check up and so he sent me this photograph. So I said, why we it is looking great. Now I have an old photograph of the day on which he got married to my grandfather. So I was trying to compare whether this lady and that lady are the same. And I recognize all the same jewelry, you know, she's wearing exactly the same thing when she got married that she was wearing in that photo. So he said that, you know, his grandfather, meaning my father's younger brother, he said, you know, he's remembered more to his mother like this. So I did some rough calculation, you know, he's a this thing, that thing, and I figured that she would have been around 40 or so around the time that she would have been in the top, sort of gear of her entire career. So that tennis, he told me, he said, and he didn't know that I was perplexed, because he's not read the study. He said, You know, she used to play tennis with Ronnie Satsangi. I said, What? She could play tennis. mukhang Bucha used to play tennis with other. Okay, so then the penny drops, then this story comes from there.

Michelle D'costa  48:25

So I just I Yeah, and I just wanted to ask you, because I probably the tennis part was the most shocking. But my next question was, what was the most shocking thing that you learned during your research? You know, because and another question, as a follow up is, why do research when you're literally translating the work? Right? Like, what was the part of I will say, What was the need for the research? And how did you sort of incorporate that in these stories?

48:49

So what it is, is that the stories are full of conversation. They full of conversation conversations. So now in order for me to be able to discern my personal thing, then I must have a context to that conversation. So when I noticed that this age 14 is recurring, then I said is that to do with age of consent, that I didn't know I'm a lawyer. So I did research on what was the first bill then I discovered that it was much earlier in the 18, late 1890s, when there was a case in Bengal in Calcutta, of this 11 year old girl who was married to a man who was 13. And in the morning, she was found dead of excessive bleeding. And there was a case it did not say rape, but certainly, you know, causing her harm injury. And it was it was I mean, it shocked the conscience, that this 11 year old child is dead of excessive bleeding. And then that is when that age was made to 12 and 14 came much after this story. Now I know that time when republication happened, which is around 14 1914 When ra Bhushan republished and the profits of the sale of these books, she gave permission to donate it to the, you know, the great Mara she curvy so don't location Conway was a pioneer and widow remarriage and widow education and it set up the not Balika ashram and three sections and stand in Pune. And it's a great many institutions under that. He was given the Mehrotra nine due course. So Mattia donated he and he will comrades and and they were sort of working on the same thing. So the proceeds were given there. And I found myself gifted a copy of GK goo, clays speeches. So I was running through that, and suddenly came across this precise speech, which he delivered in the Council on Education. And he's quoting suddenly, and saying that, you know, sososo, putting my grandfather, who established a municipality there, has achieved 100%, literacy, enrollment and literacy. And that is an example. And therefore, you know, we have to advance education for women, and they must be elementary education. So what that bill is a type of that speech in 19 105. Then I did further research and turned out that data by analogy, also, you know, in England was supporting the same thing. And then I did further research only to find that this bill was defeated by those that oppose the emancipation of women. That is, when I got the context, they were talking about how the self governance report should be because the bill had not yet been passed. For example, the modeling mentor reforms of 19 109 the conversation in one of the story they're talking about what kind of local self government government should there be? So what grind off

Michelle D'costa  52:08

the context before? Yeah, yeah.

52:12

So therefore, I

Michelle D'costa  52:13

did. Yeah. So for I think, as you as a translator for you to understand that word itself took a lot of research. Okay, now, yeah. Get

52:22

down to the best vocabulary to put in the mouth of these people. Otherwise, it's a blank translation without it wouldn't have had a live show later.

Michelle D'costa  52:35

Yeah, exactly. I think it's very, it's very interesting. So like I said, you know, it's not just knowing about your grandmother, but it's you your self discovery, there was a lot that happened. So I want to know, you know, especially about, let's say, the positive aspect, like, like we see there are a lot of antagonists in the story, the evil mother in laws, and, you know, there's jealousy, petty jealousy, all of that happening. We also see a common thread of supportive husbands, right, who despite their mothers regressive attitude, they encourage their wives to study pursue their dreams, and we know that your grandfather was also very supportive. So due to her own experience influenced these male characters, can you please give us like an anecdotal example.

53:16

So she was my grandfather, Lakshmi by horses, second wife, his first wife, and his mother had died in the plague. They've all in 1893 to 96 there was plague and famine, right across the country. And during this, you know, where there was segregation for segregation happening, you know, the dead from the barely alive type, segregation. He lost his wife and his mother, left behind them infant daughter, and his grandmother. When he came to Sangli, he was sent to Sangli. With his brothers, he had three younger brothers, and they were dispatched with the baby and grandmother and they set up home in Sangli food to get English education. So my grandfather is around 11 and the others were younger and his baby. So he got married to her. He was one that much older but at 14 when she married him, she arrived as a mistress of the the anchor house, which had one daughter, she already had this, the baby of whom she was a stepmother. My eldest was my eldest, Sofia calls that baby and she had four younger brothers, and she had a grandmother in law. Wow. Now this grandmother in law is told by my mother and my father, her name was Jackie by. And in these stories, mostly the lady she calls Janicki by a very understanding. It is a tribute to her own grandmother in law, who enabled her to get to The ropes at 14 Want to know about running hours. And especially if you come from a very privileged background and all that you probably know a little bit less than otherwise, you know, people might have known. So she her own experience was extremely warm and enabling all together. She was blessed. She was truly blessed, which is where I think she gets this whole thing of telling her daughters in law that listen, you come here. You haven't didn't have your lunch? Yes, yeah. No, you don't have to stay hungry for him.

Michelle D'costa  55:29

Yeah, no, it is definitely I think, I think for me, especially, you know, just reading about these fun family dynamics, because I love reading family drama. It was so full of drama. Right, like I said, and I think what I really liked was the relationships that she sort of focused on, right, even if like we said, the evil characters were aggressive and all of that. I think towards the end, she always aims for sort of a happy ending, I've noticed that that's sort of coming, coming full circle with them and sort of patching up, you know, with these characters. I didn't want to understand what was the kind of backlash that that you know, your grandmother must have received for writing these stories? Because we do know that at that point, it was quite progressive at that stage. Right. So did you sort of read upon the reception that it got and why did it work? Why did the work disappear after a point in Marathi,

56:19

though the thing is this that she launched a campaign against considering of women, widows in suddenly, and she was very vociferous, now she had her husband for a lawyer, so she was able to correctly position her language or everything. She had a lot of support with that, with the result that the entire barber community of Sangli had boycotted the banker house, which she had five sons. So as my father said, we used to sit and cut each other's hair, because nobody to cut our hair. But as far as what your question is, about having car Tartary you heard the name. He was vociferously against her. He wrote an article to say, Kona, hey, he loves me, chichi Rani, who is saying all that and threatened criminal case against her. She, of course, ignored the whole thing and carried on doing whatever she was doing. She's not the one to back down. So of course, there was criticism. There were sharp criticism to all the numbers bodies, and particularly where women are now stepping out to say this or that, and then they're writing and speaking and doing all of these other things. Of course she had.

Michelle D'costa  57:39

And so this is just a follow up to that. So while she's aware that there's a backlash, and yes, she must have been obviously found a good publisher of believes believes in her work, don't think that you sort of censor the kind of language or censor the kind of themes or topics anytime after the backline doubt

57:57

it? No, I don't think so. But you know, I have I have in that book provided alliteration of four points. And when I was writing that alliteration for this poem, which he calls plague, where there are these people who are under for segregation, barely alive, trying to rush to the Pune railway station to get on top of the carriage trains just to get away, to run away from the death of play to the safety of their villages. I was seeing in front of me the hordes of people who are walking when the lockdown happened. It was very moving the way in which she's written this and this was exactly what was happening there. In the first instance and trains and everything had been halted. They were walking, they died there they gave birth there but they walked hundreds upon hundreds of miles are koi behind Yara haga Angel right people stranded. What have we done? They still migrants who come into the cities for work yeah, they still poverty and there is still unemployment. What has changed? So these are very big issues these but then there's another alliteration that two points and that which I found fascinating. One is a word to one somebody called Naga Naga Joshi. Now this lady has completed a five year course of license eight in med medicine and surgery, but the unit could not do an MD But she must have done it in Bombay, presumably or Sassoon hospital, but actually become a doctor after five years of study. The next poem is her thoughts on seeing this young girl whose hair is getting transferred and she's a young child. And it's getting she's sitting silently, crying not knowing that this is the first initiation practice for lifelong widow, it breaks your heart. It's completely heartbreaking. So you see social reforms is always a politically sensitive issue. And as much as you might want social reform, the point is you have to bring it within yourself and your family and then one at a time, because politics has a way of getting into it.

Michelle D'costa  1:00:24

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Yeah. So you know, like, apart from your grandmother, because after reading this book, I'm, you know, sort of very, very interested in that time period, especially because I wasn't in India. So I grew up in Bahrain, in the Gulf. And of course, we I studied CPAC. So we had a very limited viewpoint, very limited scope of work, as you know, that history, geography, all of that, and I do want to read up more. So I'm curious to know, during your grandmother's time, were there other women writers who were writing in a similar space and worthy approaching similar themes? Or or did you sort of, in your research come across writers were writing different kinds of stories. And that female writer,

1:01:04

you know, I don't know, I'm not done the research on whether there were others writing short stories, I'm 100% sure that they would have been, they would have been women who are writers, but Therefore, many who are published in, you know, for example, work by Pandita, Ramabai, Ramabai, Rana de Anandi, Joshi, and many others, there are men who have written one of the defining books of that time is entitled porn I take on who is already listened, and that is my hurry neuron updates about child Beatles. It was, it's a factor. And you know, the great thing about our emotion press was that the number two bodies wanted to bring low cost publications of the great works. So then they would be available to every man in the street if

Michelle D'costa  1:01:58

he wanted, like, easily accessible.

1:02:01

So it only to the entire ecosystem. And like I said, where the men were going outside, and, you know, assembly make or whatever, whatever they were doing. The women were doing, these little ladies groups After organizing their homes and teaching them to you, I was reading one of the stories where they she's telling them about childbirth, and how, what kind of nutrition you need and what stuff like that, you know, basic things. Point is that when we many things happen in our lives. Either we get used to seeing it, or we might think that yeah, you know, it shouldn't happen like this. I don't know why she did. And we move on. Yes. They nothing that is different. The family dynamics are probably human nature

Michelle D'costa  1:02:50

is the same. It's Yes, yes.

1:02:53

Just because you lived 100 years ago doesn't make you feel modern, then at still not realizing this reorder problem here.

Michelle D'costa  1:03:01

Yeah, and you know, and these kinds of, you know, these small corals and these mother in law, daughter law have it, it sort of took me, you know, this flashback mode, because I'm not married, but when I travel by the local train, right to go to school work or to parent places, you know, you often your desk crowd around you, when you stand up, you know, you eavesdrop without intending to eavesdrop. And there are, you know, this is a conversation that I've heard again, and again, where a working woman sort of unit they're going to work outside whole day, and they are, you know, common complaint is I return home and then I have to face my mother. And I used to wonder, okay, how is this a situation even today? Right. And I think reading reading the stories sort of it feels very timeless, and it's kind of sad. But I do hope that that things change, because the book is meant to sort of change.

1:03:52

If my enjoyment to change, yeah, if there are regressive customs. Yeah, for sure. It is patriarchy. Yeah. But women need to change. Yes, yes, there is a story in one of these where she this girl is asking her mother in law, or whoever. But they don't Why is it like that? I mean, that we are not allowed to this and that but you know, we don't have to ask all this. The reshimo needs of the old time, they must have had a good reason. Why are you asking? That is also the parabola What is this? parampara

Michelle D'costa  1:04:25

Yeah. And it reminds me when r equals culprits in supporting the system can emit matriarchy, which is which is what I want to bring up because I recently watched current overs movie rocky or Ronnie and I didn't expect does it call rocky or Aniki? Prem Kahani. So it's, it's, it's, you know, like when I actually sort of wanted to know, I'm not wanting to watch the movie. When I went to watch the movie. I went with no expectations. And when I came back, it sort of made me really think about how Well, it's sort of you know, portrayed. Patriarchy, yes. But also matriarch. So there is a matriarch in the family who literally sort of, I would say, makes people, you know, act in a very regressive way. Right? You don't often think about that you think about patriarchy. Yes. But it is a woman who is sort of an I really liked. Yeah,

1:05:20

she props up. She props this up. And the other thing, which I definitely, you know, made a point or is that when the girl became a widow, she was packed up back to her parents home. In all these cases, she's backed up back to the parents home. The husband's family doesn't want to take responsibility.

Michelle D'costa  1:05:45

Yes, yeah. It's no value value after that. It's just very fair. She's

1:05:49

not to be a burden. I mean, you know, no requirement. And in her own home, which should be that ecosystem of protection and love and most ecosystem for every girl from birth to death. Yeah. What is this ecosystem? Really, really? I do say that, you know, your baby Delta, you know, the golden standard, isn't that? I find that I found that frightening.

Michelle D'costa  1:06:18

It is it is. Yeah, no. And you know, this. All these stories, sort of, as you said, we have a choice to either turn a blind eye or do something about it, right. Just not or,

1:06:29

apart from Byron Bechet. You're so

Michelle D'costa  1:06:33

insensitive that you don't notice. Yeah, exactly. Because because you think it's routine. That's what so I want to mention a short story. I'm not sure if you like reading horror, sort of short stories. But there is a there's a story by Shirley Jackson, which was it's an old story old classic story. It's called the lottery. And when and I usually teach this, in my creative writing classes, I love to discuss it because I felt it's a very good example. It's sort of shows you that society can do anything blindly, in the name of rituals in the name of customs, even if it is extremely disturbing, right. So, you know, I don't want to give spoilers for the story. But basically, what happens is that people innocently do things, they sort of thing, like, it's innocent, just because we have been doing this over the years, let's just continue doing it. And towards the end of the story, you are just sort of, you know, you're I was at least speechless when I reached the end of the story. It's very disturbing, by the way, it's a very disturbing end, and hence, I would call it horror. But basically, I think what even the writer was trying to say is that we humans can be really, really evil. And it's sort of disguise the evil acts that we do in the name of rituals in the name of customers without really thinking about it. And I feel that your book was a very good reminder for that is I learned so much. And I really

1:07:57

doing I learned a lot and because, you know, Michelle, I am involved with education, and I am involved with some NGOs that support education of underprivileged. It's a very hard life. It's a very hard life to begin with. Then on the top of that, you have all these stuff that holds you back, your own family will hold you back, I'm not able to understand how it's going to happen. And then yeah, you know, two steps forward, three steps back then again, two steps forward. And maybe you manage one step ahead. It's it's very unfortunate. And yet there is a lot of hope in those stories because those girls who really get on and who then finally reconcile there is hope it's possible yes, it's possible to move and yet when there are parents, who just simply now they realize it, but it's too late. That committing suicide

Michelle D'costa  1:09:01

Yeah, you often hear this in the news and it just shakes you from within like, like literally when a child you know, tells you I'm sorry, when your child tells you that you know, there's something off and I'm not comfortable here and and you know, and there's always this word compromise. I've always heard this sacrifice compromise marriage is meant to be a union where yes, I totally get it that any kind of relationship requires that there are also limitations to that, you know, and and the issue is that I think, you know, girls even though we are so progressive, we have reached a point where we make our own decisions. There's always this this feeling right, like like they say Lokahi although, basically that's what I think I think that's something we need to we really need to work on. But yeah, as you said, there's hope that these stories give you know give us hope. And And this brings us to the last round of the interview. Reginald This is a fun round. It's a rapid fire round. So you will have to answer in one line or one word, okay, one word to describe your grandmother's ambition. Towering. Okay, the biggest hurdle that you faced while translating her work.

1:10:15

In adequate skill of the language, I had to ask for dictionaries from my mother, even though I was pretty proficient after the one year college experience, but I didn't need and my regret is that I could not do the point. Right?

Michelle D'costa  1:10:30

Okay. If these stories could eradicate one social taboo in our society completely, which one would it be? Freedom of Choice. Okay, what character from the book that you wish you met in real life?

1:10:48

I don't know. The girl who played tennis Chandrika?

Michelle D'costa  1:10:52

Yes, I think you're I think you're really in love with her. Okay. One trait that you have inherited from your grandmother?

1:11:00

Like playing tennis. Lovely.

Michelle D'costa  1:11:05

Okay, what you be translating next?

1:11:09

Nothing. Okay, I am I'm informed. I mean, I learned from the obituary that was published by the circle, cousin center that she had, she had withdrawn from public life. But she had turned to philosophy and such likes that she has written her memoirs. And it's called Coffee, stochastic staycation some moments of happiness. So I imagine that would have been life with our husband or in our own family. I am told that everything that is ever published, one copy of it is sent to the National Library in Calcutta. Is that correct?

Michelle D'costa  1:11:50

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Yeah.

1:11:52

So if that is that be the case, then perhaps Perhaps it's that. And if we should find each other, then I will translate that,

Michelle D'costa  1:12:03

oh, I really hope that happens. Because I feel I feel with this book, you've managed to sort of like you know, resurrect the story. Like I said, we did hidden and like you said, women's lives and we do on this podcast, we also covered a lot of books, where were the sort of bring these women to light right, like so big era McCarthy, Manu, Pillai, all of these historical fiction writers who bring all these women from Indian history forward. And I think this book also does the same. So I really hope that you do translate more of this work. But thank you so much for this conversation run tonight made me think a lot. And it really, really struck my conscience that you know, like you said, you know, help yourself, it starts with home, it starts at home, it starts small, but also help you know, the people around you. Thank you so much.

1:12:50

It's been a delight. And thank you, thank you so much for inviting me.

1:12:55

So here we are, where the end of yet another journey into the many worlds of Books and Beyond with bound. I'm Tara coneval.

Michelle D'costa  1:13:03

I'm Michelle D'costa. And this podcast is created by bound a company that helps you grow through stories. Find us at sound India are all social media platforms. So tune

1:13:14

in every Wednesday if you live, eat and breathe books, and join us as we discover more revolutionary books and peek into the lives and minds of some truly brilliant authors from India and South Asia.

Michelle D'costa  1:13:29

And don't forget to keep your love for stories alive for books and beyond.