5.30 Ameer Shahul: How a Global Corporation Poisoned Kodaikanal

How would you react if you found out that your employer was poisoning you and your community with a deadly substance?

Join your hosts Tara and Michelle as they unravel the astonishing story of "Heavy Metal: How a Global Corporation Poisoned Kodaikanal" by journalist Ameer Shahul. Prepare to be drawn into a world of courage, corporate recklessness, and the battle for justice.

In this episode, you'll hear from Ameer Shahul himself how he uncovered the horrifying facts about the mercury contamination, how he joined forces with Greenpeace and the local workers to launch a campaign against the company, and the challenges he faced to publish his book.

This is a podcast episode you don't want to miss. It will inspire you, anger you, and make you think. Tune in now and find out why "Heavy Metal: How a Global Corporation Poisoned Kodaikanal" is more than just a book - it's a movement.

Tune in to the riveting world of corporate accountability and environmental justice.

Movies & Shows mentioned in this episode : 
Chernobyl – Dir. Johan Renck
Qala Dir – Anvita Dutt Guptan
Erin Brokovich – Dir. Steven Soderbergh 
Minamata – Dir. Andrew Levitas

Produced by Aishwarya Jawalgekar
Sound edit by Kshitij Jadhav

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

00:06

Welcome to Books and Beyond with bound. I'm Tara Condell. While I am Michelle D'costa. And in this podcast, we uncover the stories behind some of the best written books of our time, and find out how these books reflect our lives and our society today. So tune in every Wednesday to enter a whole new world with a new author, and a new idea. Yes, and after three years and 2 million listens, we are back with our factories and fire with hard hitting questions and life changing books. So let's dive in.

00:44

Hi, everyone. On today's episode, we get into a David versus Goliath story where ordinary citizens fight a global corporation for a right as basic as health. And we are going to be talking to a journalist who has written Heavy Metal, how a global corporation poisoned Kodaikanal. So he was accused of dumping a lot of mercury in Kodaikanal and making the environment very toxic. They had set up a factory for producing thermometers. And one day when Navruz moody renowned environmentalist was on the lookout for some modest furniture for his cottage. Little did he know that he would chanced upon a big pile of glass with mercury dripping from them in this warehouse, and it was just lying there in the open under no supervision.

01:35

And obviously, he sensed that something was off. And so when he asked the shopkeeper and it dug around for more information, he came across a larger problem, the waist had reached far and wide. And for those of you who don't know, Mercury is very, very harmful. So the workers were working in this factory that was making thermometers and Cody had been experiencing really very severe health issues. And none of them were informed about the health hazards on me exposed to mercury. So let's find out who won this war Hu l o Kodaikanal. salamin. himself. Welcome, Amir. Thank you. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you, Tara. The story of Kodaikanal is a story of modern environmentalism of India, as you would have seen through my book, in fact, travels through environmental history of India from 1980 Till date, you know, as Kodaikanal stands today, this is probably the biggest environmental disaster which happened in India to the Bhopal Gas Tragedy. There's been many ups and downs in the campaign. Overall, we've lost almost about 100, people record numbers about 28. And damage to the core system. In a pristine illustration, like Kodaikanal, to the extents of almost about 20 tons of mercury being dumped over their entire into in the soil in the surroundings, the damage is still out there. And it's not probably going to end for many, many decades, and probably for a century at least. So that's the situation we are in. Thanks, Amelia. And I think we all got to know a little bit more about, you know, what was happening with the viral YouTube video. But I was very interested in your journey, you are an environmentalist yourself. And you actually came across the story, and you've been following it for a while. You wanted to actually take a break from a hectic schedule that you had as a journalist, and you went to visit Kodaikanal and saw the mercury dump yard. And that's when you joined Greenpeace. So can you tell us a little bit more about your involvement in this story? How that came to be before we get into the specifics? Yeah. So you know, in my own journey, Kodaikanal campaign has three different phases. First, as a journalist when I was a journalist in Delhi, working for an international news agency, I chanced upon a press release from Greenpeace and started digging deep into that, which took me to Kodaikanal look around for people who were the victims end up speaking to the workers in the factory environmentalist in the local community who are working against the company. I mean, on the on the campaign. That was the first part. The second part of it was, I joined in Greenpeace and walking into campaign, you know, shuttling between Greenpeace office in Bangalore and Kodaikanal on a weekly basis, spending a lot of time with the local community, the victims, the workers, the ex workers and the local environmentalists dealing with the regulator, the state pollution control board, factories, Institute and many other agencies coordinating with international agencies, Greenpeace or

04:45

air for some of the NGOs who were involved in it that that probably, you know, extended almost about two plus years. And then the last part of my involvement was as an observer, you know, so because of my

05:00

In a relationship built with the community and ex workers, I kept

05:06

a close watch on the issue till 2020, when the issue was almost kind of coming to a closure, so this in three different phases gave me immense knowledge on the topic in year 2020, I thought that it should be documented for the purpose of future generations. And also to give proper documentation of what happened in the issue for the last 20 plus years. Yeah, no. And you know, what, what really struck me as the most shocking thing is that this was something that wasn't informed to anybody who's working there, right. And we know that that was problematic, because, you know, everyone would love to sort of have a job to, you know, keep you going all of these people in Kodaikanal, they treated it as a blessing. They treated them as their local, you know, their guardian, they they sort of, you know, revered the organization, because nobody ever told them that it, you know, this could be basically live threat, right? So I'm more interested in knowing that could this entire tragedy been avoided, right, because we do know that, let's say, you know, the initially, when they set out, they wanted to sort of get rid of all the waste in their own premises in a very safe way, right. But this is not what happened, the waste went out of control, it started being spread, started being sold to a lot of people, and it went far and wide. And this is something that has really struck my conscience because I remember while studying MBA we had CSR is a very big part of our curriculum. And we were often told to think of different initiatives and different ways in which we could make a difference, you know, and this just made me feel so helpless. So I want to know, from your experience, I mean, how do you think this could have been avoided, of course, he will, has the responsibility has a lack of accountability, which which should have avoided the interior fiasco. But more than it should? Well, I would say that the regulator failed, you know, as citizens, we rely on the regulator to conduct the businesses in a manner which is provided in the statutes in the legislation. So we'll just framed in our country, unfortunately, in this case, and in and you will see that pattern in many other cases across the country, that the regulator fails hugely, immensely. And that leads to this kind of catastrophes, we, as citizens or taxpayers, we certainly don't have any great expectations, or or, you know, the companies don't have great responsibility, because the citizens and the companies as you would, as you would know, they are their mandate to to make profits and good companies make profits in a manner that is sustainable. But, you know, bad companies, they don't they don't bother about the environmentally sustainable profits. So, therefore, what we have as the Guardian says, as the safeguard mechanism is the regulator and the regulator's job is to ensure that these things don't happen and in the case of productional, what we have found is we have entrusted the regulator with certain responsibilities to ensure that this should not happen and regulated in a totally failed, which is the same case which you would find in many of the industrial catastrophes, which is happening around the country and over a very long period of time. So, why why does the regulator failed? So, you know, the regulator failed on multiple accounts. One, I think this is a hazardous material Mercury is a hazardous material, some forms of the mercury is even even a radioactive you know, it's as per the rules as for the statutes, it is classified as a hazardous waste and hazardous waste has a set of hazardous waste handling procedures in India. And that has a set of rules I think these rules are to be implemented by the regulator and for every piece of hazardous waste which is coming into the country or going out as a finished product, there is a mechanism to Track Trace and then report if that procedure has been followed by the regulator strictly over over over the period of these incidents and I think this incident this should not have happened, the mercury was going out of the factory as waste as glass waste, and the mercury waste was also being dumped onto the reverse side on the screen side on behind the factory and it is going out to the scrap dealers and it has traveled far and wide as as far as my sewer bank load, it was being the waste crap, the scrap glass with mercury was being used in making lamps and lights, marbles, which has been played by children. So all kinds of things. In addition, the mercury was getting evaporated into the atmosphere, almost about 20 tons of mercury was evaporated into the atmosphere over over over 17 years. So this was happening and it was happening in the in the in the in the knowledge of the regulator and the regulator totally failed to prevent it. That's why I said you know, the dependence we gave it to the regulator was not fulfilled by the regulator in this case.

10:00

No, we, as citizens, especially the people of Kodaikanal, are feeling the brunt of that, you know, just hearing about the kind of, I would say the amount of mercury that was there around them reminded me of the scene from the movie color, where you know, a mother tells the daughter to never use a thermometer, while placing it on the tongue to check for temperature, right. And this is something you know, I would say many of us didn't know, growing up, you know, we would just normally use that to check your temperature. But apparently, it's really toxic, and it could actually harm your voice. This kind of devastation is beyond imagination. But you know, coming to the heart of your book, I feel it's the people, it's the ones that have been affected. And the main protagonist, if we can call him that is negros moody, who is actually a renowned environmentalist. And he was, you know, like, ordinarily walking about looking out for furniture for his cottage. And then he touches upon this pile of glass with mercury dripping from it, I didn't how many people would actually pay attention to that, maybe they would pay attention, but then they would move on. But that just kept haunting him. And what he did was that was sort of the trigger. And that began his investigation, and his determination to sort of, you know, bring down the antagonist, which was, he will in this case, and in his struggle, the most significant predicament was actually gathering the local people to protest. Why because like I said, earlier, they treated this organization, as you know, sort of this Guardian, and they would just not cut they couldn't even imagine going against them, right living in a small town, everyone knew someone or another who's working for the same company. So how did Navroz Modi actually managed to gain their trust and convince them because we see in the book that from getting zero people, he managed to get around 400 People who agreed to protest and who actually marched and protested. We I think, it must have been a great challenge. I was in part of the campaign at that point in time when the initial protests happened. But I'm sure whatever I heard from Kodaikanal. And from Mr. Modi, it's been a great challenge for him to rally people around him around the cause. And on the issue, you're right, absolutely, the dependence of the local people on the factory was so huge, nobody wanted to do anything, even even very minimal against the company. It was a you know, totally a daunting task for him to convince the people but I think he, what he did is, he initially staged a protest in front of the scrapyard, very, very few people, actually, probably none of them from the factory join, none of the workers joined at that point in time, maybe some, some people have moved out of the company, I think that actually, you know, sent the message out that you are living with something very dangerous. And within few days, the regulator at that point in time very specific period of that time, was very active with the with a very strong leader called Sheila, Ronnie Chung, that was the chairperson of the board. So the regulator sent a team of engineers and the scientists to examine the place and examine the scrap yard and then seal the scrap yard. So when they came in, when they did the investigation, and then they found that there's almost about some five tons of mercury waistline there, and seal the scrap yard, the people around that got a feeling that this is something big, bigger than what they were initially thinking. The second part was, the regulator took a decision to move this waste from the scrap yard to the factory, you know, the regulator obviously had to, you know, follow the protocols, they come with the hazmat suit and drop, you know, the equipment, which is, you know, measuring the mercury levels are very, very minut level. And that's when the people realize that, oh, this is something, you know, really dangerous. And we haven't been aware of that. This is how this, you know, this material, you know, has to be dealt with, not the way we know, we were dealing, you know, some of our workers were dealing in the factory with the bare hands, that's kind of your change the mind of the people to great extent. And, of course, they know, the nurse Modi being a local, he started going around meeting people individually, convincing them in visiting some of the Medallia homes. And in fact, finding out some people who were already suffering from the impacts of long term mercury exposure, someone who has kidney disorders, who has some, you know, mental disorder, neurological disorder, to say, and somebody who gave birth to children with the deformities and so on, so forth. So I think, you know, the big picture started emerging very soon, and people started realizing that, you know, this is like a jigsaw puzzle. And, you know, it was giving a larger, bigger picture to the people as well. It was certainly a daunting, challenge, challenging task. Many of us would have not gotten to that, given the kind of, you know, perplexities involved and also because you're dealing with a global corporation with a lot of money, power and muscle power, and anything could happen to you so people would have left it and move on, but I think this gentleman did a phenomenal job, you know, risking his own life and, and he's lived through I think, not just at that point in time, if you could see that.

15:00

He lived through the campaign, he became part of the day shoe till date he's been he's been driving the campaign the issue in Kodaikanal. Yeah, really, you know, like how your book captures all of the elements, as you said, you know, from the locals, to the regulators to the even the history of Hulu and the company, and to the conclusion where, you know, a Jewelle, you know, has offered settlements, but it just made me think, you know, even though it's been reported that it's the highest amount of settlement, second highest amount of settlement by a corporation in India, it just makes me think that, you know, the effect of this mercury poisoning, you know, is so much more than that settlement, because it's still, you know, you mentioned how it's still around in the environment in religion, which is very common in Indian dishes, and how you know, people are still affected by it by that. So, the story is very far from over. Yeah, it is. In fact, as late as 2020, there was a modeling study done by the Indian Institute of Technology, Iit Hyderabad, which came out with some startling revelations one, they said, this mercury, which is, which is leached into the soil, in the factory site, and the surrounding areas is going to be there for decades, and maybe for centuries, it will continue to act as a source of mercury ambition. So that's the kind of, you know, catastrophe we're dealing with. Even further to that, in 2021, there was another study by anomala universities and one middle group, they found that the mercury level in the water and in the CODEL could I lay correct. Now leak is almost about five to six times more than the normal two years after the factory was shut down this team from the Department of atomic energy, which itself is a story in how they landed in the investigation. So I think this is an parallel event in India, we haven't seen similar issues, you know, maybe the closest one is the Bhopal Gas Tragedy, where we still find milk, the light source and cyanide in the soil, in poor part, but otherwise, I think, you know, this is an unparallel event in India, and therefore, you know, it's, it deserves a lot of attention. Yeah, and your book certainly gives it the attention even though the story is sort of, you know, for the parties involved, closed, and I just made me think of, you know, the viral video Kodaikanal. Next, I think we all saw that the YouTube video, it was customized to the tragedy, but the tune was based on Anaconda by Nicki Minaj. And it was sort of this viral reel that, you know, put a lot of attention to this, but like, you know, how social media works, these things come and go. And now there's your book, of course, which is giving sort of a more nuanced and well rounded insight into the whole thing. But how much effect do these sorts of videos or a book like yours, actually have, you know, how do we ensure that something like this doesn't happen again, but,

18:05

you know, the only way we can ensure that it doesn't happen is by spreading the information, sharing this kind of information to the larger public, maybe from the, you know,

18:16

the children, the youth, and the people,

18:20

you know, bigger than larger than, I think, you know, also there is a awareness level, which needs to be there in every citizen groups, that, you know, I don't want to allow something in my backyard. So you should be careful about what is what is in your surroundings. And if there is something which is going around, you should be vigilant and get involved. So that's the only way we can we can ensure that these kinds of incidents don't happen. And, you know, we've seen in many, many cases in India subsequent to this incident, and subsequent to Bhopal, Gas Tragedy, people getting active and people, you know, the Tuticorin incident where corporate fire, melting factory, whatever those multiple incidents where people became very sensitive about their own surroundings and what's happening in their surrounding, I think that is that something which should be brought into the fold vehemently, and people should be made aware of these kinds of, you know, issues which has happened in the past, and also the rights to defend their land, defend their surroundings. So I think that's the only way probably we could we could ensure that there is no repeat of these kinds of incidents around us. Yeah, I agree. I think I think awareness is important. I was recently on the panel for sort of discussing climate change ontology that I was a part of, and this was exactly what we discussed there that you know, what we can do and we said, Okay, but how effective are these things? And what what is the ultimate effect? Are people just going to join, listen to the talk and then leave or are they actually going to do something? So I do think that these talks are you know, these events do help to a certain extent because a lot of people not even a

20:00

aware of the kind of effects that we have on the environment. And what I actually liked about, you know, this whole process of you writing the book of it is that you know, when you went to Kodaikanal, and you actually noticed that it wasn't the queen of Hill stations anymore, like how you knew it in your university days, and it had actually become a Mercury dump yard, you didn't really rush to write the book, but you actually took your time you spoke to these people help them out and genuinely saw, you know, what could you do to help them right, which brings about the activism part of your journey. And you also told us a very heartbreaking story of one of the victims, right, his name was Christopher Martin colorant. And after he completed his studies, he was just looking for a job, and he found a job and it was a very big deal for him, because he was just 22 he was starting out, and very soon his health started being affected, you know, he started getting talking sensations, then breathlessness then swellings on his body. And eventually, he was hospitalized, you know, so I was actually looking for more stories about people who were affected, because as you said, you know, it was these stories that motivated you to write the story, maybe share us an anecdote of maybe one other person that you met, and whose story really, really urged you to write this book. No, in fact, not one, you know, when you when you land in Kodaikanal, and start talking to people, you will come across multiple stories, and every every person who's worked in the factory, some reasonable period of time will have a story or other to try to talk to you, in the traditional atmosphere. Environment used to be very pristine in 80s, most the time, and the company set it up there. At three, the company came there, in fact, I had my first visit to Kodaikanal as a student in 88. Right, so having visited there in at the charm of correctional never disappeared from my mind. So I always used to think Kodaikanal as a family beautiful place. And it's like, you know, as as it's been called, it's a it's a paradise. So when I found out that this was happening in a place like Kodaikanal, I was really shocked. And then, you know, that really brought me to the candidate over a period of time what happened is it's completely deteriorate deteriorated in effect by this is the golden Mercury, the mercury exposure was one reason but I also the heavy tourist inflow to the city because of the population growth and people searching for too slick and also played to some extent. But I think, you know, like many other tourist locations, we could have kept it to its glory to a large extent, had this immigration not been there. So will when you talk to the ex workers of the factory, you would everyone will tell you some you know, one or the other story, I think the customer model called current story I've detailed out just to I mean, I certainly don't have space to say, you know, talk each and every story, but the 28 people who said that was documented in the case of factory and many of the people who support illnesses of very serious nature, they all have

23:06

their their story, which is very long. One another case, which I mentioned in the book also is the case of a lady called Ruth Priya. And then there was another gentleman whom I'm mentioning that that is very, very shocking, in fact, it it really touched me into the code, he happened to be, you know, joining the factory very early on and then, you know,

23:32

after after a couple of years, he was found to be suffering from cancer and he shuttles from hospital hospital and eventually he dies in a hospital ward, even the president of the ex Workers Union and gentleman called Mahindra. So, he also had a very similar issue, he got into he joined the factory at an early age and then you know, soon he realized that he has an issue with his, you know, reproductive reproductive system. But of all, what was more striking was that despite this happening in the factory, among this 400 500 600 workers, and you can really see, you know, spoofing Venom around the factory, as evaporated McCree over over a long period of time, there has not been any kind of help. So we are a proper epidemiological survey in the society in the in the largest society that has not happened that was really shocking. The, you know, one more aspect of this is you have a, you know, ailment, you have an issue, health issue and you go to hospital, and the doctor will only, you know, diagnose it to the symptoms, you know, he will say, Okay, you have a kidney problem, or, you know, you have cancer, that's it, and they're not going to go into the origin of the disease and how did how did you contract this disease or how did this this disease happened to you?

24:56

So, that was the missing link in this

25:00

A traditional Mercury issue, many people contracted diseases, neurological nephrological reproductive issues because of longest exposure to mercury.

25:13

But there was not any survey or any health survey, which is done to pinpoint their illnesses to the long term exposure to the library. So that was sadly that was really shocking. Yeah, that's very, very shocking. Yeah, no, I was just thinking about this whole hypocrisy, you know, because it's a very serious book. But there was an instance that made me laugh out loud. I mean, just to see, I mean, how ridiculous it was. So you've mentioned in the book that, you know, the CEO of Unilever, Paul, Polman, he'd actually been named as the winner of the champion of the earth award by the UN Environment Program, which is the highest honor bestowed by the UN for achievements in the, you know, environment sector. And on the other hand, he receives a letter to take responsibility for the devastation of Kodak camera, you know, What irony, you know, in your experience of closely following how corporates work, especially, you know, white washing on, and for our listeners, you know, so whitewashing is when an organization covers up or sort of glosses over any scandalous information, you know, sort of when they present biased representation of the facts up so what according to you is their playbook when it comes to these huge catastrophes shall In fact, the current capitalism provides for these kinds of evasion evasion evasive tactics by the corporates. Today, if you look at the largest global corporations, these are not these are not owned by any any, you know, family groups, except in some countries, you will see that some conglomerates and some, you know, family businesses run but otherwise, by and large, the biggest global corporations are run by a new form of capitalism, where the shareholders are not even individual shareholders, because they will be institutional shareholders and serves as the investment groups. But beyond that, you will also have these investment groups, you know, coming from the pension funds, you know, you will know that today, BlackRock, and Vanguard has the largest, fully has the largest investment for portfolios in most, because big corporations, and those investment funds are coming from the pension funds and the pension funds or by the citizens pension. So I think, you know, therefore, the structure of the global corporations have also transformed over the last many decades. And therefore, what's happening is, even if there is a, there is a genuinely thinking company thinking Corporation, which wants to do things in the most righteous way, it's not happening, the executives over there in the top top most according to the company will have a very brief period, two years, three years, four years, and they wanted to, during that period, they wanted to show the highest profit, they want to leave a legacy that's the most, you know, profitable period of the company. So they, you know, the executives competent compete for making the company during the time as the most profitable company, and they cut corners, you know, they don't care about spending for these kinds of compliances or, you know, having a better manufacturing bracket practices and so on. So they cut corners, and which, by the end, make the people suffer, you know, either the communities where the manufacturing process operator or you know, sign some guy, some cases, the product itself, and in some cases, you know, as you would see the waste, the plastic waste being generated through to PET bottles, and so on, make your products in whatever manner, and you're not bothered about what is the kind of packaging and that packaging is going around and create creating havoc in the atmosphere in the environment. So I think cutting corners for making profits is become the norm of the day and people the corporations don't bother about that. And I don't think that I don't, I don't see that pattern changing despite the best efforts by, you know, some of the some of the actions, which is, you know, the UN actions or you know, and no, the NGO actions are concerned citizen actions, and I think it's not probably going to have a serious change in the system, which we operate today. That's very bleak to think about that and you know, most of us are working in corporate or within the system and as just you know, employees or people who work within these corporates.

29:35

You know, we always as Michelle says feel helpless about, you know, our part in all of the all of that, but that's a much sort of larger, you know, topic. One thing that struck me when I was reading the book is that you know, since you talk about two independent parties, you don't bother regulators, Greenpeace, Hulu, history to well, the CEOs, the top leadership of the company, all of those things,

30:00

Do you know how did this book sort of like pass? Legally? Did it go through sort of a legal read? Did you have to cut certain things out? Did you have to adjust certain things?

30:11

Does you know the corporation know about this book? How did it go? Thanks for that question, thank publishing of the book was really challenging. When I first proposed this to an agent, my current agent, and he bought it, he immediately bought it. And then we started working

30:32

together. And he notified the manuscript, the proposal with the top three publishers, and all the three publishers liked the proposal, and they said, they, you know, we would love to work on this project. But soon, we found that, you know, as we get into the details, you know, started sharing the manuscript. And then as they started reading the manuscript, two of them, one after another, two of them dropped out, they said, Look, this, this, this is an explosive stuff, this is something we can't, you know, take a chance on this. I mean, it's, it's large corporations, we don't want to get involved in that. So two of them drop down. And in fact, we were thinking even if the, the even the third part, the third publisher drops out what will what will we do, how do we public publish it? So me and the agent, we were, we were thinking that, you know, what's the next best course, but good part was the third publisher struck with it and they said, Look, you know, we would love to work on this, but we will have to do some legal check. So, they did a legal read of the entire manuscript with a consultant with the legal consult and very, very respected law firm in Delhi. And they came up with a set of

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suggestions, some of them some some suggestions to remove certain parts, some suggestions to

31:56

strengthen the book or the manuscript with citations or indirect references. Once we did that, the publisher started

32:07

working on that editing on the book and trying to put it together. And then once once the final manuscript final copy was ready, they further ran it with a second legal way through their UK legal office. And when maybe because this company is a Dutch Anglo Dutch company, and they wanted to ensure that you know, as per the global you know, procedures, we the book is not violating any norms. So, I think the publisher did an elaborate job in terms of ensuring that whatever we are talking about the book is substance not not not you know, flying the kites and to add on tag you know, when I finished the manuscript to sell most of our 140,000 words, and the final book, we have about 90 95,000 words, so, the rest of it was taught you know, you know, removed some of some of it was removed for the for the purpose of you know, having a strong and you know, factually

33:14

valid book. So, therefore, what you have in the book today, the final book is an unchallengeable and questionable kind of facts and any part of the book which you go and pick up and then you will see that there is a there is a citation or there is a reference. So, there is a

33:31

court order, there is a documentary in a regulatory or a document or something to back that up. So, therefore, if the final book, which has come out is solid, in terms of

33:42

the facts and figures, the publisher has done a long, enormous job, Pan Macmillan has done an enormous job in terms of ensuring that, that, you know, highest norms and Heinz high standard. So, the, the book, that is a fantastic, that's, you know, it should sort of be a case study, I feel, and it just makes me think that, you know, because we're all so much part of the system, and we need, you know, to work with people who have power, who, you know, are these corporates, it just makes it that much harder for all those people, you know, who took a chance on your manuscript, or were protesting or working in the factory, were sort of, you know, raising their voices, because it is very hard to do that, especially when your livelihoods can depend on you know, these are mega mega mega corporations. So, so that takes a lot of courage. So, it really should be a case study. So, are you happy with the final product? Because, you know, it was it was

34:39

in terms of the work in the value addition, which is brought in by palmetto, I think it was, it was fantastic and was pretty nice to work with

34:49

the editorial team from Penn magnet, they

34:52

have no complaints and it's been great. Working with them. Yeah, and I can sort of see

35:00

Have you know why people were, you know, afraid to take a chance? Because again, you know, talking about hypocrisy, there was this whole issue about how within three days the entire narrative changed, right? So so what we've read in the book is on seventh March, they denied all allegations, right? When the people called the butcher re, who was the Corporate Communication Manager, back then in Mumbai, they actually denied everything. And then within a day, on Eighth March, they temporarily suspended work at the factory and admitted that some of the waste might have left the factory. And this is in quotes, due to a small human error. And very few days later, on 10th March, the board's assessment actually finds out that 5.3 tonnes of mercury containing glass waste have been spread around, right. So now what what is interesting here is, you know, because of all this, because, you know, on eight March, all the operations were seized. Now, people were out of jobs, right. So what happens to them? So out of the 129, workers, who had actually, you know, did not have a job, what they were given in lieu of that was actually they were transferred right and transferred, where to go drop in the north, right? Imagine West Kodaikanal and West Gujarat, they've had to leave their families, they had to do, you know, sort of sacrifice everything and go, and if they declined to move, they were sort of given a VRS as as reparation. Right, so most of them accept it. But I was really curious about those who did not accept it. Right, you did mention that there were certain people who stood up. So what happened to those people who didn't go to bootstrap? Who didn't take it up? What would the other options, see this is a pattern of action, which you would find in most corporates, you know, when there is a retrenchment happens, we have, you know, we keep seeing these kinds of regret, retrenchments, in the in the corporation these days,

36:49

and how baseness, and how heartless the organization behaves in such situations, so they just want to remove someone, so they go, they go Brookley, remove the people. So I think what we've seen in Kodaikanal is a repeat of that, where the company wanted to remove people from the organization. So therefore, this they transfer the people to a location where the people obviously won't accept it.

37:19

I think at the end, you would see that most of the people accepted the settlement, rather than taking the transplant, you know, once you don't accept the transfer, then the obvious next choices, you know, we will give you some payment, take the payment and then leave the company. So that's what happened in the, in the case of the transfer that happened in 139 employees, who were there all the roles at the time of shutting down the factory, I don't think there's any other way the company would have behaved in this kind of situation. As you know, you mentioned they may have taken the settlement. But, you know, the story continues. I also wanted to ask, you know, there's so many books and films about the environment, you have an tomboyish who's not buying scores as climate fiction. The movie, you know, just reminded when you made a reference to that, you know, movie called Erin Brockovich where Julia Roberts is an activist who discovers that in her community, you know, there's been a lot of sort of toxic materials and then starts a campaign.

38:24

But it keeps happening. So what kinds of books and movies you know,

38:29

about climate? Do you really like? No, I think some of the references which I have made in the book, are very specific to the issue. The drain or the Johnny Depp's Minamata in

38:44

Erin Brockovich obviously, because we I found some parallel of what happened in Kodaikanal. And what happened in the Erin Brockovich story in the US, asked me do you would see that globally, there is a

38:58

resurgence of, you know, we worship on environment related stories, and one of the best example is the Chernobyl

39:07

series, which came out in 2019 or 20. Some of these stories of light are being told in a manner which people are really liking it and it is also therefore it is also creating a greater sense of awareness among the people who are watching it.

39:23

But unfortunately, when it comes to situations where you are confronting a, you know, real corporation, you know, the producers and the directors take a backseat in in doing those kinds of stories. So I was curious, because, you know, regarding the Bhopal Gas Tragedy, but you also mentioned, right, there are a lot of books written about it. And the most recent is also sort of, like, you know, after 30 years of the incident, what is the narrative right now? Right. So, I mean, apart from that, sort of that tragedy or that book, which are the other books or sort of films in India that you have noticed and that you think more people need to see. Yes,

40:00

You mentioned some of the top coaches work, I think those those are,

40:06

you know, good in creating awareness.

40:10

And, and on a global scale, I think on the current level,

40:16

there are some very good book which came out in the recent past. One is, you know, climate change, there are plenty of books. And in fact, I, Greta tunberg, you know, the young Swedish activist has come out with a, you know, editor of, she's edited a set of

40:36

completion from different people that's doing a great service, in fact, to making people a lot more aware about the environmental, the climate change challenges, up to date.

40:48

And I think, you know, even, we have a very good book, which came out from my own publisher, after my book, which is about margin lands, I think that that's, again, a must read for anyone who's interested in

41:01

knowing about the extent of damage which is being created in India, or the cause of climate change. So, I think, you know, there are some publishers globally also, you will find that there are some publishers, who are who are very dedicated to getting into these kinds of issues. And we have seen, you know, some of some of my

41:25

Of course, not related to climate change, or industrial pollution, but I think all

41:30

corporate crimes and

41:33

those stuff, one receiver has a series of book, which is very, very useful for anyone who wants to get into the corporate crimes and how

41:43

agriculture is playing how work for the corporation setting in agriculture for a right. So different kinds of this is a this is a huge topic, and you know, different, different different aspects. So, as you get into it, and you start exploring it, you will find that a, you know, immense trash of books, which is their reliance. But I would, I would also encourage people who really want to document issues in India, which is, in fact, these kinds of documentation. So, you know, not not so many in other parts of the country as there are, and we may have an exception of there is no one deny Shiva outs in the letter, but I think

42:29

people should start documenting these kinds of things more often than otherwise. And yeah, I just have one thing to add. And we've got a very interesting thought that how people themselves can sort of document things around them. And I just wanted to understand, like, do you know, of any legal protection that that, let's say, like, let's say, as a common citizen, okay, so I've noticed there's something happening around me, and I would love to document it and put up a short film on YouTube. So is there a some sort of protection that that we get? Or, or is there anything in a way that would, you know, encourage people to sort of document and put it up, there is protection, which is flowing from article 21, your freedom of expression, and there is processes by whereby you can access documents through a right to information, RTI. But beyond these, these two, you certainly need to put your skin out, I think it is, it's not sad, it's not something, you know,

43:23

red carpet scenario, you certainly need to, you know, take a bit of risk in doing that, as long as you're talking about a truth and the truth is supported by facts and figures, I don't think you need you really need to worry about what you're doing. And certainly there will be people who may not like your, you know, Revelations or discoveries, or who may not like your book or your home or like your manuscript. So be it I think, you know, you have a you have a duty you have a responsibility if you're dealing in such topics and such issues, you have a bound bounden duty to tell the people what you have come, you know, come across what do you learn on on a particular issue or an event and don't expect for for specific production for anyone. It is certainly not there. Beyond freedom of expression. And beyond, you know, copyright of course, if you're if you have

44:19

a well documented, well researched and well supported book, then you you you have a copyright and you can have a copyright. And that's, that's a production to some extent. But beyond that, I don't think you could expect anything in a very legal way in our current society. Okay, but that makes sense that, you know, what you are putting out there should be supported by facts and the research is important. And thank you also for the book recommendations, I think, you know, it's very brave of, you know, those people who had a lot of hard work, you know, your book is so thorough, that you put it all together, the research, the involvement in the community, all of those things, margin lands also on my list, and I actually

45:00

Read the intro and I was just amazed by the amount of work that has gone into this book in terms of you know, the author going and living in these communities. And, you know, years and years of research that, you know, she's done and, and authors like you have done. So it's really great for us to talk to you as well and for for our listeners to get that context. So before we end the interview, we have our last section, which is the rapid fire round where you have to answer in one word or one line. So let's begin. So one word you would use to describe the earth in the next 10 years?

45:37

House? Okay. All right. One reason that shit is still happening.

45:44

callousness of the administration carelessness of the politicians, okay. One product you think we can live without? Plastics? Okay. One absolute must anyone should do if you're looking to become a climate activist. Knowledge read? Okay, one destination you would call relatively beyond untouched by corruption or pollution.

46:10

Yeah, I would say.

46:13

Antarctic is probably the only location that

46:19

Yeah. Okay. The most toxic or polluted place in India, according to you, apart from Kodaikanal? It's no by no doubt, Powell, was known as the Queen of hesitations if you had to give it a tag now, what would it be? What do I call it? It's called it can be called as hell of mercury. Oh, wow. Yes. Okay. One line from a hate mail that you received after publishing the book. We will see, I think, the mini the multiple, but

46:52

probably the most remembered one is, we will see you. Oh, my God. That's

47:00

scary. Yeah. So what are you working on next? So I have multiple things. I know I have a book which is coming in August next year,

47:10

which is about India's vaccine history. 150 years of India's vaccine history,

47:17

to 2020, the COVID vaccines and how some of the global corporations have played havoc with the lives of people.

47:26

Wow, I definitely want to pick that up. I mean, especially now, you know, since you just passed over this pandemic, I think it's more relevant than ever. So that is very, very exciting. Can't wait to read that one as well. And thank you so much for this interview. I think it was one of the most unique books that I've read, it was very different from what you know, we usually measure and I pick up and do certainly very eye opening.

47:53

Obviously, you know, distressing but also hopeful that more people will become more aware and then more action can be taken. So thank you so much for your insights. Thanks. Thanks, data. Thanks. Thank you.

48:06

So here we are, where the end of yet another journey into the many worlds of Books and Beyond with bound. I'm Tara candy wall. I'm Michelle D'costa. And this podcast is created by bout a company that helps you grow through stories. Find us at sound India or all social media platforms. So tune in every Wednesday if you live, eat and breathe books and join us as we discover more revolutionary books and peek into the lives and minds of some truly brilliant authors from India and South Asia. And don't forget to keep your love for stories alive for books and beyond.